Ender's Game

[Stone holm]

You need to get out more and take a look at the anti-Mormon bigotry spewed forth during the Prop-8 issue in California.  Remember the commercial of two Mormon missionaries ransacking a gay couple's house and tearing up their marriage certificate?  The fact that you try to soft-pedal SSM vitriol against the church as not, somehow, being anti-Mormon is simply ridiculous.

 

But then again, it's consistent with your stance of always supporting worldly trends when they conflict with the church.

There is a tendency to reap what you sow. Both sides engaged in over the top rhetoric. I am not sure how I would react to someone who said I was mentally disordered because I was a Mormon, or that they had a 12 step program to cure me of the Mormon syndrome. How would you react to that?

[ERayR]

There is a tendency to reap what you sow. Both sides engaged in over the top rhetoric. I am not sure how I would react to someone who said I was mentally disordered because I was a Mormon, or that they had a 12 step program to cure me of the Mormon syndrome. How would you react to that?

 

Smile and say no thank you I am comfortable with my own phobias.

[Stone holm]

Smile and say no thank you I am comfortable with my own phobias.

Well that's good ERayR , but I suspect that a lot of us would call that bigoted. So when we do it to another group should we expectation different response?

[california boy]

Sounds like "opening my heart" is really a one way street, as far as you're concerned. Orson Scott Card will always be a bigot and homophobe, and that's just the way it is. There's no need to read what he has actually said or where he is coming from, or understand why his concerns with SSM might just be valid. He can only be demonized, because anyone who has any concern with the direction gay-driven agendas are taking us must automatically be written off as someone out of touch with reality.

 

Forget exploring what causes people to become gay; once they're gay it is to be treated as an immutable characteristic and untouchable. It is politically incorrect to question anything about it. And gays such as yourself are going to tell us how we really rationalize things, that all of how we perceive gays to be is just hate, and that we just need to open our hearts to "understand".

 

Frankly, this is rather disappointing, even given the diatribes you're prone to. To stereotype rationalizations for hating gays as the norm as you do above, while simultaneously stereotyping Card as a bigot for opposing SSM (and gee, if someone opposes SSM, then we can read anything at all into his motivations, can't we?) is simply ironic for someone who says I need to be more understanding.

 

If you can learn anything from the threads that have been posted here, there are significant numbers of Latter-day Saints who have gay friends, acquaintances and family members who get along just fine with them, and who seek to live in what harmony is available, despite having differing opinions on subjects such as SSM. To portray those who don't as representative of those who oppose SSM simply confirms that bigotry and stereotyping can exist on both sides of the fence. That's a shame, because those people on both sides are going to drive the polarization that is going to split this society  - NOT people like Orson Scott Card.

 

The only trouble with your diatribe is that I never said Orson Scott Card was a bigot because he opposed SSM.  I have never called somone a bigot because they are opposed to SSM.  He is a bigot by what he wrote about gays that have nothing to do with gay marriage.  

 

Like this:

 

"(sodomy laws)to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

 

Maybe I can give you some context of what that statement might be like for you.  Suppose a prominent person in America started advocating that we should keep the Mormon Extermination laws on the book.  You know, just so we can keep the Mormons in line.  When someone says statements like that, there are people who feel it is legitimate to start treating Mormons as not equal.  If there are laws directly on the books that are targeted to Mormons then we don't really need to treat them as we do other citizens.  Would you characterize someone who advocated keeping the Mormon Extermination laws on the books as being anti Mormon?

 

How about this quote

"we recognize the principle that those who have as little control over their own behavior as small children should be treated as compassionately -- yet firmly -- as we treat small children."

"What we do with small children is to establish clear boundaries and offer swift but mild punishment for crossing them. As their capacity to understand and obey increases, the boundaries broaden but the consequences of crossing them become more severe"

 

What if someone of prominence started comparing Mormons 5 year olds and they should be treated like children because of their unchristian beliefs.  After all, Mormons must have simple minds if they can believe in a fairy tale like Joe Smith and a gold bible.  Don't you realize that these very statement made about Mormons in the early days stirred up mobs that eventually burned the homes and drove the saints out in the cold of winter?

