EllenMaksoud Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 To be clear, I have not seen evidence that Mormon women are abused because they are Mormon. In fact, I wonder if the opposite is true? It seems to me that in comparison with previous experience, Mormons are particularly egalitarian. Genesis 3:16, the last phrase is really unpopular, though some fundamentalist Christian faiths follow that rigorously.
thesometimesaint Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 Someone has to have the final say. In LDSdom that is the husband. But if he in anyway doesn't follow the Lord and listen very carefully to his wife's advice, counsel, input, in compassion, patience, long suffering, understanding, and love unfeigned. Amen to the Priesthood of that man.
strappinglad Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 God the Father rules over us all. Take note of His management style.
Kevin Christensen Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 To be clear, I have not seen evidence that Mormon women are abused because they are Mormon. In fact, I wonder if the opposite is true? It seems to me that in comparison with previous experience, Mormons are particularly egalitarian. Genesis 3:16, the last phrase is really unpopular, though some fundamentalist Christian faiths follow that rigorously.See Jolene Edmunds Rockwood, The Redemption of Eve" in Sisters in Spirit, Eds. Beecher and Anderson (University of Illinois Press: Urbana and Chicago, 1992). The verse is descriptive of the Fallen world, not proscriptive of a Celestial state. For LDS all things should be done by common consent, without compulsory means, relying on persuasion and pure knowledge, which leans a person towards an enlarged soul (see Enos for an example of a soul enlarging, rather than contracting), and away from hypocrisy and guile. Impure knowledge, it seems has the opposite effect. FWIW Kevin ChristensenBethel Park, PA 4
Calm Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 Someone has to have the final say. In LDSdom that is the husband. I disagree on that interpretation and I believe that the prophets and other authorities of our faith do as well: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/04/equal-partnership-in-marriage Moreover, contrary to scripture and the teachings of latter-day prophets, some men and women have interpreted presiding to mean that after equal counsel, equal consent is not necessary because the presider (or husband) has the right of final say. But President Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “In the Church there is a distinct line of authority. We serve where called by those who preside over us. In the home it is a partnership with husband and wife equally yoked together, sharing in decisions, always working together.”8In considering the equal partnership, Elder L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles eloquently said: “There is not a president or a vice president in a family. The couple works together eternally for the good of the family. … They are on equal footing. They plan and organize the affairs of the family jointly and unanimously as they move forward.”9 Both husband and wife have a sacred obligation to refrain from thoughts and actions that might undermine that equal partnership.Priesthood stewardship does not superimpose a hierarchical relationship over the God-ordained equality between husband and wife in their roles as parents. President James E. Faust (1920–2007) taught, “Every father is to his family a patriarch and every mother a matriarch as coequals in their distinctive parental roles.”10 3
Calm Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 The Temple makes it clear that a wife need only follow her husband as he follows the Lord. IOW, she must seek out the same revelation he does to confirm whatever her husband says, so she knows the same thing her husband does about what the Lord wants them to do and she agrees to do it just as the husband has done.
thesometimesaint Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I disagree on that interpretation and I believe that the prophets and other authorities of our faith do as well: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/04/equal-partnership-in-marriage What happens when husband and wife can't agree?
Mystery Meat Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 What happens when husband and wife can't agree? Well, I guess that depends. But this much I do know, if the husband says, "Well I am the presider so we are doing it my way." Even if he says it a little bit softer then that, then it is unrighteous dominion of the first order. The man doesn't win every disagreement simply by virtue of being the man and "presider." 4
strappinglad Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 What happens when husband and wife can't agree? My wife and I always make sure we are in total agreement for any major decisions. We don't make very many major decisions. 1
katherine the great Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 See Jolene Edmunds Rockwood, The Redemption of Eve" in Sisters in Spirit, Eds. Beecher and Anderson (University of Illinois Press: Urbana and Chicago, 1992). The verse is descriptive of the Fallen world, not proscriptive of a Celestial state. I agree with this. I've always interpreted this as simply a condition of the carnal state we find ourselves in here on the earth. I also don't see it as any type of a command that women are bound to be "ruled over" by their husbands as much as it is a reflection of the basic fragile state of the human female that results from our reproductive activities. Human males don't have the type of physical constraints we do when it comes to our reproductive functions (childbearing, nursing, etc.) 1
EllenMaksoud Posted November 30, 2013 Author Posted November 30, 2013 What happens when husband and wife can't agree?Is your couch comfortable? 1
pogi Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) What happens when husband and wife can't agree? My wife would say, "you may be the head of the house, but I am the neck and can turn the head whichever way I want." That seems to be the case most of the time. Edited November 30, 2013 by pogi
AndyDnom Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 how does the wife know if the husband is following the lord or not? doesn't the husband decide what god said? so how would the wife know if he was doing the right thing or not?
katherine the great Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 how does the wife know if the husband is following the lord or not? doesn't the husband decide what god said? so how would the wife know if he was doing the right thing or not?Yeah because females are completely incapable of figuring such things out by themselves. (sorry, but that deserves a big eye roll!) 3
Calm Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) how does the wife know if the husband is following the lord or not? The same way the husband would know, because of personal revelation from the Lord saying what the Lord desires for them. doesn't the husband decide what god said? No. Edited November 30, 2013 by calmoriah
AndyDnom Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 so the wife follows the husband if the husband follows god, but the wife gets to decide what it was that was god's will? so the wife tells the husband what god wants him to do, then its upon the husband to do it or not, and depending on if he follows it or not, then the wife will harken to the husband at that point?
