"slips Of The Tongue" Or Is It Something Else?

[Stargazer]

In the Book of Mormon there are a few passages that seem to be slips of the tongue made while Joseph was dictating from what he was shown in the process of delivering the text (and I don't call it translating).  I saw this in a YouTube video from the show "Heart of the Matter" with Shawn McCraney.  I understand that his show was recently axed for failing to maintain his juggernaut against Mormonism -- or something.  But that's beside the point.

 

In this one video, which is found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU1x5rbunj8

 

Shawn goes on about supposed "slips of the tongue" that Joseph must have made as he "pretended to translate", and the examples he brings up are:

• Mosiah 7:8
• Alma 10:5 (the video wrongly cites the verse as Alma 5:10
• Alma 24:19
• Alma 43:38
• 2 Nephi 5:15-16
• 2 Nephi 4:14
• Mosiah 12:1
• Mosiah 2:3-4
• Jacob 1:1-11
• Ether 3:15 compared with D&C 107:54
• Ether 2:16-17

I'm not going to quote all of these, but here's a sample:

 

Mosiah 7:8

 

8 And it came to pass when they had been in prison two days they were again brought before the king, and their bands were loosed; and they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions which he should ask them.

 

Alma 24:19

 

19 And thus we see that, when these Lamanites were brought to believe and to know the truth, they were firm, and would suffer even unto death rather than commit sin; and thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace.

McCraney makes the point in both of these instances that Joseph was working from an outline. Parenthetically, I note that there is less attestation for this outline than there is for the plates themselves, but I digress. Anyway, if this list is exhaustive, then McCraney has 11 instances in which Joseph supposedly misspeaks in his dictation, and then backtracks, contradicting himself immediately. That's pretty good actually, only 11 such mistakes in quite a big work!

Now, I have a notion of what is happening here, something that McCraney seems to have missed. An elephant in the room, as it were. But I am interested in what others here have to say about these proposed "Errors in the Book of Mormon".

[Tacenda]

Well, probably not what you were after, but Shawn has nearly 60 shows centered on the BoM. Needless to say, he might have few more items up his sleeve.

[Stargazer]

Well, probably not what you were after, but Shawn has nearly 60 shows centered on the BoM. Needless to say, he might have few more items up his sleeve.

I'm sure he does! Do you have any thoughts on this particular sleeve?

Edited November 19, 2013 by Stargazer

[Tacenda]

Well, the only way, IMO, for it to work is if he neither translated the actual gold plates, nor read word for word on parchment, but got the thoughts in his head then copied them down from inspiration. According to the things Shawn brought up.

[canard78]

I actually do think this could be evidence of corrections in the dictation. But it could just as well be evidence of the fact that engraving on gold plates doesn't come with the option of an eraser. So Joseph could just as well be dictating Mormon's "errors" or clarifications.

Robert recently posted some interesting examples of where whole verses seem to have been added in the wrong order. I don't remember which thread. Hopefully he'll pop by and remember.

Shawn's an entertaining host but many of his arguments fall apart pretty quickly. His interview with Dehlin on MoStories showed him to be a much more well-rounded individual.

[Robert F. Smith]

........................................................  

Shawn's an entertaining host but many of his arguments fall apart pretty quickly. His interview with Dehlin on MoStories showed him to be a much more well-rounded individual.

Which one is well-rounded, McCraney or Dehlin?

[Robert F. Smith]

I actually do think this could be evidence of corrections in the dictation. But it could just as well be evidence of the fact that engraving on gold plates doesn't come with the option of an eraser. So Joseph could just as well be dictating Mormon's "errors" or clarifications.

Robert recently posted some interesting examples of where whole verses seem to have been added in the wrong order. I don't remember which thread. Hopefully he'll pop by and remember.

..........................................................   

You're right, canard, but I deal specifically with McCraney's example.

 

See my comments at post #83 at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62074-do-hebraisms-in-the-late-war-undermine-the-ones-in-the-book-of-mormon/page-5?hl=erasers#entry1209312956 .

Edited November 19, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[canard78]

Which one is well-rounded, McCraney or Dehlin?

McCraney. He comes across as a numb-skull shock jock on his 'heart of the matter' show (well... came across... his show was cancelled after he started adding some EV churches to his list for attack).

