Ender's Game

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, it looks like the anti-Mormon bigotry of SSM supporters is ramping up to a fine head of foam with the movie release of Ender's Game, based on the novel by Orson Scott Card. As some may be aware, Card has been targeted by SSM supporters with a significant amount of vitriol simply because he has been public about his opposition to SSM.

 

Here's a link from Meridian Magazine about some of the stuff that's going on. This, to me, is another clear indication of how the church and it's members are really going to be treated should SSM become the law of the land.  It's all there for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear to figure out where this is headed.

 

There are good and valid reasons, other than the purely religious ones, for opposing SSM. Those have been discussed in detail on this forum; SSM supporters consistently simply dismiss those reasons out of hand, telling us that our fears about the negative consequences of SSM are unfounded - even as those negative consequences continue to unfold before our very eyes.

 

I don't find anything particularly hateful about what Card has said. Instead, there's a willingness on his part to address the hard realities of the consequences of the kind of social experimentation that SSM entails. However, because of his opposition just to SSM, he is labeled a bigot and homophobe. It's pretty sad for our society that the McCarthyism of the past that we were able to stamp out has reincarnated itself in the guise of entrenched political correctness, where it becomes fashionable and desirable to persecute people for their religious and political viewpoints.

 

Interesting times ahead.

So, ignoring the political experts, I saw Ender's Game, and I liked it and liked it even more when he befriended a Muslim boy, as is evidenced when the boy said, "Salaam Alaykom" to Ender. So, we just really need to keep in touch with the idea that Mr Card is not a political candidate, a political analyst, a Pastor, or even a judge.

[Mystery Meat]

Here goes nothing.

 

If you want my totally unfiltered opinion (and I know you all do), I believe that sexuality is almost always a choice to one degree or another. Sometimes that choice is forced upon us, sometimes the choice is actually pretty subconscious, and others it is very deliberate. I am not the first person to argue this. Here is a link to a actively gay blog, where the lesbian author argues the same thing and a good portion of the comments agree with her (I wonder if they are all just self-hating?).

 

http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/

(I haven't read this post for a while so I am not certain of the language content)

 

Does it really matter if people are born gay anyway? Unfortunately it does. The current law of the land dictates that it does. A long time ago a small handful of judges on the Supreme Court created the judicial framework for analyzing laws that allegedly violate the equal protection clause in the Constitution. In this man made legal analysis a person must show that the trait for which their deprivations under the law are being based on are immutable, or something they can't change. This worked very well for issues of race and gender. People are born white, black, asian, native american, etc. The same mostly applies with gender.

 

In my opinion (and strictly my opinion), gay leaders and activists knew that if they wanted the same rights afforded to heterosexual couples, they had to make a case that they were born that way. That they had no choice but to be gay. I believe that there was a very real effort to shape public discussion and opinion towards the belief that people are born gay. I think we have seen the results of this effort today by labeling anyone who doesn't agree with this assertion (that people are born gay or straight) as bigots or hateful. Nobody wants to have the label and so more and more people simply agree with the majority view.

 

I don't think all people are born gay. I don't know how many are. Frankly, I don't know if any are. I think sexuality is a complicated thing. I think we are a result of our experiences even if we don't consciously realize how those experiences have shaped who we are, including our sexual orientation. But I do strongly believe that a powerful consensus has formed to try and assure rights to those who are gay for whatever reason. Personally, I think certain rights should be guaranteed to any couple regardless of sexual orientation even if it is a choice. In other words, I think the immutable distinction used by the Supreme Court is a stupid requirement.

 

Anyway, I am sure there are some who think my opinions on the matter make me a bigot. I know that I am now in the vast minority with my viewpoint. I am okay with that. I admit I don't have the answers. I am just doing my best. 

[Tacenda]

Here goes nothing.

