Elder Oaks' Oct 2013 Gen Con Address

[JLHPROF]

Did a check on state laws for marriage consent and only New Hampshire and New York allow 14 year olds to marry and only if given special permission from the state--which I think would be highly unlikely on the case of a 14 year old and a middle-aged man. According to A of F #12, we believe in obeying the laws of the land. Disobeying them would then be considered a sin.

Since we're getting technical with the CFRs, then in no way does your quote about a relatively small isolated group of people indicate that the American culture at large was accepting of these types of relationships.

Edit: I see in your other post you mentioned five states, maybe I missed some.

 

Wasn't trying to show that it was acceptable to American culture - just that it wasn't a sin.  And since they were living Polygamy I don't think the laws of the land really mattered in who they married.

[Stone holm]

Wow talk about a derailed thread

[T-Shirt]

See above post to the professor.

Omni,

 

Did you completely ignore Calmoriah's posts regarding Helen Kimball?  It seems that you have.  To summarize:

 

The idea to have Helen sealed to Joseph Smith was her father's, not Joseph's.

After the sealing, Helen continued to live with her parents.

Evidence suggests that Helen never lived with Joseph or even spent any time alone with him.

Evidence suggests that Helen saw this as a sealing and not as a typical marriage.

While she was sealed to Joseph and before he was killed, Helen was upset with her father because he wouldn't let her go to dances and hang out with her friends, including the boy she liked.  This, again suggests, strongly, that Helen did not consider herself married in the normal sense of the word.

 

Your continued insistence on calling Joesph Smith to have done something immoral, in regards to Helen Kimball, in the face of all the evidence, I find to be disgusting.

[omni]

Omni,

Did you completely ignore Calmoriah's posts regarding Helen Kimball? It seems that you have. To summarize:

The idea to have Helen sealed to Joseph Smith was her father's, not Joseph's.

After the sealing, Helen continued to live with her parents.

Evidence suggests that Helen never lived with Joseph or even spent any time alone with him.

Evidence suggests that Helen saw this as a sealing and not as a typical marriage.

While she was sealed to Joseph and before he was killed, Helen was upset with her father because he wouldn't let her go to dances and hang out with her friends, including the boy she liked. This, again suggests, strongly, that Helen did not consider herself married in the normal sense of the word.

Your continued insistence on calling Joesph Smith to have done something immoral, in regards to Helen Kimball, in the face of all the evidence, I find to be disgusting.

I saw her post, but I'm on my phone and will properly respond later tonight

[jkwilliams]

And if jkwiliams has never heard of it, it must mean it never happened.

 

So, you have heard of a similar situation in the mid-19th century in America where a fourteen year old girl was told her family's salvation depended on her marrying a 36 year old man? Do tell.

[T-Shirt]

So, you have heard of a similar situation in the mid-19th century in America where a fourteen year old girl was told her family's salvation depended on her marrying a 36 year old man? Do tell.

CFR, please.

[jkwilliams]

I already provide a quote that showed the entire state of Utah in 1852 frequently married as young as 14.

And again, who cares what the accepted social practice was then or now.  I only care for the purposes of this thread if these young marriages of Joseph and others were considered sins by the Lord, and I have never seen a single reference to that effect.

 

Besides, with parental consent, marriage at 14 is still legal in 5 states - http://globaljusticeinitiative.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/united-states-age-of-consent-table11.pdf so not only was it not a sin, it's not even illegal in all 50 states.  I wonder how the bishop of a ward in those states would handle a 14 year married member...

 

Again, it wasn't common for a married middle-aged man to tell a 14 year old girl that her family's salvation depended on her marrying said man, was it? And I'm pretty sure that such a thing was illegal, no matter the girl's age. Am I missing something?

[T-Shirt]

Again, it wasn't common for a married middle-aged man to tell a 14 year old girl that her family's salvation depended on her marrying said man, was it? And I'm pretty sure that such a thing was illegal, no matter the girl's age. Am I missing something?

Please provide references for what you claim.

Edited October 11, 2013 by T-Shirt

[jkwilliams]

CFR, please.

 

Just previous to my father's starting up his last mission but one to the Eastern States, he taught me the principle of Celestial marriage, and having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter: how cruel this seemed to the mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder for he had taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more. I will pass over the temptations which I had during the twenty four hours after my father introduced to me the principle and asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph who came next morning and with my parents I heard him teach and explain the principle of Celestial marriage - after which he said to me , "If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that . . . of your fathers household and all of your kindred." I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God and angels could see my mother's bleeding heart, when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied, "If Helen is willing, I have nothing more to say." She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was so sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me. - Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Newell & Avery, p. 146

[T-Shirt]

 

This does not say that her families salvation was dependent on her sealing to Joseph.  You might want to reconsider your accusations.

