Towards A Better Understanding Of Agency

[Ahab]

Okay I've thought about it some more and the idea that there are some things God can't know is growing on me.  I still think he is aware of every possible outcome and everything there is in existence, at least generally speaking, but maybe he doesn't know every little thing about what will happen in the future, like how someone will turn out later in life.   Just that there are only so many possibiliites about how a person can turn out.

 

So yeah, maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to surprise him a little.  Maybe I'll turn out to be a little better than he thought I would, in the past, or better than he thinks I will now.  And maybe someday he'll say something like this to me on the day of my judgment:

 

Well done, my good and faithful servant.  I didn't think you would turn out so well.  I'm very impressed!

[pogi]

Well when you have legions of angels at your command and these angels can and do influence people in the mortal world then all things are possible.

 

Possible yes.  Certain, no.  When you add the element of man into the mix, your probability goes way down, and yet prophecies are said to be certain when given in and by the spirit.

[pogi]

God has to have faith in us otherwise we have no agency. When God created Lucifer he had faith that he would be eventually exalted just like the rest of his children. At some point Lucifer chose to become evil. This was after he was already in high authoritive position in heaven. At some point after Lucifers creation, but before he became totally evil, God probably was able to see where things were headed. Up to that point though God had faith in him otherwise he would of never let him attain an authority position in heaven to more easily lead his children astray.

 

Then God's faith was false.  Lucifer obviously was not true.  The only reason that we can have faith in God is because He is an unchanging eternal truth.

[CV75]

I said "short of coercion." 

You said: "it sounds like you are saying that God influences many people (in case one falls through) short of coercing them to bring about his plan..." Divine influence does not even approach coercion, so I'm not sure why you are even putting the two together in describing how God deals with His children. I am not suggesting that at all.

 

God does not have faith in us.  You are diluting faith into realms of fallibility.  There are some that will not return, does he have faith in them too?

“…men are, that they might have joy” is an expression of God’s faith in our capacity to so choose. His commands are expressions of faith in our capacity to choose to keep them. That many are called is an act of faith in our capacity to respond (but few are chosen after they have made their choices). This capacity is contained in the principle of agency, and where we possess it, it is truly ours alone to exercise. He has faith in our capacity and agency to choose to obey Him through the merits of Christ. Whether we do or not reveals to Him the knowledge of our choice. Otherwise He would not be proving us “to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command…” The fact that He is yet to see the results of our testing indicates He does not yet know the results and is exercising faith. If you are happier thinking this means He has no faith in us, fine; He has faith in the operation of our agency, and as I explained from D&C 93, where agency is existence, our agency is synonymous with who we are as existing beings.

[Ahab]

Faith is an assurance, or in other words, a state of being sure about something.  Like when someone feels sure they are right about something.  It's called faith but it's not necessarily based on the truth even though someone can feel sure that what they feel sure of is true.

 

So yes God has faith in us, meaning he is sure about us, and his faith in us or feeling of assurance about is at the level of perfect knowledge.  He knows and feels sure that some of us will have received a portion of celestial glory at the time when we will be judged for our works.  And he also knows and feels sure that some of us will not have received any glory or intelligence of the celestial order and thus will be better suited as a place for people with less glory,or intelligence.

 

He's sure about a lot of things, and what he's sure of is true, and to the point of it being perfect knowledge.  Not that it's all good news, although maybe later things will get better and better for people who were not willing to receive as much intelligence as they could have received simply by believing and putting to good use what he has told us.

[Rob Osborn]

Then God's faith was false.  Lucifer obviously was not true.  The only reason that we can have faith in God is because He is an unchanging eternal truth.

God had faith in him as he did righteously. God's faith of Lucifer becoming like God waned until there was no more faith. One can have faith in something that doesnt go as planned or turns out to be false.

[pogi]

The idea that God does not know what future choices we will make is completely irreconcilable with the doctrines of the atonement.  Not only has He already atoned for our future choices, He has experienced every emotional and physical pain that we will ever experience because of our future choices.  He knows exactly what we will choose through the atonement.

 

If God only knows every potential future outcome without a certain knowledge of a definite path, then His atonement would have to cover every single possible and not actual angle.  No, he actually felt my future pain as it will indeed happen.  It is as real and sure to Him as the present.  God  did not suffer and pay the consequences for possible sins.  He did not suffer for potential physical pains and emotional suffering.  What He experienced was a result of every actual (not potential) choice we will ever make.

