EllenMaksoud Posted December 5, 2013 Author Posted December 5, 2013 Following this discussion as it has developed, it is clear that Mormon culture might always remain a mystery to me. It is special, though there are the bad ones sometimes, largely it is special. I wish I could experience it fully.
Ahab Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 And if that was what was said, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That is not what I am disagreeing with. This is what started this derail, from Ahab: IOW, since this is the best way, it is better for women to be deceptive, pretend they are letting men think for themselves and instead of treating men like thinking adults and persuading them with reason and love, treat them like spoiled children that can only be persuaded to do something if they think it is good for them. If men were to use the same tactics, according to the scriptures, they would lose the right to the Priesthood, but somehow this is not only good when women do it, but they are much more likely to be "sneaky" about what they are trying to accomplish than men.No, i wasn't saying that it is necessarily the best way for a woman to get what she wants, but that there is an idea out there (among women) that when a woman wants a man to do something the best way for her to do that is to get the man think her idea is his own idea. Or better yet, an idea that he got from God. And yes some men have a similar idea about how to get something from a woman. Otherwise what other option is there? That's the woman should think of the idea as the man's idea and that she should just go along with the man's idea because the man came up with that idea? People usually want to try to get others to agree with them when they want something from the other, and the idea that each should try to get the other to accept the idea as if it is their own idea can work very well when people have the best of intentions. The "sneaky" language was just a wordplay on what the butler said to Mr. Deeds, played by Adam Sandler, and the butler was a very nice guy. I guess you just didn't get it.
Calm Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) but that there is an idea out there (among women) that when a woman wants a man to do something the best way for her to do that is to get the man think her idea is his own idea. Funny...I hear this tons more from men who think that is how women approach them. That's the woman should think of the idea as the man's idea and that she should just go along with the man's idea because the man came up with that idea? This makes no sense...I thought you said it was the woman's idea in the first place... Otherwise what other option is there? The best option--the mature and reasonable one---is for the woman to present her idea as her idea and if it is a good idea, for the man to accept it as her idea. Just because one is nice doesn't stop one from being prejudiced. Edited December 5, 2013 by calmoriah
Ahab Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 Funny...I hear this tons more from men who think that is how women approach them.So what if it is. It's not necessarily a bad thing for a woman to want a man to accept her idea as his own idea. That's unity. This makes no sense...I thought you said it was the woman's idea in the first place...I said what I said after saying a man can sometimes do the same thing, subtly influencing the woman to accept his idea as her idea, too. And there isn't anything necessarily wrong with "subtly influencing" either. When 2 people have a discussion about something and each person presents and discusses their own ideas with the other with the desire to get something done, both should agree on whatever idea they have and both should consider the idea as their mutual idea (not just his, and not just hers). The best option--the mature and reasonable one---is for the woman to present her idea as her idea and if it is a good idea, for the man to accept it as her idea.At which point it will be his idea, too. Right? Or do you want the man to go along with the woman just because she got an idea? Just because one is nice doesn't stop one from being prejudiced.And being prejudiced isn't necessarily a bad thing, either. I hate all things evil, which means I am prejudiced against all things evil.
Calm Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 It's not necessarily a bad thing for a woman to want a man to accept her idea as his own idea. If by this you mean that he then agrees and commits to the idea, fine; if you mean he comes to think it was originally his own idea...I think if that is the only way he'll accept an idea, I think that is a sign of immaturity and should not be catered to. It's no favour to encourage anyone to stay childish and selfish.
Ahab Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 If by this you mean that he then agrees and commits to the idea, fine; if you mean he comes to think it was originally his own idea...I think if that is the only way he'll accept an idea, I think that is a sign of immaturity and should not be catered to. It's no favour to encourage anyone to stay childish and selfish.Some people haven't learned that it is God who gives us all of our good ideas, and still he gives them some good ideas anyway. I think what's more important is what we do with a good idea whenever we get one. We can think about who to thank later.
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