If you want my totally unfiltered opinion (and I know you all do), I believe that sexuality is almost always a choice to one degree or another. Sometimes that choice is forced upon us, sometimes the choice is actually pretty subconscious, and others it is very deliberate. I am not the first person to argue this. Here is a link to a actively gay blog, where the lesbian author argues the same thing and a good portion of the comments agree with her (I wonder if they are all just self-hating?).

http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/

(I haven't read this post for a while so I am not certain of the language content)

Does it really matter if people are born gay anyway? Unfortunately it does. The current law of the land dictates that it does. A long time ago a small handful of judges on the Supreme Court created the judicial framework for analyzing laws that allegedly violate the equal protection clause in the Constitution. In this man made legal analysis a person must show that the trait for which their deprivations under the law are being based on are immutable, or something they can't change. This worked very well for issues of race and gender. People are born white, black, asian, native american, etc. The same mostly applies with gender.

In my opinion (and strictly my opinion), gay leaders and activists knew that if they wanted the same rights afforded to heterosexual couples, they had to make a case that they were born that way. That they had no choice but to be gay. I believe that there was a very real effort to shape public discussion and opinion towards the belief that people are born gay. I think we have seen the results of this effort today by labeling anyone who doesn't agree with this assertion (that people are born gay or straight) as bigots or hateful. Nobody wants to have the label and so more and more people simply agree with the majority view.

I don't think all people are born gay. I don't know how many are. Frankly, I don't know if any are. I think sexuality is a complicated thing. I think we are a result of our experiences even if we don't consciously realize how those experiences have shaped who we are, including our sexual orientation. But I do strongly believe that a powerful consensus has formed to try and assure rights to those who are gay for whatever reason. Personally, I think certain rights should be guaranteed to any couple regardless of sexual orientation even if it is a choice. In other words, I think the immutable distinction used by the Supreme Court is a stupid requirement.

Anyway, I am sure there are some who think my opinions on the matter make me a bigot. I know that I am now in the vast minority with my viewpoint. I am okay with that. I admit I don't have the answers. I am just doing my best.

How many gay people do you know personally and do you have any within your extended or immediate family? IMO, that's all it takes to know that it wasn't a choice. Why then would one attempt to, or follow through with, suicide? Because of the feelings they have that it's the "in" thing, or they will get satisfaction from it?

[Scott Lloyd]

I think he is talking about some of the more recent Card comments where he has mellowed somewhat, left the radical conservative groups, and tended to concede the culture war was over and life as we know it hadn't actually ceased to exist.

Can you provide a cite (or, even better, a quote)?

[Stone holm]

Can you provide a cite (or, even better, a quote)?

No was just speculating on what he was referring to in his comment.

[Mystery Meat]

How many gay people do you know personally and do you have any within your extended or immediate family? IMO, that's all it takes to know that it wasn't a choice. Why then would one attempt to, or follow through with, suicide? Because of the feelings they have that it's the "in" thing, or they will get satisfaction from it?

Lots actually. So try again.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Lots actually. So try again.

Genuinely curious if they describe their "gayness" as a choice.

[Rob Osborn]

How many gay people do you know personally and do you have any within your extended or immediate family? IMO, that's all it takes to know that it wasn't a choice. Why then would one attempt to, or follow through with, suicide? Because of the feelings they have that it's the "in" thing, or they will get satisfaction from it?

I know several gay people including an extended family member. In every single one of those cases their upbringing and circumstances that they had lived through helped shape their sexual identity as to how they turned out to this point. I also know of several straight friends and family members who tried gay acts because the opportunity arose and they "chose" it. I am sure there probably are some cases of people born gay but from what I have noticed and have seen firsthand, the gay lifestyle they now live is a choice they made based on upbringing and circumstances in their lives. Most gay people are not born gay, its a choice they made just as it is with straight people who try gay things- they choose it.

[Scott Lloyd]

No was just speculating on what he was referring to in his comment.

But you spoke of "the more recent Card comments where he has mellowed somewhat." Surely you have something specific in mind that you could point to.