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[CV75]

The idea that God does not know what future choices we will make is completely irreconcilable with the doctrines of the atonement.  Not only has He already atoned for our future choices, He has experienced every emotional and physical pain that we will ever experience because of our choices. 

 

God  did not suffer and pay the consequences for possible sins.  He did not suffer for potential physical pains and emotional suffering.  What He experienced was a result of every actual (not potential) choice we will ever make.

But another way to look at it is that since Christ was already known to be "more intelligent than they all", the plan was that the maximal extent of His personal suffering would have to exceed all of our capacities combined. The capacity to sin and to obey is proportional to intelligence, and this is what He suffered for, so that we would someday have the same capacity as He as we advance from grace to grace as He did.

There are so many aspects to the Atonement than just covering punishment for sin. It enables us to progress and strenghtens us:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/03/the-enabling-power-of-the-atonement

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/04/the-atonement-and-the-journey-of-mortality

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/11/in-the-strength-of-the-lord

If the Lord's Atonement is aimed at making us what we can become, it has to more than account for the sins we commited and could commit; it has to advance us from our level of intelligence in the first estate to the level of godhood in the resurrecetd estate. So the Lord's suffering (and I include work and efort) is vastly greater than many imagine. So what the Lord does know is what it takes to exalt all of us, and this is what He accomplished. It does not mean He knows how He will judge each of His children at the Last Day.

[pogi]

There are so many aspects to the Atonement than just covering punishment for sin. It enables us to progress and strenghtens us:

 

No doubt.

 

But another way to look at it is that since Christ was already known to be "more intelligent than they all", the plan was that the maximal extent of His personal suffering would have to exceed all of our capacities combined. The capacity to sin and to obey is proportional to intelligence, and this is what He suffered for, so that we would someday have the same capacity as He as we advance from grace to grace as He did.

 

To say that Christ's suffering exceeded all of our combined capacities is an injustice.  He did not experience the suffering for future sins, sickness, pains, afflictions, hunger, thirst, and fatigue that did not and will not really happen.  He did not intimately experience the real suffering for an unreal future choices or event.  For Christ to suffer for a sin that I never will commit, but potentially may commit, is a total and complete injustice.   It is like sending a man to prison for a crime that never was or will be committed. 

 

Christ's suffering was not some impersonal, ambiguous and obscure suffering based on a "capacity" for sin which exceeded our combined "capacity" for suffering on the pain scale of 1-10.  What exactly was the extra pain and suffering, and what caused it?  The "capacity" for sin is no cause for suffering or punishment.  It would be totally unjust to punish a man for a capacity to do wrong.  Was it just some ambiguous generalized pain thrown in for good measure?

 

No, he actually felt my fractured ankle before it happened when I was 9.  He actually felt it exactly as I felt it.  He knew it would happen.  He knew I would make the choice to go skiing that day, and that I would make the choice at the last minute to go off a jump, he knew my balance would be off, he knew that I would not tighten my ski boots tight enough, etc. etc. 

 

“he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people… That his bowels may be filled with mercy, … that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:11-12).

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

The idea that God does not know what future choices we will make is completely irreconcilable with the doctrines of the atonement.  Not only has He already atoned for our future choices, He has experienced every emotional and physical pain that we will ever experience because of our future choices.  He knows exactly what we will choose through the atonement.

 

If God only knows every potential future outcome without a certain knowledge of a definite path, then His atonement would have to cover every single possible and not actual angle.  No, he actually felt my future pain as it will indeed happen.  It is as real and sure to Him as the present.  God  did not suffer and pay the consequences for possible sins.  He did not suffer for potential physical pains and emotional suffering.  What He experienced was a result of every actual (not potential) choice we will ever make.

The plan of salvation was already in place before Satan and 1/3 the hosts of heaven fell. Christ has suffered the penalty of a damned soul which was an excruciating physical and spiritual pain.  He didn't actually suffer every single pain of every sin ever to be committed. There are countless ways to sin. Christ suffered the penalty of one man- what he would or must suffer. Christ thus atones for each of us individually. As such, if we do not repent we must suffer just like Christ- the penalty of "one" sinner, not all sinners or all sins.

[pogi]

He didn't actually suffer every single pain of every sin ever to be committed. 

 

Do we belong to the same church?

 

CFR please.

 

Here is my reference - "Because He suffered “the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam” (2 Nephi 9:21)

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

Duplicate 

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

Do we belong to the same church?

 

CFR please.

