Mormon Interpretation Of "he Shall Rule Over Thee".

[Calm]

So we're all one big sneaky and manipulative family... ain't it grand?!?

Not really.. I find it very sad when I see it. I don't believe it is how God wants us to treat others.

[teddyaware]

Not really.. I find it very sad when I see it. I don't believe it is how God wants us to treat others.

Of course, I was being facetious.

[Calm]

Got it. Given how one or two here appear to be celebrating women who are manipulative, I read it the wrong way. Sorry.

[teddyaware]

Got it. Given how one or two here appear to be celebrating women who are manipulative, I read it the wrong way. Sorry.

I don't think they're celebrating the alleged sneakiness and manipulativeness of women, they're just

making observations. Also remember that one might make very similar observations about women without

using words with such negative connotations. For example, if I were to substitute the word 'clever' for 'manipulative' and the word 'discreet' for 'sneaky,' I would likely beseen as complimenting women rather than putting them down.

Edited December 5, 2013 by teddyaware

[EllenMaksoud]

So you are comfortable with the "women are sneaky/manipulative" meme? You think in general men are unable to be convinced by a reasonable argument for something or that women are generally unreasonable in their demands so they have to play games instead to get what they want?

Culturally we've moved past for a good part the it's okay for a man to beat a disobedient wife, why wouldn't we also be able to culturally move past women need to be manipulative (more so then men) to survive as well?

Personally I don't think it takes much cultural training for a child or a woman or a black or a Jew to figure out when one is in an oppressive environment where one is at a disadvantage, one should use one's brain to survive....just as it shouldn't be hard to figure out if one has grown up in a non oppressive environment that using reason to convince people to make good choices is more effective in the long run then playing games and misrepresenting the situation to make it appear for them desirable...the blowback when people feel they've been manipulated into doing something they don't want to do can be huge and detrimental to any long term relationship.

Um, I just can't help it. Having largely gotten over my fear of men,  I just do things around them that I wouldn't with women. The women I know will either agree or disagree, but mostly will listen. Men just seem to be thinking of a way to reply, and sometimes put you down. After exhaustive personal observation, it is easy to see that men can at times be guided by a smile,  a few well chosen works, and a roll of the eyes.

[Calm]

I don't think they're celebrating the alleged sneakiness and manipulativeness of women, they're just

making observations. Also remember that one might make very similar observations about women without

using words with such negative connotations. For example, if I were to substitute the word 'clever' for 'manipulative' and the word 'discreet' for 'sneaky,' I would likely beseen as complimenting women rather than putting them down.

discreet does not equate to sneaky nor clever for manipulative in what they mean, but I get your intention...and I agree that using words with negative connotations is a huge part of the problem, but the main issue is describing women as typically deceptive in getting what they want, more so than men.

[Calm]

After exhaustive personal observation, it is easy to see that men can at times be guided by a smile,  a few well chosen works, and a roll of the eyes.

Are you being deceptive or "sneaky" when you do this?  Are you convincing men without their awareness that what you want is really what they want when it really isn't?

Edited December 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

discreet does not equate to sneaky nor clever for manipulative in what they mean, but I get your intention...and I agree that using words with negative connotations is a huge part of the problem, but the main issue is describing women as typically deceptive in getting what they want, more so than men.

Over the millennia, men have tended to prefer fists, swords, bombs and guns to settle seemingly

intractable disputes, while women tend to take the verbal route. There's nothing defamatory in this.

By the way, clever and discreet can be used as more positive meaning substitutes for manipulative and

sneaky. For example, one of the dictionary definitions of discreet is "keeping one's silence in order

to gain an advantage."

[Calm]

Over the millennia, men have tended to prefer fists, swords, bombs and guns to settle seemingly

intractable disputes, while women tend to take the verbal route. There's nothing defamatory in this.

 

And if that was what was said, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  That is not what I am disagreeing with.