[Mystery Meat]

Genuinely curious if they describe their "gayness" as a choice.

 

I would say most (if not all) say they were born gay. Which I have no problem with. I think it is entirely possible that some of them were, maybe even all of them. I also think it is possible that their sexual orientation was developed as part of a subconscious reaction to certain pivotal experiences and cues in their life. For others still, I think their assertion that they had no choice in the matter has been shaped by the popular arguments of the day (which may have stemmed from a logical starting point as I tried, perhaps poorly, to describe above)  and, perhaps, in some cases a strong desire to correlate their sexual orientation with divine providence (God made me gay so homosexual sex/marriage is okay). I think sexual orientation may be a little bit more nuanced than a lot of people think including the individual who is claiming they were born this way. I am at least open to the possibility that they were. But I have found, quite frankly, that very few people are open to consider other possibilities.

 

I am not interested in depriving folks who identify themselves as gay from enjoying any right under the law that us heterosexuals are privileged to. But I would expect where most of the backlash from my postulation would come from people who grew up in conservative/tradition religious environments who have sense spent a great deal of time and energy trying to establish the fact that God made them this way. I understand what I am saying to them and how that undermines a lot of what they believe fundamentally about themselves and God. Nevertheless, I still hypothesize that orientation is not as simple as being born one way or the other, at least in most cases. I think it ranges anyway from I was born gay in some cases, to something happened at some point in my life to cause an attraction to one gender, the other, or both, to I am consciously and willfully choosing to be gay.

 

Again, I could be wrong. I have done no research on the topic. Nor do I plan to. I have read accounts of people (like the blog post I linked to with lots and lots of gay folks agreeing with my basic premise) and had interactions with gay people I have known. If I am wrong or if I am right does not change my position on any particular matter such as gay rights. It is just my opinion.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I would say most (if not all) say they were born gay. Which I have no problem with. I think it is entirely possible that some of them were, maybe even all of them. I also think it is possible that their sexual orientation was developed as part of a subconscious reaction to certain pivotal experiences and cues in their life. For others still, I think their assertion that they had no choice in the matter has been shaped by the popular arguments of the day (which may have stemmed from a logical starting point as I tried, perhaps poorly, to describe above) and, perhaps, in some cases a strong desire to correlate their sexual orientation with divine providence (God made me gay so homosexual sex/marriage is okay). I think sexual orientation may be a little bit more nuanced than a lot of people think including the individual who is claiming they were born this way. I am at least open to the possibility that they were. But I have found, quite frankly, that very few people are open to consider other possibilities.

I am not interested in depriving folks who identify themselves as gay from enjoying any right under the law that us heterosexuals are privileged to. But I would expect where most of the backlash from my postulation would come from people who grew up in conservative/tradition religious environments who have sense spent a great deal of time and energy trying to establish the fact that God made them this way. I understand what I am saying to them and how that undermines a lot of what they believe fundamentally about themselves and God. Nevertheless, I still hypothesize that orientation is not as simple as being born one way or the other, at least in most cases. I think it ranges anyway from I was born gay in some cases, to something happened at some point in my life to cause an attraction to one gender, the other, or both, to I am consciously and willfully choosing to be gay.

Again, I could be wrong. I have done no research on the topic. Nor do I plan to. I have read accounts of people (like the blog post I linked to with lots and lots of gay folks agreeing with my basic premise) and had interactions with gay people I have known. If I am wrong or if I am right does not change my position on any particular matter such as gay rights. It is just my opinion.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

[Tsuzuki]

When Card being a Mormon is mentioned in the same phrase as being a bigot, then it indeed becomes anti-Mormon bigotry.

Looks to me more like a public relations disaster than anything anti-Mormon. It's the same way I think about Glenn Beck.

[Storm Rider]

Looks to me more like a public relations disaster than anything anti-Mormon. It's the same way I think about Glenn Beck.