 

Here is my reference - "Because He suffered “the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam” (2 Nephi 9:21)

 

 

 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

 17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

 18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink— (D&C 19:15-18)

 

 

Read the bold. If man remains unrepentent at the end of the millennium he will be resurrected and then suffer what Christ suffered. the people who will be suffering will only suffer for their own sins but that suffering is the same suffering Christ suffered- the same exact, that is required of a "sinner".

 

Christ undoubtedly took upon him the sins of the world meaning that he took upon the penalty of a sinner as an individual and as what an individual must suffer. When we come to the bar of Christ his individual suffering covers the penalty for an individual sufferer only. Thus by proxy each of us can take upon the name of Christ and be saved because Christ suffered the penalty of a sinner. There is more to it in the symbol or metaphor of Christ being bought for the price of one slave (30 pieces of silver) which basically is symbolized to mean that only the price of one sinner in hell would be required for the penalty to be paid. Otherwise they would have to have given Judas 30 pieces of silver times all the people ever to live.

 

Christ suffered "death" in the flesh which is what all men will suffer.-

 

11  For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. (D&C 18:11)

 

 

What can be gained from this? That Christ paid the penalty of an individual sinner by suffering the penalty for a sinner. Thus, if we do not repent we suffer the same exact torments and pains that Christ himself suffered in both body and spirit. Christ did not have to actually cycle through every single person and suffer for each individual sin of that person one by one upon the cross. We are talking trillions and trillions of sins and the time required for that process and agony goes far beyond the time allotted. No, Christ suffered the penalty of just one sinner and no more.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Rob Osborn

[pogi]

I wanted a reference for this:

 

He didn't actually suffer every single pain of every sin ever to be committed. 

 

You have not provided it. 

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

I wanted a reference for this:

 

 

You have not provided it. 

11  For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. (D&C 18:11)

 

[pogi]

Christ undoubtedly took upon him the sins of the world...

 

No, Christ suffered the penalty of just one sinner and no more.

 

Hmm...trying to figure this one out.

 

What can be gained from this? That Christ paid the penalty of an individual sinner by suffering the penalty for a sinner. 

 

Are you asking me what can be gained from Christ paying the penalty of an individual sinner (me)?

[Rob Osborn]

Because He has already suffered cannot possibly mean that he suffered for each one of your sins you committ- no more and no less. That means you are predestined to committ "x" amounts of sins- no more and no less and that he knows perfectly all the times you will sin- no more and no less.

 

Thats ridiculous!

[pogi]

Rob Osborn, on 06 Dec 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

He didn't actually suffer every single pain of every sin ever to be committed. 

 

11  For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. (D&C 18:11)

 

Is that your final answer?

[CV75]

It is like sending a man to prison for a crime that never was or will be committed.

That is whole point! He overcame even that!

You seem to be missing the equally essential elements of the Atonement that enable and strengthen us so as to increase our innate capacity to the level of exaltation. Even with all our "actual" sins remitted, we still lack the stature of godliness. The Atonement brings us to that level, grace for grace.

All we can potentially do is dependent upon our agency. Our agency is dependent on our intelligence. The difference between our intelligence and godly perfection is made up by the Atonement. It is about increasing what we can possibly be as much as it is about we can possibly do up to the level of what God is and does. This is the only way we can be one with Him.

This doesn't require His knowing what we will "actually" do in the sense you are portraying it. It only requires Him to know who and what we are--and this is all He expects of us to know as well (D&C 93:19). And note that it says "may."

Edited December 6, 2013 by CV75

[pogi]

That is whole point! He overcame even that!

 

Injustice is the point?  What does going to prison for a crime that never will be committed overcome exactly, the potential for sin?  That was already overcome by the individual through obedience.  No need to suffer!  No intelligence or Godliness can be gained by Christ overcoming something that I already overcame.  

 

Even with all our "actual" sins remitted, we still lack the stature of godliness. The Atonement brings us to that level, grace for grace.

 

Let me get this straight, Christ suffers for my potential sins that I already overcame, and that's supposed to make me more Godlike?  There is no grace or growth in needless suffering. 

 

The difference between our intelligence and godly perfection is made up by the Atonement.

 

That is an interesting thought, but that does not demonstrate why Christ had to suffer for uncommitted sins and overcome temptations.  What is missing between our intelligence and Godly perfection is more intelligence.  This comes through learning, obedience to the laws upon which these blessings are predicated, endowment, and revelation, not through unneeded suffering for imagined sins that will never be.  There is no sense or reason in that whatsoever. 

 

This doesn't require His knowing what we will "actually" do in the sense you are portraying it. It only requires Him to know who and what we are--and this is all He expects of us to know as well (D&C 93:19). And note that it says "may."

