pogi Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 If God doesn't exactly see the future as if it has already been played out (even though D&C 130:7 says he does), how does he show the future to prophets as if it has already been played out? What does "seer" mean to you? I still would like to know the answer to this question.
Ahab Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 I still would like to know the answer to this question.My guess is that he would say it's something like a Sherlock Holmes fight scene, where he can see how a certain series of moves would play out before any fighting got started. Like that scene in the last movie where he thought about fighting Moriarty but then decided not to go through with it. It's not that I don't understand Rob. It's an interesting idea. Just wrong is all.
strappinglad Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 God sent Jonah to preach repentance to Ninevah. He was to tell them that unless they repented,they would be destroyed. Jonah didn't want to go.He figured it was a fool's errand and that he might get killed in the process. Jonah was surprised to find that they heeded the message and repented. God knew they would? Noah spent what,120 years preaching repentance to the people? They were warned that they would be destroyed. They didn't repent. God knew they wouldn't? Then why try for 120 years if all that was needed was a couple of years warning and then down comes the water? Did Ninevah get all that much time to repent? Nope.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 God sent Jonah to preach repentance to Ninevah. He was to tell them that unless they repented,they would be destroyed. Jonah didn't want to go.He figured it was a fool's errand and that he might get killed in the process. Jonah was surprised to find that they heeded the message and repented. God knew they would? Noah spent what,120 years preaching repentance to the people? They were warned that they would be destroyed. They didn't repent. God knew they wouldn't? Then why try for 120 years if all that was needed was a couple of years warning and then down comes the water? Did Ninevah get all that much time to repent? Nope. Yes, God knew. Just like he knew that the Jews would not repent or come unto Christ, and just like he knows that they will eventually repent and come unto Christ. Just like he knew that Laman and Lemuel would not repent. He knew that the Nephites would not repent, and that the Lamanties would destroy the Nephites. He knew that the gospel would be restored to the Lamanites in the last days by means of the gentiles. I could go on for days. How could he know all of this and not know that the people of Noah would not repent and be flooded? Do you really think that he thought there might be a chance in avoiding the flood? Noah's teaching was necessary for justice to have its way. Why the 120 years? Perhaps Noah needed to learn something, I don't know. Perhaps it simply took that long to teach everybody before justice could take its coarse in a perfectly just way. Who knows?
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 Maybe it would help you, or help me, if you laid out an example to illustrate why God can't know every particular about the future. Let's pick up on that example you used about your anger, for example. Sometimes you get angry and sometimes you don't. When you don't, why is it that you don't? What are ALL of the things you now know about that trigger an angry emotion from you? If you don't know or can't think of every trigger right now, God does know, even if you aren't aware of it now. He knows at what point you will become angry and when you're not quite to that point. And he also knows the things that will make you smile for some particualar reason, or when you will be sad, or just a little bit frustrated. Now let's introduce another person into the picture with you. He has arrived at a particular place, with particular past experiences, and he has his own particular range of emotions that are triggered by whatever triggers them. If you don't know the ins and outs of all of that, God does anyway, so he knows how the 2 of you will interact with each other. So what exactly is there that you think is too complicated for God to already know about??? The fact that you don't know how God could already know everything there is to know about you and some other person doesn't mean God doens't know everything there is to know and consider about the two of you. It only means you don't know everything that God knows. Lets put it this way- Suppose I had a pair of dice in a cup and I am going to roll them a hundred times in a row. To test Gods foreknowledge He first writes out all 100 sequences exactly as they will fall. I then set out to roll. If its true that God could see exactly what each dice roll is before they all happen then this means He would know precisely how I chose to shake the dice each time, how long I chose to shake them, how high or low the cup was each time, at what force I shake them, what force I release them, how I pick them up each time, etc. I knowing I am trying to upset the count will intentionally try something bizarre each time and always keep it different each time so that no two rolls are alike. I have to ask myself this- If I do this dice roll sequence a million times of a 100 rolls and it is always just as God knew beforehand then I think it would be rather safe to say that my actions are running on a program and that I truly have no free will. To take this one step farther we have to back it back up to the case of Lucifer. If it were true that God knew beforehand that Lucifer would fall and become Satan- no matter what, then Lucifer is predestined to fall just as all of us are all predestined for either heaven or hell- no matter what. If this is the case I want to represent Lucifer before the bar of the Gods and I will win my case. If it can be shown that Lucifer is predestined to fall then God is evil and intentionally creates some of his children to eternal states of misery. If this be the case then God is dethroned for not being just. On a separate point, God would also be dethroned for lying. 1