 

This sounds more in the vein of "you can think anything you want as long as it is just like I think". The moment you fall outside of that boundary you are a bigot, a puritan, fundamentalist, and less than acceptable in an enlightened society....everyone that thinks alike, acts alike, etc.

[Stone holm]

This sounds more in the vein of "you can think anything you want as long as it is just like I think". The moment you fall outside of that boundary you are a bigot, a puritan, fundamentalist, and less than acceptable in an enlightened society....everyone that thinks alike, acts alike, etc.

 

Umh, but public relations doesn't really kick in until somebody opens their mouth, then its all about damage control.

[california boy]

I know several gay people including an extended family member. In every single one of those cases their upbringing and circumstances that they had lived through helped shape their sexual identity as to how they turned out to this point. I also know of several straight friends and family members who tried gay acts because the opportunity arose and they "chose" it. I am sure there probably are some cases of people born gay but from what I have noticed and have seen firsthand, the gay lifestyle they now live is a choice they made based on upbringing and circumstances in their lives. Most gay people are not born gay, its a choice they made just as it is with straight people who try gay things- they choose it.

 

I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  You are trying to project your own values and what you want things to be on others.  Participating in a gay act does not make you gay any more than participating in a heterosexual act does not make you straight.  I was married for many years mostly because my church leaders told me that if I would just get married, then the same sex attraction would disappear or at least diminish.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  In all the time I was married, I never thought of myself as straight.  I knew I was still gay and only thought of myself as pretending to be straight.  Do you want to know why someone finally comes out to his family and friends no matter how painful that experience is?  It is because the lie and pretending is worse than being gay.  Every time someone tells you that they admire or love you, deep within yourself, you think, would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  Would they still admire me if they knew I was gay?  And guess what.  When I did finally come out, almost every person in my ward walked away from my life.  I guess they really didn't love or admire me once they found out I was gay.

 

I don't really know if I was born gay or if something caused me to be gay.  Frankly what difference does it make.  Is all I can tell you as God is my witness, is that I knew I was attracted to the same gender since I was 12 years old, and spent the next 30 years trying to pretend to be straight.  

 

Most gay people are not born gay, its a choice they made just as it is with straight people who try gay things- they choose it.

 

 

You really have no right to pretend that you know all the answers on whether someone was born gay or whether they decided to choose it.  It is not your life, you are just an observer projecting your own experiences on other people without any idea what that person is really going through.  I am gay.  I have fought that fact for almost my whole life.  I didn't choose to be gay.  My life is not easier because I am gay.  I know a lot of gay people.  Your statement is laughable to them and to me.  I have yet to meet a single gay person who has ever told me he was straight by orientation but just decided to choose to be gay.  Can you see how ridiculous your pronouncement sounds?

[Stone holm]

I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  You are trying to project your own values and what you want things to be on others.  Participating in a gay act does not make you gay any more than participating in a heterosexual act does not make you straight.  I was married for many years mostly because my church leaders told me that if I would just get married, then the same sex attraction would disappear or at least diminish.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  In all the time I was married, I never thought of myself as straight.  I knew I was still gay and only thought of myself as pretending to be straight.  Do you want to know why someone finally comes out to his family and friends no matter how painful that experience is?  It is because the lie and pretending is worse than being gay.  Every time someone tells you that they admire or love you, deep within yourself, you think, would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  Would they still admire me if they knew I was gay?  And guess what.  When I did finally come out, almost every person in my ward walked away from my life.  I guess they really didn't love or admire me once they found out I was gay.

 

I don't really know if I was born gay or if something caused me to be gay.  Frankly what difference does it make.  Is all I can tell you as God is my witness, is that I knew I was attracted to the same gender since I was 12 years old, and spent the next 30 years trying to pretend to be straight.  