 

Are you saying he did not experience the pain of my fractured ankle before it happened?

 

Intelligence is light, to gain more of it all we need to do is be obedient to the commandments.  D&C 93:28 - "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. vs 27 - "No man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth the commandments."  I fail to see the connection between Christ suffering for potential, yet not real, sin and receiving further light and knowledge.  

 

Once we have overcome temptation, we then face a new and different challenge to receive more light.  No need for Christ to suffer as if we did not overcome the temptation.  How would that give us the light and knowledge we need to overcome the next, and unrelated, challenge? 

Edited December 6, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

That means you are predestined to committ "x" amounts of sins- no more and no less and that he knows perfectly all the times you will sin- no more and no less.

 

Thats ridiculous!

 

Wrong, it does not mean that you are predestined.  That implies that God caused it.  His foreknowledge is not the cause, we are. 

 

Re-read Maxwell's talk that I posted.  He said that God had a foreknowledge that David and Solomon would commit the exact sins that they would commit and fall from grace.  Maxwell insists that foreknowledge does not imply cause, which could not then be considered predestination, but simply foreknowledge. 

[CV75]

Injustice is the point?  What does going to prison for a crime that never will be committed overcome exactly, the potential for sin?  That was already overcome by the individual through obedience.  No need to suffer!  No intelligence or Godliness can be gained by Christ overcoming something that I already overcame.  Yes, overcoming injustice is the point. He was even killed for crimes He did not commit. You overcome nothing save through the merits of His atonement.

 

 

Let me get this straight, Christ suffers for my potential sins that I already overcame, and that's supposed to make me more Godlike?  There is no grace or growth in needless suffering. No. You haven’t overcome any sin on your own.

 

 

That is an interesting thought, but that does not demonstrate why Christ had to suffer for uncommitted sins and overcome temptations.  What is missing between our intelligence and Godly perfection is more intelligence.  This comes through learning, obedience to the laws upon which these blessings are predicated, endowment, and revelation, not through unneeded suffering for imagined sins that will never be.  There is no sense or reason in that whatsoever. It is more than an interesting thought; it is the content of the three links I provided. When I say He suffers for our potential to sin (and the more righteous someone is, the greater the potential fall, both in significance and magnitude), it means he covers the inevitability that in our fallen condition, no matter the spiritual gifts we came to earth with, we will eventually fall, no matter how long it takes—just at Adam did. His Atonement additionally allows us to gain more intelligence, grace for grace.

 

 

Are you saying he did not experience the pain of my fractured ankle before it happened? No, and He did. And I’m also saying he experienced any pain you could possibly endure in this life and haven’t or won’t. Any pain you are spared is by virtue of His suffering.

 

Intelligence is light, to gain more of it all we need to do is be obedient to the commandments.  D&C 93:28 - "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. vs 27 - "No man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth the commandments."  I fail to see the connection between Christ suffering for potential, yet not real, sin and receiving further light and knowledge.  The connection is that, until our potential to receive light and knowledge is increased, we cannot progress even with our actual and potential sins remitted since the capacity to sin and the capacity to gain light and knowledge are wrapped up in our agency, which is also limited without the enabling and strengthening power of the Atonement.

 

Once we have overcome temptation, we then face a new and different challenge to receive more light.  No need for Christ to suffer as if we did not overcome the temptation.  How would that give us the light and knowledge we need to overcome the next, and unrelated, challenge? We cannot overcome temptation without the benefits of the Atonement.

Edited December 6, 2013 by CV75

[CV75]

Wrong, it does not mean that you are predestined.  That implies that God caused it.  His foreknowledge is not the cause, we are. 

 

Re-read Maxwell's talk that I posted.  He said that God had a foreknowledge that David and Solomon would commit the exact sins that they would commit and fall from grace.  Maxwell insists that foreknowledge does not imply cause, which could not then be considered predestination, but simply foreknowledge. 

I think Maxwell is saying that He knew what they were capable of, and in many instances could see it coming based on lifelong patterns of behavior and lack of their "light-gathering" progress in these areas. The important message he was trying to convey is that God's knowledge -- however one understands it to operate  -- does not cause people's bad choices.

[Rob Osborn]

Wrong, it does not mean that you are predestined.  That implies that God caused it.  His foreknowledge is not the cause, we are. 

 

Re-read Maxwell's talk that I posted.  He said that God had a foreknowledge that David and Solomon would commit the exact sins that they would commit and fall from grace.  Maxwell insists that foreknowledge does not imply cause, which could not then be considered predestination, but simply foreknowledge. 