 

How does that sit with you.  Do you think that person is way out of line?  Would you hope that some of his ideas would catch on and others would think of all Mormons as having the minds of a 5 year old?  

[jwhitlock]

There is a tendency to reap what you sow. Both sides engaged in over the top rhetoric. I am not sure how I would react to someone who said I was mentally disordered because I was a Mormon, or that they had a 12 step program to cure me of the Mormon syndrome. How would you react to that?

 

As usual, an invalid comparison of belief to behavioral tendencies. Possibly also rooted in your misunderstanding of such programs, which are designed for people who want to overcome something, and are looking for programs to help them do just that.

 

But hey, if you think that cult deprogramming is to be compared with 12 step programs, or that religious belief can be compared to behavioral tendencies, then it's your right to head down that dead end.

[jwhitlock]

The only trouble with your diatribe is that I never said Orson Scott Card was a bigot because he opposed SSM.  I have never called somone a bigot because they are opposed to SSM.  He is a bigot by what he wrote about gays that have nothing to do with gay marriage.  

 

Like this:

Maybe I can give you some context of what that statement might be like for you.  Suppose a prominent person in America started advocating that we should keep the Mormon Extermination laws on the book.  You know, just so we can keep the Mormons in line.  When someone says statements like that, there are people who feel it is legitimate to start treating Mormons as not equal.  If there are laws directly on the books that are targeted to Mormons then we don't really need to treat them as we do other citizens.  Would you characterize someone who advocated keeping the Mormon Extermination laws on the books as being anti Mormon?

 

How about this quote

What if someone of prominence started comparing Mormons 5 year olds and they should be treated like children because of their unchristian beliefs.  After all, Mormons must have simple minds if they can believe in a fairy tale like Joe Smith and a gold bible.  Don't you realize that these very statement made about Mormons in the early days stirred up mobs that eventually burned the homes and drove the saints out in the cold of winter?

 

How does that sit with you.  Do you think that person is way out of line?  Would you hope that some of his ideas would catch on and others would think of all Mormons as having the minds of a 5 year old?  

 

Before you walk off this particular cliff with your blinders on, you might want to take a look at Jeremy's comments in the thread about that very statement. To paraphrase one of my favorite lines from "The Princess Bride", you keep using that word; I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

In short, accusations of bigotry against Card seem to be extrapolated from his statements taken out of context by his opponents. The statements themselves don't mean what you think they mean, and Jeremy was able to give us some insight into that.

[rodheadlee]

So let me get this theory straight.  If you are a guy and you are raped or molested, then it turns you gay.  If you are a woman that was raped by a male, then it turns you into a lesbian.

 

 

 

 

Nah, I was molested by a gay guy for my first sexual experience and I turned out straight. But it has tainted my opinion of gay guys through the years.

[Tacenda]

Nah, I was molested by a gay guy for my first sexual experience and I turned out straight. But it has tainted my opinion of gay guys through the years.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.  I think this happens more than we know.  Men don't talk about it so much.  And it's not just gay men who harm.

[Stone holm]

As usual, an invalid comparison of belief to behavioral tendencies. Possibly also rooted in your misunderstanding of such programs, which are designed for people who want to overcome something, and are looking for programs to help them do just that.

 

But hey, if you think that cult deprogramming is to be compared with 12 step programs, or that religious belief can be compared to behavioral tendencies, then it's your right to head down that dead end.

No, I just know that when I pick up the sword to attack a group because I do not approve of their behavior, I can expect them to return the favor and should not cry victim when they do.

[california boy]

Before you walk off this particular cliff with your blinders on, you might want to take a look at Jeremy's comments in the thread about that very statement. To paraphrase one of my favorite lines from "The Princess Bride", you keep using that word; I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

In short, accusations of bigotry against Card seem to be extrapolated from his statements taken out of context by his opponents. The statements themselves don't mean what you think they mean, and Jeremy was able to give us some insight into that.