[jkwilliams]

This does not say that her families salvation was dependent on her sealing to Joseph.  You might want to reconsider your accusations.

 

She clearly understood she was "purchasing" her family's salvation. "I heard him teach and explain the principle of Celestial marriage - after which he said to me , "If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that . . . of your fathers household and all of your kindred." I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."

 

True, it doesn't say that they would not be saved if she declined, but either way, it's more than a bit coercive. I'm not leveling an accusation but rather pointing out the obvious: this was not just an ordinary marriage of a young girl to an older man.

 

BTW, it's nice to see you after all this time. I hope all is well with you.

[T-Shirt]

She clearly understood she was "purchasing" her family's salvation. "I heard him teach and explain the principle of Celestial marriage - after which he said to me , "If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that . . . of your fathers household and all of your kindred." I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."

 

True, it doesn't say that they would not be saved if she declined, but either way, it's more than a bit coercive. I'm not leveling an accusation but rather pointing out the obvious: this was not just an ordinary marriage of a young girl to an older man.

 

BTW, it's nice to see you after all this time. I hope all is well with you.

So, are you retracting you accusation?

[jkwilliams]

So, are you retracting you accusation?

 

I should have said that the married middle-aged man told the 14 year old girl that by accepting his proposal she would ensure her salvation and her family's salvation, which is more accurate. Do we agree on that?

[CV75]

See above post to the professor.

See post above about apples (1830) and oranges (2013). Plus public law and civic regulation are not always aligned with moral law or Church policy, which was pointed out in Elder Oak’s talk.

 

As you pointed out, there are places in where youth as young as 12 can marry under certain conditions (see Wikipedia). But everywhere on earth the Lord would that all his people of any age be chaste.

 

I would say that breaking the civil law for the sake of having sex in a fraudulent marriage is sinful regardless of the ages of the participants, perpetrators or victims. But so is keeping the civil law for the sake of “passing” a worthiness interview by having a drive-in wedding followed by a quickie divorce in Las Vegas. Both are sinful scripturally and under the Bishop’s purview as a Judge in Israel, not because of the ages involved but because of the immorality involved. Any power differential based on age compounds the sin for the perpetrator.

[Stone holm]

See post above about apples (1830) and oranges (2013). Plus public law and civic regulation are not always aligned with moral law or Church policy, which was pointed out in Elder Oak’s talk.

 

As you pointed out, there are places in where youth as young as 12 can marry under certain conditions (see Wikipedia). But everywhere on earth the Lord would that all his people of any age be chaste.

 

I would say that breaking the civil law for the sake of having sex in a fraudulent marriage is sinful regardless of the ages of the participants, perpetrators or victims. But so is keeping the civil law for the sake of “passing” a worthiness interview by having a drive-in wedding followed by a quickie divorce in Las Vegas. Both are sinful scripturally and under the Bishop’s purview as a Judge in Israel, not because of the ages involved but because of the immorality involved. Any power differential based on age compounds the sin for the perpetrator.

CFR on the idea that power differential based on age compounds the sin?

[T-Shirt]

I should have said that the married middle-aged man told the 14 year old girl that by accepting his proposal she would ensure her salvation and her family's salvation, which is more accurate. Do we agree on that?

Well, it was actually her father's proposal, but, yes, I can agree.  But I am sure you can see that that is very different than telling her her family's salvation depended on it, wouldn't you agree?

Edited October 11, 2013 by T-Shirt

[jkwilliams]

Well, it was actually her father's proposal, but, yes I can agree.  But I am sure you can see that that is very different than telling her her families salvation depended on it, wouldn't you agree?

 

Different, yes, but still pretty coercive, IMO.

[CV75]

CFR on the idea that power differential based on age compounds the sin?

D&C 82:3 teaches the principle, “For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.” Generally speaking, a mature adult wields the advantage of greater power, influence, experieince and wherewithal than a minor of any age, and can weild it to the younger's unfair disadvantage. D&C 121:39 teaches a related principle, “We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” Authority, in this case, is the kind we find often associated with the age differential we're talking about.

 

As you must be aware, any kind of power differential is considered in most harassment, abuse and other situations as it impacts the severity of the crime. Look at the current laws involving the gradients of ages for consensual sexual relations, and the corresponding severity of charges relative to the crimes involving sexual relations between minors of various ages and between minors of various ages and adults.