 

This is what started this derail, from Ahab:

 

Along with the idea that woman as the neck can turn the head of a  man in any way that she wants, there is also the idea that when a woman wants a man to do something the best way for her to do that is to get the man think her idea is his own idea.  Or better yet, an idea that he got from God.

 

Women can be sneaky.  Very very sneaky.  I fear you greatly underestimate their sneakiness.

 

... and yes they usually do what they do with the best of intentions.

 

IOW, since this is the best way, it is better for women to be deceptive, pretend they are letting men think for themselves and instead of treating men like thinking adults and persuading them with reason and love, treat them like spoiled children that can only be persuaded to do something if they think it is good for them.

 

If men were to use the same tactics, according to the scriptures, they would lose the right to the Priesthood, but somehow this is not only good when women do it, but they are much more likely to be "sneaky" about what they are trying to accomplish than men.

Edited December 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

By the way, clever and discreet can be used as more positive meaning substitutes for manipulative and

sneaky. For example, one of the dictionary definitions of discreet is "keeping one's silence in order

to gain an advantage."

And that has nothing to do inherent to do with being sneaky, only if one were being deceptive by being silent to gain an advantage...intentionally misleading by one's silence, would that be considered equivalent.  As soon as you remove the connotation of sneakiness, you are moving away from what was originally claimed about women.

Edited December 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

And if that was what was said, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  That is not what I am disagreeing with.

 

This is what started this derail, from Ahab:

 

IOW, since this is the best way, it is better for women to be deceptive, pretend they are letting men think for themselves and instead of treating men like thinking adults and persuading them with reason and love, treat them like spoiled children that can only be persuaded to do something if they think it is good for them.

 

If men were to use the same tactics, according to the scriptures, they would lose the right to the Priesthood, but somehow this is not only good when women do it, but they are much more likely to be "sneaky" about what they are trying to accomplish than men.

A wife getting her husband to believe a particularly good idea is his, when in reality the idea may

have actually originated with her, is not a particularly evil or dark deed -- indeed, it may be seen as

an act of kindness. Perhaps Ahab was being a bit cheeky when he used the words sneaky and manipulative.

My impression is that Ahab was just having a little fun in a vein of expression that grows out of the

concept that "women are from Venus and men are from Mars."

[Calm]

If you are comfortable with your wife thinking you are not mature enough to accept an idea because it is good just because it is her idea and not yours, then that undoubtedly will work for your relationship.

 

My husband has told me he is quite proud of my intelligence, says he thinks I am smarter than him and I've never seen any indication that he will reject an idea of what we need to do simply because it is my idea and not his.  I love him for that.

[juliann]

What happens when husband and wife can't agree?

Then nothing happens.   Since you are using the church to support the idea that a husband gets the final word, that amen to the priesthood of that man comes into play.  I cannot imagine being in a marriage where one partner just went off and did what they wanted over the other's objections.  And any man that would do that is most certainly not following the Lord so that anyone should follow him.

[teddyaware]

If you are comfortable with your wife thinking you are not mature enough to accept an idea because it is good just because it is her idea and not yours, then that undoubtedly will work for your relationship.

 

My husband has told me he is quite proud of my intelligence, says he thinks I am smarter than him and I've never seen any indication that he will reject an idea of what we need to do simply because it is my idea and not his.  I love him for that.

If you're more intelligent than he, do you also possess more wisdom than he? If so, that would be a

tough marital dynamic for most men to operate within. In this situation, unless the husband is very

mature and self-confident, it could become a potential "queen bee/drone" scenario. Check out the early 20th century comic strip character, Caspar Milquetoast, to see a case

study in consequences of intellectual emasculation. Thankfully, it doesn't sound like "brother Calmoriah" is in the mold of poor Caspar.

Edited December 5, 2013 by teddyaware

[katherine the great]

If you're more intelligent than he, do you also possess more wisdom than he? If so, that would be a

tough marital dynamic for most men to operate within. In this situation, unless the husband is very

mature and self-confident, it could become a potential "queen bee/drone" scenario. Check out the early 20th century comic strip character, Caspar Milquetoast, to see a case

study in consequences of intellectual emasculation. Thankfully, it doesn't sound like "brother Calmoriah" is in the mold of poor Caspar.