 

 

You really have no right to pretend that you know all the answers on whether someone was born gay or whether they decided to choose it.  It is not your life, you are just an observer projecting your own experiences on other people without any idea what that person is really going through.  I am gay.  I have fought that fact for almost my whole life.  I didn't choose to be gay.  My life is not easier because I am gay.  I know a lot of gay people.  Your statement is laughable to them and to me.  I have yet to meet a single gay person who has ever told me he was straight by orientation but just decided to choose to be gay.  Can you see how ridiculous your pronouncement sounds?

Seriously, did you really think they wouldn't? That seems as naive as my gay brother thinking my Dad would be overjoyed when he brought a gay lover to our small Indiana hometown. Just because people may stick up for you having certain legal rights and avoid calling you nasty names doesn't mean they are going to not react at all. I mean we have all this platitudinous stuff about hate the sin, but love the sinner ... that doesn't mean that anyone really thinks its gonna play out that way.

[california boy]

Seriously, did you really think they wouldn't? That seems as naive as my gay brother thinking my Dad would be overjoyed when he brought a gay lover to our small Indiana hometown. Just because people may stick up for you having certain legal rights and avoid calling you nasty names doesn't mean they are going to not react at all. I mean we have all this platitudinous stuff about hate the sin, but love the sinner ... that doesn't mean that anyone really thinks its gonna play out that way.

 

No I wasn't surprised one bit that I no longer have contact with ward members.  Like I said, it is part of the reason why pretending to be straight was so difficult.  I knew pretty much what would happen when I finally dealt with being gay.  And I don't regret for one minute making that choice.  The people that are now in my life know I am gay and love me anyway.  It is a much more authentic love because it is based on truth, not deception. 

 

I don't blame anyone or hold any hard feelings.  I get it.  Being gay does not fit anywhere in the ideal that the Mormon church wants its members to fit into.   It is why we get statements like Rob's who wants to pretend that people choose to be gay.  It is the only way they can somehow fit gay people into Mormon doctrine.  

[Stone holm]

No I wasn't surprised one bit that I no longer have contact with ward members.  Like I said, it is part of the reason why pretending to be straight was so difficult.  I knew pretty much what would happen when I finally dealt with being gay.  And I don't regret for one minute making that choice.  The people that are now in my life know I am gay and love me anyway.  It is a much more authentic love because it is based on truth, not deception. 

 

I don't blame anyone or hold any hard feelings.  I get it.  Being gay does not fit anywhere in the ideal that the Mormon church wants its members to fit into.   It is why we get statements like Rob's who wants to pretend that people choose to be gay.  It is the only way they can somehow fit gay people into Mormon doctrine.

Well I can't pretend to understand what a gay person in the Church goes through, to me it is a mystery why anyone who wished to stay in good graces in the Church would come out of the closet . There just doesn't seem to be an upside for them. Ultimately, the position is that someone who has SSA is suffering from a condition that will get fixed in the hereafter if they just remain celibate for life. Kind of like a person with a physical disability. Personally, I don't think I would be able to deal with what probably would be a feeling that I was being condescended to all the time. But then I don't understand Log Cabin Republicans either.

[Mystery Meat]

No I wasn't surprised one bit that I no longer have contact with ward members.  Like I said, it is part of the reason why pretending to be straight was so difficult.  I knew pretty much what would happen when I finally dealt with being gay.  And I don't regret for one minute making that choice.  The people that are now in my life know I am gay and love me anyway.  It is a much more authentic love because it is based on truth, not deception. 

 

I don't blame anyone or hold any hard feelings.  I get it.  Being gay does not fit anywhere in the ideal that the Mormon church wants its members to fit into.   It is why we get statements like Rob's who wants to pretend that people choose to be gay.  It is the only way they can somehow fit gay people into Mormon doctrine.  

 

Heterosexual Mormons aren't the only ones making that claim cb, and being disrespectful to people like Rob (and myself) for their opinions on the matter doesn't help things. Again read http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/ for a lesbian woman who argues that everybody chooses their sexual orientation. And there are plenty of gay people who agree with her. 