In the interview he admitted that the style on the show was intentionally provocative to get a reaction. He is sincere in his beliefs about wanting to save the Mormons from their lack of faith in Christ and he is quite articulate in the interview.

[thesometimesaint]

Operating from a false premise doesn't get you where you want go, except by pure accident. 

[teddyaware]

In the Book of Mormon there are a few passages that seem to be slips of the tongue made while Joseph was dictating from what he was shown in the process of delivering the text (and I don't call it translating).  I saw this in a YouTube video from the show "Heart of the Matter" with Shawn McCraney.  I understand that his show was recently axed for failing to maintain his juggernaut against Mormonism -- or something.  But that's beside the point.

 

In this one video, which is found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU1x5rbunj8

 

Shawn goes on about supposed "slips of the tongue" that Joseph must have made as he "pretended to translate", and the examples he brings up are:

• Mosiah 7:8
• Alma 10:5 (the video wrongly cites the verse as Alma 5:10
• Alma 24:19
• Alma 43:38
• 2 Nephi 5:15-16
• 2 Nephi 4:14
• Mosiah 12:1
• Mosiah 2:3-4
• Jacob 1:1-11
• Ether 3:15 compared with D&C 107:54
• Ether 2:16-17

I'm not going to quote all of these, but here's a sample:

 

Mosiah 7:8

 

 

Alma 24:19

 

McCraney makes the point in both of these instances that Joseph was working from an outline. Parenthetically, I note that there is less attestation for this outline than there is for the plates themselves, but I digress. Anyway, if this list is exhaustive, then McCraney has 11 instances in which Joseph supposedly misspeaks in his dictation, and then backtracks, contradicting himself immediately. That's pretty good actually, only 11 such mistakes in quite a big work!

Now, I have a notion of what is happening here, something that McCraney seems to have missed. An elephant in the room, as it were. But I am interested in what others here have to say about these proposed "Errors in the Book of Mormon".

 

 

Just silly. McCraney's really grasping at straws with this one. At any rate, the writers of the Book of Mormon themselves tell us that there are some mistakes of men found on the plates (if we can even call the items on McCraney's list mistakes). Remember, it's not easy to erase something engraved on metal plates. This could account for these very rare moments of slightly awkward language in the Book of Mormon. Another possibility is that these examples are not mistakes at all but precisely the thoughts the writers of the Book of Mormon wanted to express. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[Vance]

How interesting that what an anti-Mormon uses as evidence against the BOM is actually evidence FOR its authenticity.

Schadenfreudenistically delicious.

[omni]

I actually do think this could be evidence of corrections in the dictation. But it could just as well be evidence of the fact that engraving on gold plates doesn't come with the option of an eraser. So Joseph could just as well be dictating Mormon's "errors" or clarifications.

Robert recently posted some interesting examples of where whole verses seem to have been added in the wrong order. I don't remember which thread. Hopefully he'll pop by and remember.

Shawn's an entertaining host but many of his arguments fall apart pretty quickly. His interview with Dehlin on MoStories showed him to be a much more well-rounded individual.

Wouldn't this indicate a tight translation? If the English translation appeared on the seer stones as the witnesses attest to and Joseph simple transcribed what he saw, you would expect to see some errors for the reason you mentioned. However, if it was a loose translation (as people seem to be moving towards after the LW presentation) and thoughts or impressions were coming to Joseph's mind; why would he retain these errors if the exact wording wasn't important?

[Doctrine 612]

I

Robert recently posted some interesting examples of where whole verses seem to have been added in the wrong order. I don't remember which thread. Hopefully he'll pop by and remember.

.

I am not Robert but the scripture that comes to mind is alma 13 with the story of melchezidek. Correct me if iam wrong but I remember a Sunday school teacher addressing this last year.

[canard78]

I am not Robert but the scripture that comes to mind is alma 13 with the story of melchezidek. Correct me if iam wrong but I remember a Sunday school teacher addressing this last year.

Yes, thanks

[canard78]

Wouldn't this indicate a tight translation? If the English translation appeared on the seer stones as the witnesses attest to and Joseph simple transcribed what he saw, you would expect to see some errors for the reason you mentioned. However, if it was a loose translation (as people seem to be moving towards after the LW presentation) and thoughts or impressions were coming to Joseph's mind; why would he retain these errors if the exact wording wasn't important?