I think you are underestimating the force of culture.  In the early 20th century, most men may have felt "emasculated" by a stronger female partner because they were expected to have the "upper hand."  We are the product of our biology (hormones, temperament, etc.) and our culture.  A man who is raised in a culture of strong, intelligent women is less likely to feel threatened by them.  There are many variables.

Edited December 5, 2013 by katherine the great

[EllenMaksoud]

Are you being deceptive or "sneaky" when you do this?  Are you convincing men without their awareness that what you want is really what they want when it really isn't?

If I was being mean and evil it would mean I am deceptive, but since it is for their own good, I am being sneaky. And factually, most Mormon men seem really anxious to please.

Edited December 5, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[EllenMaksoud]

I think you are underestimating the force of culture.  In the early 20th century, most men may have felt "emasculated" by a stronger female partner because they were expected to have the "upper hand."  We are the product of our biology (hormones, temperament, etc.) and our culture.  A man who is raised in a culture of strong, intelligent women is less likely to feel threatened by them.  There are many variables.

The present situation is quite novel for me coming from a situation where if I disagreed, I was liable to be waking up later. I think that most women in Middle Eastern cultures face that unless they get a very good man. Living in Western LDS culture for almost three years is a whole different reality for me, though I know that even in Western culture up to 25% of women feel bullied.

[Calm]

If you're more intelligent than he, do you also possess more wisdom than he? If so, that would be a

tough marital dynamic for most men to operate within. In this situation, unless the husband is very

mature and self-confident, it could become a potential "queen bee/drone" scenario. Check out the early 20th century comic strip character, Caspar Milquetoast, to see a case

study in consequences of intellectual emasculation. Thankfully, it doesn't sound like "brother Calmoriah" is in the mold of poor Caspar.

He may think I am smarter than him, but I believe he is very intelligent and wise himself and that he has a good opinion of his own practical sense and just because he thinks I am smarter than him doesn't mean he believes his own ideas have any less value.  He is much better at communicating with people in the work environment than I am so we each have our strengths and I believe we recognize them and accept them and use them to improve our lives as a couple and the other's life as our loved one as well as our own.  In some situations I am more wise than him and in others he is more wise than me.  The idea that we won't accept each other's ideas as valuable simply because they are not our own ideas is just ridiculous in our situation.

[teddyaware]

He may think I am smarter than him, but I believe he is very intelligent and wise himself and that he has a good opinion of his own practical sense and just because he thinks I am smarter than him doesn't mean he believes his own ideas have any less value.  He is much better at communicating with people in the work environment than I am so we each have our strengths and I believe we recognize them and accept them and use them to improve our lives as a couple and the other's life as our loved one as well as our own.  In some situations I am more wise than him and in others he is more wise than me.  The idea that we won't accept each other's ideas as valuable simply because they are not our own ideas is just ridiculous in our situation.

It's ridiculous in most any situation. The main reason why people, including husbands and wives, end

up playing manipulative mind games with each other is because of pride, immaturity, ignorance and self-imposed stupidity. In a healthy human relationships, there should never be any need to be sneaky or

manipulative. The problem is that there are enough emotionally and spiritually immature/unhealthy

people in the world that one may have to employ cunning strategies in order to keep unpleasant and

beastly natural men and women at bay.

[Tacenda]

If I was being mean and evil it would mean I am deceptive, but since it is for their own good, I am being sneaky. And factually, most Mormon men seem really anxious to please.

Got to agree with you there. Or my ward is a special case, pertaining to Mormon men are anxious to please.

[Calm]

It's ridiculous in most any situation. The main reason why people, including husbands and wives, end

up playing manipulative mind games with each other is because of pride, immaturity, ignorance and self-imposed stupidity. In a healthy human relationships, there should never be any need to be sneaky or

manipulative. The problem is that there are enough emotionally and spiritually immature/unhealthy

people in the world that one may have to employ cunning strategies in order to keep unpleasant and

beastly natural men and women at bay.