 

I don't blame you for reacting the way you did to Rob's post. I am sure you have had to go through hell with your experiences. That is something I don't understand and never will so I won't pretend that I do. But telling people they don't know what they are talking about or being disrespectful is not very helpful. 

[Rob Osborn]

I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  You are trying to project your own values and what you want things to be on others.  Participating in a gay act does not make you gay any more than participating in a heterosexual act does not make you straight.  I was married for many years mostly because my church leaders told me that if I would just get married, then the same sex attraction would disappear or at least diminish.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  In all the time I was married, I never thought of myself as straight.  I knew I was still gay and only thought of myself as pretending to be straight.  Do you want to know why someone finally comes out to his family and friends no matter how painful that experience is?  It is because the lie and pretending is worse than being gay.  Every time someone tells you that they admire or love you, deep within yourself, you think, would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  Would they still admire me if they knew I was gay?  And guess what.  When I did finally come out, almost every person in my ward walked away from my life.  I guess they really didn't love or admire me once they found out I was gay.

 

I don't really know if I was born gay or if something caused me to be gay.  Frankly what difference does it make.  Is all I can tell you as God is my witness, is that I knew I was attracted to the same gender since I was 12 years old, and spent the next 30 years trying to pretend to be straight.  

 

 

You really have no right to pretend that you know all the answers on whether someone was born gay or whether they decided to choose it.  It is not your life, you are just an observer projecting your own experiences on other people without any idea what that person is really going through.  I am gay.  I have fought that fact for almost my whole life.  I didn't choose to be gay.  My life is not easier because I am gay.  I know a lot of gay people.  Your statement is laughable to them and to me.  I have yet to meet a single gay person who has ever told me he was straight by orientation but just decided to choose to be gay.  Can you see how ridiculous your pronouncement sounds?

I honestly believe there are cases where gender confusion does indeed happen at birth for one reason or another outside of their control whether it be genetics, mutation, or whatever. However, I am of the very strong belief and opinion that satan is hard at work to corrupt and destroy morality in the world. one of these avenues he uses is causing or tempting people into homosexuality. I honestly and firmly believe that homosexuality can indeed be triggered in any individual just as pornography addictions, cheating on spouses, and all other sexual sins can be triggered in any individual in the right circumstances. Satan himself and his servents know all these ways to corrupt morality and he works to do just that. He also then tells them that they are born that way, its their natural self, nothing they can do and they shouldnt thus be punished for it. These are all Satans tactics.

I have witnessed firsthand circumstances that have led to people performing homosexual acts and I can testify that this is the work of Satan acting upon the natural man. I refuse to accept homosexuality as a norm in society because they were "born that way". People who cheat on their spouses are not "born that way" nor are pedophiles who sexually abuse children "born that way". Dont get me wrong here, I do not intend to make war with homosexuals. But I do make war against the practice of it as it is unlawful in Gods eyes.

[Stone holm]

No I wasn't surprised one bit that I no longer have contact with ward members.  Like I said, it is part of the reason why pretending to be straight was so difficult.  I knew pretty much what would happen when I finally dealt with being gay.  And I don't regret for one minute making that choice.  The people that are now in my life know I am gay and love me anyway.  It is a much more authentic love because it is based on truth, not deception. 

 

I don't blame anyone or hold any hard feelings.  I get it.  Being gay does not fit anywhere in the ideal that the Mormon church wants its members to fit into.   It is why we get statements like Rob's who wants to pretend that people choose to be gay.  It is the only way they can somehow fit gay people into Mormon doctrine.