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 I still would like to know the answer to this question. A seer can see all things as they were, now are, and will be to the extent they can be known. Lets say I wanted to see myself two minutes into the future. Upon seeing my actions, am I thus then locked in to do exactly as I have seen myself act? If I see myself going and getting a glass of milk I may decide instead to get a glass of water instead. But if it were true that I couldnt change exactly what I was going to do then I create the ultimate paradox in that I could look into the seer stone two minutes ahead of myself and do just what I am doing exactly as I see it being played but then who is making the choice- myself or the figment person in the future? This creates the paradox because decisions can only be made in the present and it is the present that causes the future not the other way around. Our Latter day prophets are anointed as seers and yet how many times have I heard them say they werent sure on something pertaining to futurity...that they would go forth on faith. There are certain events that God will indeed cause to happen- things that are vital to the plan of salvation. There are also things that will happen just because of the natural man and his natural actions. These have all been prophesied to happen because it was inevitable due to the natural man effect. Just as I can see and picture myself doing a known operation at work before it happens so too are seers able to see future events that are planned or inevitable to happen. What a seer cannot see are the exact improbable actions of choice such as being able to tell exactly how many steps I will take when I go to the store nowing I am going to alter my steps to try to throw the seer off.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 it is the present that causes the future not the other way around. I have never said otherwise. I don't think that we are going to agree, and that is fine. I would be willing to bet that even the general authorities do not see eye to eye on this.
webbles Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Then how did Nephi actually witness Christ going through with it in vision? He actually saw the future, which is where the term "seer" comes from. Prophecies are not predictions. God is not gambling with our future and salvation based on probabilities and predictions. Here are some good scriptures that afirm the foreknowledge of God:http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/god-foreknowledge-ofSo Christ was predestined to go through the atonement. He didn't have a choice. Is that really what you are saying? Because that is how it looks to me.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) So Christ was predestined to go through the atonement. He didn't have a choice. Is that really what you are saying? Because that is how it looks to me.That would be a better question for Nephi, I didn't see the vision. Jesus was foreordained according to the foreknowledge of God. That is not the same thing as predestination. God's foreknowledge does not rob us of agency. Jesus knew, for example, that he would be betrayed by Judas, does that mean that Jesus caused Judas to betray him? Of course not. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/12/i-have-a-question Edited December 4, 2013 by pogi
Robert F. Smith Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Do you disagree? My answer was sincere and I gave you a rep point. Why would you ask whether I disagree?
Robert F. Smith Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 .............................................. Would any of us be willing to give up what we have now for a different future if we could go back and change the past? Right now our agency is limited, we are in the bonds of Satan - that was what the war was over - to limit our agency, that is what sin and ignorance does, it limits our agency, but we are gaining experience... Why did Adam only transgress instead of sin through his choice? because he did not have a full knowledge? and hopefully it will be similar with us, we don't have a full knowledge, so our choices will only be transgressions? The university of life is a harsh crucible, but I can't see any other way to gain experience - and the knowledge that comes with it. In the end, we will have full use of our agency, we won't have to worry about our future or our past, and that will be a beautiful thing. ............................................................ I know a number of people who wouldn't change a thing. For, despite some setbacks and the usual difficulties of life, on balance, it was a positive experience.In my own case, I cannot say the same. Due to ignorance and sheer stupidity. I have made enough bad decisions to lead me to wish that I could do it over again.I keep in mind the old Jewish saying: "Too soon ve get oldt; too late ve get shmart."
webbles Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 That would be a better question for Nephi, I didn't see the vision. Jesus was foreordained according to the foreknowledge of God. That is not the same thing as predestination. God's foreknowledge does not rob us of agency. Jesus knew, for example, that he would be betrayed by Judas, does that mean that Jesus caused Judas to betray him? Of course not. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/12/i-have-a-questionI know the difference between foreordination and predestination. But when you say that "He actually saw the future, which is where the term "seer" comes from. Prophecies are not predictions." that makes it much more predestination-like. In the link you posted it has the statement:There is no divine compulsion to ensure that a person who is foreordained to a particular calling will fulfill his or her tasks.Nothing compelled Christ to go through the Atonement. He could have chosen not to go through with it. If He had, then the prophecy would have been unfulfilled and we would be in really dire straits.