We agree....wonderful.

 

As I said before, my problem with this is not that I am denying this exists, but rather I am challenging the ideas that this is a desirable and acceptable state of relationships to be in or that women are naturally more prone to use deception than men.  I just don't buy that last as I've seen it as much in men as in women.  Women may be more verbal than men, but not all deception takes place verbally.  In this day and age, men cannot resort to violence in most cases in order to get their way...and that never worked that well for men in general except for a few at the top that held 'ultimate power' for their communities, it would always have been safer for the men who controlled their tendency to violence and instead used their brain to get ahead by making others take the risks for them.  We have whole stereotypes of cultures with manipulative men playing obscure and complicated political games.  If you look for the archetype manipulators in our culture, you get men...Iago, Machiavelli, Richard the III (the popular version, not the actual historical one), generals who trick the enemy into exposing their weaknesses through deceptive practices.  Elizabeth the I was seen as unusual because she could hold her own in playing political games with the men...even best them.

 

For some reason people seem to see men using deception on grand scale while women would historically use it on a smaller scale, ie. in personal relationships, simply because of the limit of their influence...and then interpret that as women being more deceptive than men.  I think it is a twisted and unrealistic interpretation.  Chances are those men who are known for using large scale deception used it in their personal lives as well.  From what I've seen, it can be a hard habit to break once one develops the practice and the world view that such is a fine way to treat one's fellow human beings....as long as one gets what one wants.

Edited December 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

Got to agree with you there. Or my ward is a special case, pertaining to Mormon men are anxious to please.

Don't mean to sickenly gush about Mormon men. I'm met a few of the other kind.

[Calm]

Got to agree with you there. Or my ward is a special case, pertaining to Mormon men are anxious to please.

If Mormon men are anxious to please, then it would be really wrong for Mormon women to use deception/sneakiness/dishonesty to get what they want when all they had to be was honest.

[Tacenda]

If Mormon men are anxious to please, then it would be really wrong for Mormon women to use deception/sneakiness/dishonesty to get what they want when all they had to be was honest.

True!

[teddyaware]

We agree....wonderful.

 

As I said before, my problem with this is not that I am denying this exists, but rather I am challenging the ideas that this is a desirable and acceptable state of relationships to be in or that women are naturally more prone to use deception than men.  I just don't buy that last as I've seen it as much in men as in women.  Women may be more verbal than men, but not all deception takes place verbally.  In this day and age, men cannot resort to violence in most cases in order to get their way...and that never worked that well for men in general except for a few at the top that held 'ultimate power' for their communities, it would always have been safer for the men who controlled their tendency to violence and instead used their brain to get ahead by making others take the risks for them.  We have whole stereotypes of cultures with manipulative men playing obscure and complicated political games.  If you look for the archetype manipulators in our culture, you get men...Iago, Machiavelli, Richard the III (the popular version, not the actual historical one), generals who trick the enemy into exposing their weaknesses through deceptive practices.  Elizabeth the I was seen as unusual because she could hold her own in playing political games with the men...even best them.

 

For some reason people seem to see men using deception on grand scale while women would historically use it on a smaller scale, ie. in personal relationships, simply because of the limit of their influence...and then interpret that as women being more deceptive than men.  I think it is a twisted and unrealistic interpretation.  Chances are those men who are known for using large scale deception used it in their personal lives as well.  From what I've seen, it can be a hard habit to break once one develops the practice and the world view that such is a fine way to treat one's fellow human beings....as long as one gets what one wants.

You're right Cal. I think the disagreements expressed on this thread were based on misunderstanding.

It's doubtful any knowledgeable Latter-day Saint would say sneakiness and manipulativeness in

male/female relationships are a good thing. Rather, some were merely acknowledging that in an imperfect

world, where many still have a long way to go before genuine maturity and integrity are reached,

sneakiness and manipulativeness will remain unpleasant realities.

Edited December 5, 2013 by teddyaware