I did read what Jeremy WISHED Card had said.  And yes, I have read a lot of backpeddling by Card since there has been the burning light of publicity concerning what he has written about gays.  As if, "some of my best friends are gay" is proof that he is not a bigot.  After all, we have never heard a bigot say "some of my best friends are black"  Or just because I want to keep the Mormon Extermination order in place to keep the Mormons in line doesn't mean I am antiMormon.  

 

Have you ever heard an antiMormon say "some of my best friends are Mormon as a defense to bigoted statements?  "Just because Mormons have the mental capacity of a 5 year old doesn't mean I hate them."   Is this all sounding ok with you???

[Deborah]

Who here has seen the movie, is it kid friendly?  Sorry to derail the thread, I thought this would contain a discussion of the movie, how well it paralleled the book, if people thought they did a good job with it etc. etc.

 

12 years and up. It might be too intense for younger kids. I read the book years ago so I don't really remember a lot but I did vaguely remember the outcome of the game. It was a very good story about misunderstanding and not communicating.

[jwhitlock]

No, I just know that when I pick up the sword to attack a group because I do not approve of their behavior, I can expect them to return the favor and should not cry victim when they do.

 

There you go again. According to you, opposing SSM is akin to attacking a group. Fact is, it's not - no matter how often you try to portray it that way.

[Stone holm]

12 years and up. It might be too intense for younger kids. I read the book years ago so I don't really remember a lot but I did vaguely remember the outcome of the game. It was a very good story about misunderstanding and not communicating.

Am going to the late show, early reviews from my son indicates its a lousy movie, but the judgment of people who like a book is often negative towards the movie, it is difficult to move from a book to a movie without annoying fans of the book, exceptions being the Harry Potter movies, and the final attempt at The Lord of the Rings.

[Stone holm]

There you go again. According to you, opposing SSM is akin to attacking a group. Fact is, it's not - no matter how often you try to portray it that way.

Whatever, if you think denying a group the right to marry is not attacking a group, that is fine. Let's just hope nobody tries to forbid Mormons from marrying.

[jwhitlock]

I did read what Jeremy WISHED Card had said.  And yes, I have read a lot of backpeddling by Card since there has been the burning light of publicity concerning what he has written about gays.  As if, "some of my best friends are gay" is proof that he is not a bigot.  After all, we have never heard a bigot say "some of my best friends are black"  Or just because I want to keep the Mormon Extermination order in place to keep the Mormons in line doesn't mean I am antiMormon.  

 

Have you ever heard an antiMormon say "some of my best friends are Mormon as a defense to bigoted statements?  "Just because Mormons have the mental capacity of a 5 year old doesn't mean I hate them."   Is this all sounding ok with you???

 

The problem with anti-Mormon's saying it is that they're typically lying. Card's not lying about that.

 

Interestingly enough, with your comment you've officially hit a new low - comparing wanting to keep the Extermination Order in place to opposing SSM.

 

So all you can offer is a dismissal of what Jeremy - who has worked with Card - "wished" he Card had said. Of course, you know better.

 

Right.

[jwhitlock]

Whatever, if you think denying a group the right to marry is not attacking a group, that is fine. Let's just hope nobody tries to forbid Mormons from marrying.

 

Let's try to be accurate, for once, Stone holm. Gays have the same right to marry as anyone else. Try to keep that in mind.

[Stone holm]

Let's try to be accurate, for once, Stone holm. Gays have the same right to marry as anyone else. Try to keep that in mind.

Gays have the right to marry in most of the States around here, in some States they only have the right to marry in accordance with the religious beliefs and traditions of the dominant culture. And you needn't bother with the juvenile explanation that they have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex just like the heterosexuals. If everyone agreed upon the definition of marriage Prop 8 would not have been considered necessary. I personally don't approve of gays marrying each other, but that is strictly because of my religious beliefs which I will not sully by trying to impose on others via legislation. We have enough of that type of government going on in the Mideast right now.