I honestly believe there are cases where gender confusion does indeed happen at birth for one reason or another outside of their control whether it be genetics, mutation, or whatever. However, I am of the very strong belief and opinion that satan is hard at work to corrupt and destroy morality in the world. one of these avenues he uses is causing or tempting people into homosexuality. I honestly and firmly believe that homosexuality can indeed be triggered in any individual just as pornography addictions, cheating on spouses, and all other sexual sins can be triggered in any individual in the right circumstances. Satan himself and his servents know all these ways to corrupt morality and he works to do just that. He also then tells them that they are born that way, its their natural self, nothing they can do and they shouldnt thus be punished for it. These are all Satans tactics.I have witnessed firsthand circumstances that have led to people performing homosexual acts and I can testify that this is the work of Satan acting upon the natural man. I refuse to accept homosexuality as a norm in society because they were "born that way". People who cheat on their spouses are not "born that way" nor are pedophiles who sexually abuse children "born that way". Dont get me wrong here, I do not intend to make war with homosexuals. But I do make war against the practice of it as it is unlawful in Gods eyes.

You see CB. Although he sounds harsh, and I really question whether the LGBT community is actually causing much real harm to society, homosexuality and the Church, whether it be the result of genetics, parenting, or some life experience just does not play out within the Church or the Gospel. My advice to anyone who has SSA and wants to fully enjoy being a Mormon and part of the Church community is keep it hidden and secret, stay in that closet and keep the door firmly locked, and don't act on the attraction. There is no upside to coming out of the closet and Rob Osborn is putting it to you straight forget all the platitudes and all the warm and fuzzy talk put out for PR purposes, it isn't going to get better within the Church community because ultimately this isn't just a temptation to sin, but a temptation to commit a sin that goes against the very structure of how we view the universe working which is male and female gods and goddesses making worlds and producing spiritual offspring. That is at the heart and core of our beliefs, it is what Christ came to Earth to make possible.

[Tsuzuki]

I like how homosexuality is such a huge issue with God that it isn't mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Perl of Great Price. Does anyone know if the Journal of Discourses covers it? What were Joseph Smith's comments when translating those parts of the Bible?

Edited November 15, 2013 by Tsuzuki

[california boy]

Well I can't pretend to understand what a gay person in the Church goes through, to me it is a mystery why anyone who wished to stay in good graces in the Church would come out of the closet . There just doesn't seem to be an upside for them. Ultimately, the position is that someone who has SSA is suffering from a condition that will get fixed in the hereafter if they just remain celibate for life. Kind of like a person with a physical disability. Personally, I don't think I would be able to deal with what probably would be a feeling that I was being condescended to all the time. But then I don't understand Log Cabin Republicans either.

I gave you a very good reason why gay members don't stay in the closet and pretend to be straight for the rest of their lives.  I understand why you don't get it.  You have never had to deal with this issue.  There is something in the soul of a man trying to follow God that abhors living a life of deceit, pretending to be straight.  Is that really so hard to understand?

 

Your speculation on whether someone is "fixed" in the next life is just that, speculation.  Since there has never been a revelation on that subject, no one, not even the prophet knows.  Until God reveals a 1978 type revelation on the subject, the church and you are just trying to make sense of all of this to try and somehow fit gays into what we do know about the heterosexual plan for God's children.  Do you really think that a gay person can look forward to spending eternity married to a woman when most can't even do that on earth?  And I think you have read enough of my post to realize this is not just about being celibate.

[california boy]

Heterosexual Mormons aren't the only ones making that claim cb, and being disrespectful to people like Rob (and myself) for their opinions on the matter doesn't help things. Again read http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/ for a lesbian woman who argues that everybody chooses their sexual orientation. And there are plenty of gay people who agree with her. 

 

I don't blame you for reacting the way you did to Rob's post. I am sure you have had to go through hell with your experiences. That is something I don't understand and never will so I won't pretend that I do. But telling people they don't know what they are talking about or being disrespectful is not very helpful. 

I read your link.  It is a bunch of (trying to think of a polite name here).  I have no doubt a "lesbian" can claim to have made the choice to be gay.  Please reread my post.  Just because I chose to be married NEVER made me straight.  Just because a straight person chooses to be with a woman NEVER makes them gay.  There is an old saying, Just because you are in the garage does not make you a car.  