Tacenda Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Well, I guess that depends. But this much I do know, if the husband says, "Well I am the presider so we are doing it my way." Even if he says it a little bit softer then that, then it is unrighteous dominion of the first order. The man doesn't win every disagreement simply by virtue of being the man and "presider."Unrighteous dominion permeated Emma in the D&C 132, when it said she must accept polygamous wives or be damned. So much for free agency, I guess it ends here and there..
thesometimesaint Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Is your couch comfortable? Yes it is for sitting. It's too soft for a bed. A very wise man once told that you should never go to bed angry. I've had more than a few sleepless nights.
thesometimesaint Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Unrighteous dominion permeated Emma in the D&C 132, when it said she must accept polygamous wives or be damned. So much for free agency, I guess it ends here and there.. Not really. There are any number of things Emma could have done. No wife is required to follow her husband into Hell. 1
EllenMaksoud Posted November 30, 2013 Author Posted November 30, 2013 Yes it is for sitting. It's too soft for a bed. A very wise man once told that you should never go to bed angry. I've had more than a few sleepless nights. And I also, being the willful creature that I am.
Mystery Meat Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Unrighteous dominion permeated Emma in the D&C 132, when it said she must accept polygamous wives or be damned. So much for free agency, I guess it ends here and there..The The Lord can say what he wants I suppose.
canard78 Posted December 1, 2013 Posted December 1, 2013 Someone has to have the final say. In LDSdom that is the husband. But if he in anyway doesn't follow the Lord and listen very carefully to his wife's advice, counsel, input, in compassion, patience, long suffering, understanding, and love unfeigned. Amen to the Priesthood of that man.I disagree that LDS doctrine teaches that men have the final say. Can you reference that. Sorry if I'm late and it's already been requested. 1
Flyonthewall Posted December 1, 2013 Posted December 1, 2013 My wife is a very strong, independent woman. A time or two, while we were living in California and Washington state, she has called me at work and informed me she was going to go visit her mother & sister in Utah(no we were not fighting, she just got a wild hair). Of course she would ask how I felt about it. When we bought our first house, she called my at work and told me she was going to fax an offer she made on a house, I was to sign it and fax it back to her, and she had not even been inside it yet.(The house turned out to be perfect for us at the time) On more than one occasion people would ask my why I "let her get away with that". I would always respond that it is not a matter of me "letting her get away" with something, she does not need my permission to do things. I trust her 100%... we are equal in our marriage. When we disagree on something we will discuss it until an agreement is reached. We both have compromised on decisions so neither one of us has rank to pull on the other. As far as I am concerned, the church has never taught that the woman should be subservient to the man, but that both are co-equal, and equally yoked so to speak. 2
daz2 Posted December 1, 2013 Posted December 1, 2013 Correlated articles in Church publications have changed the interpretation of how husbands and wives should interrelate--and what it means for the man to "rule" or "preside" in the home. In 1973, the Ensign published this article: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/02/strengthening-the-patriarchal-order-in-the-home?lang=eng In this article, Professor Barlow compares the husband's role to a bishop or other presiding leader in the home, and the wife as a counselor. He notes that there would be chaos in a ward or quorum if there were two bishops or two presidents with ultimate authority, and therefore there can only be one ultimate leader in the home. He sometimes refers to the notion of equality in decisionmaking as "equalitarian" as if that is a bad thing and a sign of the times. Compare that article to Professor Hudson's earlier this year: http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/04/equal-partnership-in-marriage?lang=eng#footnote9-10704_000_013 She quotes Elder Perry: "There is not a president or a vice president in a family. The couple works together eternally for the good of the family. … They are on equal footing. They plan and organize the affairs of the family jointly and unanimously as they move forward.” Interestingly, in the talk as given, Elder Perry said the husband and wife were co-presidents, but he deleted that in the Ensign version--but the concept is the same. This piece compares and contrasts the two articles, 40 years apart: http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/03/21/truth-for-our-times/ I believe Elder Scott and others have stated that a husband and wife should not make any decision until they are both in uncoerced uncompelled agreement--i.e., that the wife does not defer to the husband in the decisionmaking, but they must both believe it is right. If they are not in agreement, then they do not move forward. Sort of like the way the FP and 12 currently operate. One further point, Genesis 3:16 is not part of the Garden of Eden story as related in the temple. 1
Coreyb Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 Moreover, contrary to scripture and the teachings of latter-day prophets, some men and women have interpreted presiding to mean that after equal counsel, equal consent is not necessary because the presider (or husband) has the right of final say. But President Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “In the Church there is a distinct line of authority. We serve where called by those who preside over us. In the home it is a partnership with husband and wife equally yoked together, sharing in decisions, always working together.”8In considering the equal partnership, Elder L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles eloquently said: “There is not a president or a vice president in a family. The couple works together eternally for the good of the family. … They are on equal footing. They plan and organize the affairs of the family jointly and unanimously as they move forward.”9 Both husband and wife have a sacred obligation to refrain from thoughts and actions that might undermine that equal partnership.Priesthood stewardship does not superimpose a hierarchical relationship over the God-ordained equality between husband and wife in their roles as parents. President James E. Faust (1920–2007) taught, “Every father is to his family a patriarch and every mother a matriarch as coequals in their distinctive parental roles.”10 The women are entitled to salvation if they live according to the word that is given to them; and if their husbands are good men, and they are obedient to them, they are entitled to certain blessings, and they will have the privilege of receiving certain blessings that they cannot receive unless they are sealed to men who will be exalted. -Brigham Young JD 16:166 it seems like our understanding of words like "preside" and "rule" have changed a bit as our culture has. So yes, the Brethren have taught that men are in charge, just not recently.
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