Each one of us are innocent from sin at birth. As we get older we make choices as to be righteous or not and we become accountable for sins. Each one of us has a clean record with God having no knowledge of any sins we will actually committ before we committ them. God does have knowledge in what areas we are weak and where we may sin but he has no sure knowledge beforehand if we will actually committ them or not only a probability factor of if we are more prone to committ one sin or another or refrain from it. Thus, if I pray strong enough when i am tempted in my weakness God intervenes and helps us to not sin of which without we probably would sin. God is thus pleased when we call upon him in our weakness for his help because he has more power to help us not to sin. Its not all written down- which sins we will or will not committ, in the mind of God beforehand. That choice is up to us of the which he is not sure of until we actually choose and act upon.

[pogi]

The important message he was trying to convey is that God's knowledge -- however one understands it to operate  -- does not cause people's bad choices.

 

Right, which means that my understanding of his foreknowledge is not the same as predestination.

 

 

Injustice is the point?  What does going to prison for a crime that never will be committed overcome exactly, the potential for sin?  That was already overcome by the individual through obedience.  No need to suffer!  No intelligence or Godliness can be gained by Christ overcoming something that I already overcame.  Yes, overcoming injustice is the point. He was even killed for crimes He did not commit. You overcome nothing save through the merits of His atonement.

 

 

Let me get this straight, Christ suffers for my potential sins that I already overcame, and that's supposed to make me more Godlike?  There is no grace or growth in needless suffering. No. You haven’t overcome any sin on your own.

 

 

That is an interesting thought, but that does not demonstrate why Christ had to suffer for uncommitted sins and overcome temptations.  What is missing between our intelligence and Godly perfection is more intelligence.  This comes through learning, obedience to the laws upon which these blessings are predicated, endowment, and revelation, not through unneeded suffering for imagined sins that will never be.  There is no sense or reason in that whatsoever. It is more than an interesting thought; it is the content of the three links I provided. When I say He suffers for our potential to sin (and the more righteous someone is, the greater the potential fall, both in significance and magnitude), it means he covers the inevitability that in our fallen condition, no matter the spiritual gifts we came to earth with, we will eventually fall, no matter how long it takes—just at Adam did. His Atonement additionally allows us to gain more intelligence, grace for grace.

 

 

Are you saying he did not experience the pain of my fractured ankle before it happened? No, and He did. And I’m also saying he experienced any pain you could possibly endure in this life and haven’t or won’t. Any pain you are spared is by virtue of His suffering.

 

Intelligence is light, to gain more of it all we need to do is be obedient to the commandments.  D&C 93:28 - "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. vs 27 - "No man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth the commandments."  I fail to see the connection between Christ suffering for potential, yet not real, sin and receiving further light and knowledge.  The connection is that, until our potential to receive light and knowledge is increased, we cannot progress even with our actual and potential sins remitted since the capacity to sin and the capacity to gain light and knowledge are wrapped up in our agency, which is also limited without the enabling and strengthening power of the Atonement.

 

Once we have overcome temptation, we then face a new and different challenge to receive more light.  No need for Christ to suffer as if we did not overcome the temptation.  How would that give us the light and knowledge we need to overcome the next, and unrelated, challenge? We cannot overcome temptation without the benefits of the Atonement.

 

 

Ok, so you are saying that he actually has experienced every pain and sorrow, plus every potential pain and sorrow.  I will have to think about this.  I like that it is still performed on a personal level in that he actually experienced every pain exactly as I have or ever will.

 

Having said that, as if the atonement was not already incomprehensible in that he "only" suffered for the total sum of our sins, suffering, pain, sorrow, illness, etc. you just multiplied his suffering by an infinite amount.  Indeed, there would be no end to the potential suffering and sin of all eternity.  His atonement is infinite and eternal, there simply could be no end to the potential for sin and suffering.  That posses a problem.

 

Also, how does Christ suffering for potential sin (yet unfulfilled), help me to avoid temptation?  How does that give me agency?  The way I understand it is that agency comes through the redemption from the fall, as it says in 2 Nephi 2:26-27-

 

"And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given."

 

Here is another good link about the atonement and agency:

http://scottwoodward.org/atonement_central_a-z_survey_agency.html

 

I don't see any connection to the atonement of "potential" sin and agency.  I have never heard any reference to an atonement of potential sin.  This is completely new to me.  Do you have any references?

 

As crazy an idea as this seems to me, it certainly beats Rob's idea that he hasn't actually suffered every single pain.