[jkwilliams]

My son loves Ender's Game and some of Card's other books, but as he said, "I'd feel better about it if he weren't such a d-bag." Card comes across as a rather angry reactionary, IMO, but I've never been one to boycott art because the artist believes and acts differently than I would. Of course, I might feel differently if i knew the money the artist makes is going to support evil.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

... aaand, this is why trying to talk about this issue has become so difficult. Guys, I really don't like the sarcasm and condescension that california boy's arguments been subjected to in this thread. I agree with a lot of what he has to say myself. At the same time, california boy, I think I've demonstrated that Card's writing is indeed being misread (particularly the interpretation of the infamous 'should' passage) and have provided evidence that is not based on any "wishful thinking" on my part or "back-pedaling" on Card's part.

I should also clarify for everyone here that I'm basing my arguments on information that is publicly available and verifiable, and I have no special 'insider' status or insight just because I worked for OSC on his online magazine a few years ago - I traded a few emails with him, nothing more, and we didn't discuss this issue personally, so please don't use me as some trump card to try and win an argument based on my supposed authority, which I do not actually have. 

This whole thing is immensely frustrating, because I support same-sex marriage, and yet at the same time I am also dismayed at some of the overgeneralizations people on my side of the debate have made about Card. It proves him correct when he says we're caught in a football game of competing teams who don't examine ideas. Simplifying everything into an easy black and white choice doesn't help anyone. I'm not on anyone's side here, because it seems like people are pretty much just talking past each other at this point. We can be good people and disagree about morally complicated issues without being deluded or evil. 

 

Meanwhile, though I have numerous fanboy quibbles, Ender's Game was a good movie.     

Edited November 2, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[california boy]

The problem with anti-Mormon's saying it is that they're typically lying. Card's not lying about that.

 

Interestingly enough, with your comment you've officially hit a new low - comparing wanting to keep the Extermination Order in place to opposing SSM.

 

So all you can offer is a dismissal of what Jeremy - who has worked with Card - "wished" he Card had said. Of course, you know better.

 

Right.

Ok, I am getting used to the fact that you feel an intense need to attack everything I post.  I did not compare the extermination order with ssm.  In fact my post was not even remotely about SSM.  I was very clear that I do not think Scott is a bigot for his stance against SSM.  Did you miss that part?  I quoted some examples of his bigoted writing.  By talking about the extermination order, I was trying desperately to have you understand what it feels like to be unjustly attacked by a bigot and what the ramifications are of thrherticat kind of propaganda. Evidently that concept is beyond your pay scale.  Whatever.

 

Do not get personal.

[Duncan]

now I feel bad I never even heard of Ender's game before the movie came out , neither had I heard of the Hunger Games!!

[jkwilliams]

Ok, I am getting used to the fact that you feel an intense need to attack everything I post.  I did not compare the extermination order with ssm.  In fact my post was not even remotely about SSM.  I was very clear that I do not think Scott is a bigot for his stance against SSM.  Did you miss that part?  I quoted some examples of his bigoted writing.  By talking about the extermination order, I was trying desperately to have you understand what it feels like to be unjustly attacked by a bigot and what the ramifications are of thrherticat kind of propaganda. Evidently that concept is beyond your pay scale.  Whatever.

 

What surprises me is that your analogy wasn't subtle, but some people missed it anyway. You would think that members of the LDS church would be more sensitive to the use of law to discriminate than others. Maybe not.

[Anijen]

he said that anti sodomy laws should remain on the books

Just to be clear anti-sodomy laws have been on the books not to just catch homosexuals but its main purpose was to lump all predators using any type of sex crime hetro included as a means to charge them with something. It has never been singled out for only gay people.

 

Edited to say I have not read the whole thread and it is possible this might have came up already.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Anijen

[VideoGameJunkie]

Is there any book they haven't made into a movie yet?

[Stone holm]

Just got back from seeing the movie with two of my sons and their wives, my wife and my gay brother. Great movie! Definitely not a kid movie. My brother's only comment was that gays shouldn't be protesting the movie, the parents should be because the government was training kids to be killers. The movie obviously condensed the book, but it's true to the book and its sequels. Regardless of Card's political beliefs, that and his Prentice Alvin series were great books.