changed Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) My answer was sincere and I gave you a rep point. Why would you ask whether I disagree?Oh good, sorry, I don't know how to see who gives me which rep points, thank you! I know a number of people who wouldn't change a thing. For, despite some setbacks and the usual difficulties of life, on balance, it was a positive experience.In my own case, I cannot say the same. Due to ignorance and sheer stupidity. I have made enough bad decisions to lead me to wish that I could do it over again.I keep in mind the old Jewish saying: "Too soon ve get oldt; too late ve get shmart."Mistakes keep us humble though, allow us to have more genuine empathy for others who make mistakes, give us a greater appreciation of everything that is good... not trying to encourage anyone to sin or anything, but there's more joy in heaven over one sinner, than the 99 who needed no repentance (Luke 15:7) The past is known and set in stone, and free will exists in the past... the future is known and set in stone too, and there will be free will in the future too, at least that's my opinion of it. Edited December 4, 2013 by changed
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 But when you say that "He actually saw the future, which is where the term "seer" comes from. See 1 Nephi 11. I'm not making this up. "The office of "seer" extends that divine Endowment to a capacity for envisioning future and past." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Seer Prophecies are not predictions." that makes it much more predestination-like. That is not predestination like. They are not predictions, they are prophecies - foretelling of actual events that will indeed happen. There is no chance or probabilities involved in prophecy by the Spirit of God. Predestination is where God authors and causes the future events, prophecy is where he simply reveals them as they will be authored and caused by our own will. Nothing compelled Christ to go through the Atonement. He could have chosen not to go through with it. If He had, then the prophecy would have been unfulfilled and we would be in really dire straits. Yep, but God's prophecies do not go unfulfilled, that would make him a lier and would make his prophets false.
webbles Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Yep, but God's prophecies do not go unfulfilled, that would make him a lier and would make his prophets false. Ok, and the reason that His prophecies do not go unfulfilled is He works to make them happen. Just because a prophecy is made doesn't make it inevitable. We can make choices that will cause that prophecy not to happen. Take Jonah's prophecy. It didn't happen. The people repented. In the case of Christ, that is a very important part of the plan of salvation and God did all He could to make sure that it happened.
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 I think one cannot dismiss that God gives promises/ prophecy a lot of times that have two different outcomes depending upon our choices. Does God know for sure we will only pick the one and not the other but gives us the apparent free will?
CV75 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 I still would like to know the answer to this question.Something to consider, and perhaps leading to what can and cannot be known about the future, D&C 130:7 says, “all things for their glory,” which refers to all the things that have constituted, and do and will constitute the program of immortality and eternal life (Moses 1:39). This system, or course, of immortality and eternal life is the “one eternal round” of God and is therefore “continually before the Lord,” meaning it never ends.It could even be said that all the Lord’s references to His knowledge in Moses Chapter 1 (vs. 6, 35) are in terms of the present, not the past or future. His references to what He created (vs. 8, 32, 33) are naturally all in the past. His references to what He will do in the future (vs. 4, 40, 41) are based on faith.
Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Lets put it this way- Suppose I had a pair of dice in a cup and I am going to roll them a hundred times in a row. To test Gods foreknowledge He first writes out all 100 sequences exactly as they will fall. I then set out to roll. If its true that God could see exactly what each dice roll is before they all happen then this means He would know precisely how I chose to shake the dice each time, how long I chose to shake them, how high or low the cup was each time, at what force I shake them, what force I release them, how I pick them up each time, etc. I knowing I am trying to upset the count will intentionally try something bizarre each time and always keep it different each time so that no two rolls are alike. I have to ask myself this- If I do this dice roll sequence a million times of a 100 rolls and it is always just as God knew beforehand then I think it would be rather safe to say that my actions are running on a program and that I truly have no free will.No, it is not that you have no free will, but that God knows how you are going to choose to do with your own free will. His knowledge of what you will do doesn't alter what you will choose. To take this one step farther we have to back it back up to the case of Lucifer. If it were true that God knew beforehand that Lucifer would fall and become Satan- no matter what, then Lucifer is predestined to fall just as all of us are all predestined for either heaven or hell- no matter what.No, it's not no matter what, but because of what he chose to do. God knowing what he would choose doesn't equate to God making his choices for him. Quite the contrary, God knew Satan would do what he did regardless of what God wanted Satan to do. If this is the case I want to represent Lucifer before the bar of the Gods and I will win my case.Silly man. Go ahead and try it to see how far it will get you. I'm sure Satan would be rooting for you, though. Have fun with that. If it can be shown that Lucifer is predestined to fall then God is evil and intentionally creates some of his children to eternal states of misery. If this be the case then God is dethroned for not being just. On a separate point, God would also be dethroned for lying.Wow. And all of this just because you don't understand how God can know everything you will choose to do. He even knew you were going to say this. Hopefully he also knows you will change your mind later when you see the light, I hope, and you realize you were wrong about this. 1
CV75 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 P.S. I think the prophecies of the future are revelations of the Lord’s plan. Knowing His children, and the bounds and habitations He sets them in (Acts 17:26), He has faith that there will always be a sufficient particle of faith in the light that Christ sheds upon the Earth (D&C 88) to carry out His plan (Acts 17:27). Note the use of the words “should” and “if” in relation to His hopes for His children. I also believe that He has the power to make course corrections when necessary (for some unforeseen reason!)
Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 A seer can see all things as they were, now are, and will be to the extent they can be known. Lets say I wanted to see myself two minutes into the future. Upon seeing my actions, am I thus then locked in to do exactly as I have seen myself act? If I see myself going and getting a glass of milk I may decide instead to get a glass of water instead. But if it were true that I couldnt change exactly what I was going to do then I create the ultimate paradox in that I could look into the seer stone two minutes ahead of myself and do just what I am doing exactly as I see it being played but then who is making the choice- myself or the figment person in the future? This creates the paradox because decisions can only be made in the present and it is the present that causes the future not the other way around.Our Latter day prophets are anointed as seers and yet how many times have I heard them say they werent sure on something pertaining to futurity...that they would go forth on faith. There are certain events that God will indeed cause to happen- things that are vital to the plan of salvation. There are also things that will happen just because of the natural man and his natural actions. These have all been prophesied to happen because it was inevitable due to the natural man effect. Just as I can see and picture myself doing a known operation at work before it happens so too are seers able to see future events that are planned or inevitable to happen. What a seer cannot see are the exact improbable actions of choice such as being able to tell exactly how many steps I will take when I go to the store nowing I am going to alter my steps to try to throw the seer off.The thing about seers is that they see what God sees only when God helps them to see as he sees. It's not an all the time thing. Similar to how they are revelators of God's will only when God reveals his will and thoughts to them.
CV75 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 P. P. S Which brings to mind that faith and hope are two of God's attributes and are not perfect knowledge.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Ok, and the reason that His prophecies do not go unfulfilled is He works to make them happen. Now it sounds like you are saying that Jesus was coerced. What about the prophecy of the destruction of the Nephites, did God work to make that happen? What about the prophecy that Judas would betray Christ, was that God's handy work? To say that God "makes" his prophecies come true strips us of agency. Take Jonah's prophecy. It didn't happen. The people repented. In the case of Christ, that is a very important part of the plan of salvation and God did all He could to make sure that it happened. You will have to show me the prophecy that didn't come true. I remember God telling Jonah to go tell the people to repent. Any doubt that Jonah may have had is not prophetic.
CV75 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 P.P.P.S.Here's a great example from D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice [God's or an angel's] declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 I know a number of people who wouldn't change a thing. For, despite some setbacks and the usual difficulties of life, on balance, it was a positive experience.In my own case, I cannot say the same. Due to ignorance and sheer stupidity. I have made enough bad decisions to lead me to wish that I could do it over again.I keep in mind the old Jewish saying: "Too soon ve get oldt; too late ve get shmart."But all of your bad choices have helped you to learn some valuable lessons. And it's still not too late for you to benefit from what you have learned.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 I think one cannot dismiss that God gives promises/ prophecy a lot of times that have two different outcomes depending upon our choices. Does God know for sure we will only pick the one and not the other but gives us the apparent free will? I don't dismiss the fact that God teaches us about the consequences of our choices by showing the outcomes. I think it is also important not to dismiss that God also gives very specific and definite prophecies with singular outcomes. Read revelations.
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