Fair point. I don't believe in tight, so if loose they may be his own dictation errors.

[Coreyb]

I actually do think this could be evidence of corrections in the dictation. But it could just as well be evidence of the fact that engraving on gold plates doesn't come with the option of an eraser. So Joseph could just as well be dictating Mormon's "errors" or clarifications.

Robert recently posted some interesting examples of where whole verses seem to have been added in the wrong order. I don't remember which thread. Hopefully he'll pop by and remember.

Shawn's an entertaining host but many of his arguments fall apart pretty quickly. His interview with Dehlin on MoStories showed him to be a much more well-rounded individual.

when I read the book of Mormon for the first time, I came across these "mistakes" and I took them as evidence of Mormon etching words onto metal, like you said. In each example it seems the author is just not quite satisfied with what they wrote and wants to change it slightly. If Joseph Smith was the unsatisfied author, it seems likely he would have told his scribe to change it, or maybe edited it out later, but if they are Mormons mistakes, Joseph would have probably remained unaware of them and they would have remained in the text, as they clearly did.

[Stargazer]

This last year when my wife and I translated the story of her mother's travails at the hands of the Soviets at the end of Ww2, there was no way possible to make a "tight" translation.  The story had been given orally onto tape in German, then later transcribed in that language using a typewriter.  There was virutally no paragraph division, and my mother-in-law like to throw in East Prussian slang, and sometimes slangy Russian as well (she learned it in the forced labor camps).  The story as I finally compiled it conveyed the sense of the experience as well as much of the facts, but there was no way to tightly translate it all. 

 

Fair point. I don't believe in tight, so if loose they may be his own dictation errors.

 

But as best I remember it, the words given to him remained visible to him until they had been correctly transcribed.  At least when he was doing it from the U&T and from the Seerstone.  When he graduated to not even needing those, that may have still been the case, but possibly not visually.

 

I would call that a tight translation.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Stargazer

[Danzo]

I think that it is interesting that people come up with two possible classifications of translating, assume they are mutually exclusive, then argue whether it was one or the other. Its as if our classifications have the power to control what he did.   Anyone, myself included who has ever done translating, knows that sometimes its tight and other times its loose.

[omni]

I think that it is interesting that people come up with two possible classifications of translating, assume they are mutually exclusive, then argue whether it was one or the other. Its as if our classifications have the power to control what he did.   Anyone, myself included who has ever done translating, knows that sometimes its tight and other times its loose.

 

I know when I refer to a tight translation I mean Joseph being given the exact words of the translation either through direct revelation or by reading them off the seer stone.  When I think of a loose translation I imagine Joseph looking at the actual reformed Egyptian characters and him choosing the words or as others have proposed, thoughts or impressions coming to his mind and he chooses the wording.

 

IMO, it would be odd for God to randomly switch back and forth throughout the translation.

Edited November 21, 2013 by omni

[T-Shirt]

I believe the translation was both tight and loose, at the same time.

[Danzo]

I know when I refer to a tight translation I mean Joseph being given the exact words of the translation either through direct revelation or by reading them off the seer stone.  When I think of a loose translation I imagine Joseph looking at the actual reformed Egyptian characters and him choosing the words or as others have proposed, thoughts or impressions coming to his mind and he chooses the wording.

 

IMO, it would be odd for God to randomly switch back and forth throughout the translation.

Why would that be odd?  Isn't it possible that in some cases the exact wording would be important, but in others, not so much?

My personal experience with revelation is that most of the times, I'm left to work with my best efforts, but at critical times, I am given more precise instructions.

[omni]

Why would that be odd?  Isn't it possible that in some cases the exact wording would be important, but in others, not so much?

My personal experience with revelation is that most of the times, I'm left to work with my best efforts, but at critical times, I am given more precise instructions.

 

I'm curious as to how you see the mechanics of the translation which would allow for both styles?

[Danzo]

I'm curious as to how you see the mechanics of the translation which would allow for both styles?

Just my experience with revelation. 

The lord likes us to work thing out the best we are able (loose translation) until we get it wrong and then we get corrected (Tight translation).

I think that for some parts of the book of Mormon, the exact wording doesn't matter, so a loose translation would be appropriate, and for some things, the exact wording matters a lot (tight translation).