 

Maybe you can tell me why somone would devote an entire web site to try and convince you that being gay is a choice?  Do you really think they will convince a gay person that they are mistaken and beng gay is all just a choice?  Or do you think they write this kind of crap to convince straight people it is ok to discriminage against gays because, after all, it is their fault they have made the "choice" to be gay.

[california boy]

I honestly believe there are cases where gender confusion does indeed happen at birth for one reason or another outside of their control whether it be genetics, mutation, or whatever. However, I am of the very strong belief and opinion that satan is hard at work to corrupt and destroy morality in the world. one of these avenues he uses is causing or tempting people into homosexuality. I honestly and firmly believe that homosexuality can indeed be triggered in any individual just as pornography addictions, cheating on spouses, and all other sexual sins can be triggered in any individual in the right circumstances. Satan himself and his servents know all these ways to corrupt morality and he works to do just that. He also then tells them that they are born that way, its their natural self, nothing they can do and they shouldnt thus be punished for it. These are all Satans tactics.

I have witnessed firsthand circumstances that have led to people performing homosexual acts and I can testify that this is the work of Satan acting upon the natural man. I refuse to accept homosexuality as a norm in society because they were "born that way". People who cheat on their spouses are not "born that way" nor are pedophiles who sexually abuse children "born that way". Dont get me wrong here, I do not intend to make war with homosexuals. But I do make war against the practice of it as it is unlawful in Gods eyes.

Maybe I can help you understand what I am saying by telling you what I do agree with in your position.

 

1. I don't know whether someone is born gay or what causes someone to be gay.  I don't think anyone really knows.  But what is indisputable is that for most gay people, it is not a choice.  This btw is the same position as the church.

 

2.  Yeah I agree, satan wants immorality in this world for both straight people and gay people. 

 

3.  You are wrong on satan tempting people into homosexuality.  At least in the sense that it is satan that is "changing" people into being gay.  Please refer to point number 1.

 

4.  No homosexuality is not "triggered" like pornography and cheating on spouse.  Please see statement 1.  To demonize being gay like this is both against the churches position and absolutely not true.  I am not gay because satan tempted me.  If it is satan that leads someone to be gay, then how come a celibate Mormon, faithfully serving a mission, praying and fasting to God to take this away, is faithful in every single calling God asks him to do is still gay.  Does that really sound like the same kind of thing as a man cheating on his wife or looking at pornography?  One is participating in sin, the other is not, yet they are still gay.  Can you be addicted to pornography if you have never looked at it?  Can you cheat on your wife if you have never had sex outside of your marriage covenants?  Yet you can be gay and remain gay your entire life, even if you have been celibate your entire life.  Do you still think it is satan that makes a person gay?  Rob, I am only asking you to open your heart a little and really think about how you view gays.  

 

5.  Yes I agree, a straight person can have a homosexual experience in the same way a gay person can have a straight experience.  And yes, it is probably satan encouraging that immorality to take place.  I was married.  I had many straight experiences.  It never made me straight.  Do you think satan was tempting me to act in an immoral way by having sex with my wife?  It certainly was against my nature.  At the time, I thought marrying was what God wanted me to do.  Certainly that is what my church leaders told me to do.  Now I am not so sure.  When the vast majority of such marriages fail, I have a hard time believing that is from God.  This is the one case that I agree gays are destroying the family.  Oddly enough, people encourage this kind of destruction because they think that is what God wants. How many lives have been hurt and destroyed because of this kind of thinking.  Marriage is not therapy.

 

When you espouse that someone is gay because of satan tempting them, then you are making war against gays.  Why don't you think about what you wrote.  Choose the parts that are true and within keeping of the gospel.  Discard the rest.  They are of no value.  Pursue your crusade against gay sex if you feel it is something God has asked you to do.  Tell gays they are being tempted by satan when the commit gay acts if you feel that need to do so.  But drop the notion that someone is gay because of the influence of satan.  Or that being gay is just like being addicted to pornography.  The church does not teach this, and you shouldn't either.  It is not true.