[Stone holm]

D&C 82:3 teaches the principle, “For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.” Generally speaking, a mature adult wields the advantage of greater power, influence, experieince and wherewithal than a minor of any age, and can weild it to the younger's unfair disadvantage. D&C 121:39 teaches a related principle, “We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” Authority, in this case, is the kind we find often associated with the age differential we're talking about.

 

As you must be aware, any kind of power differential is considered in most harassment, abuse and other situations as it impacts the severity of the crime. Look at the current laws involving the gradients of ages for consensual sexual relations, and the corresponding severity of charges relative to the crimes involving sexual relations between minors of various ages and between minors of various ages and adults.

The first quote has to do with special skills and knowledge given, age is not generally considered a benefit. Age also does not confer authority

[wenglund]

Different, yes, but still pretty coercive, IMO.

 

I didn't realize that some people consider edifying rewards to be coercive, Interesting.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[omni]

 

The idea to have Helen sealed to Joseph Smith was her father's, not Joseph's.

 

 

Irrelevant.

 

After the sealing, Helen continued to live with her parents.

Evidence suggests that Helen never lived with Joseph or even spent any time alone with him.

 

 

Many of Joseph's wives did not live with him.  Polygamy was still a secret and would have been especially scandalous for Helen to live with him.  I doubt they were able to spend a lot of time alone together considering Joseph had 33 wives and the business of running the church while evading anti-Mormon mobs.  I'm curious as to what evidence you have that they never spent any time alone with him.  I don't know if Joseph had relations with her, but we do know that it was certainly allowable and actually encouraged as a way of "raise up a righteous seed".

 

Evidence suggests that Helen saw this as a sealing and not as a typical marriage.

 

 

“My father was the first to introduce it to me, which had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake. When he found (after the first outburst of displeasure for supposed injury) that I received it meekly, he took the first opportunity to introduce Sarah Ann [Whitney] to me as Joseph's wife"

 

Doesn't sound like someone who saw it as just a sealing and not a typical marriage.

 

 

 

While she was sealed to Joseph and before he was killed, Helen was upset with her father because he wouldn't let her go to dances and hang out with her friends, including the boy she liked.  This, again suggests, strongly, that Helen did not consider herself married in the normal sense of the word.

 

 

 

“my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself  an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

 

Sounds to me more like a typical 14 year old girl wanting to be out playing and dancing with her friends rather than stuck in a marriage with someone she rarely saw.

 

Your continued insistence on calling Joesph Smith to have done something immoral, in regards to Helen Kimball, in the face of all the evidence, I find to be disgusting.

 

 

Oh, the irony...

Edited October 11, 2013 by omni

[Glenn101]

Different, yes, but still pretty coercive, IMO.

 

 

But, did Helen feel it was coercive??? Years later she was defending polygamy very spiritedly and cogently.

 

It is interesting to note that she did not pray for a testimony of the practice, at least not at first. She accepted it because of the belief she had in the integrity and spirituality of her father and of Joseph. This was something that she never wavered on. Nor did she ever waver on her testimony of the gospel nor of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Maybe we should listen to what she had to say rather than what we wish to believe about the circumstances.

 

Glenn

[jkwilliams]

But, did Helen feel it was coercive??? Years later she was defending polygamy very spiritedly and cogently.

 

It is interesting to note that she did not pray for a testimony of the practice, at least not at first. She accepted it because of the belief she had in the integrity and spirituality of her father and of Joseph. This was something that she never wavered on. Nor did she ever waver on her testimony of the gospel nor of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Maybe we should listen to what she had to say rather than what we wish to believe about the circumstances.

 

Glenn

 

It doesn't much matter what she did years later. She recognized at the time that she was purchasing a great reward by marrying Joseph, and I will never believe that a 14 year old whose father and a prophet of God want her to do something is in a position to make an informed and free choice. This doesn't bother some people, but it bothers me. Even if I believed the church was true, it would still be troubling to me.

[Calm]

 

While she was sealed to Joseph and before he was killed, Helen was upset with her father because he wouldn't let her go to dances and hang out with her friends, including the boy she liked.  This, again suggests, strongly, that Helen did not consider herself married in the normal sense of the word.

Additional info on this is that her father wouldn't let her do this because of the "blacklegs" at the dances, not because she was sealed to JS and it was JS who told her father about the "blacklegs" when he could have told her father to simply hold her back from the dances she had been going to for at least six months after the sealing took place.

 

And after Helen saw how the reputations of the girls who had gone to the dances were damaged, she expressed gratitude that she had been protected from such.

[Calm]

CFR on the idea that power differential based on age compounds the sin?

If power differential is what is sinful about a marriage, then marriages prior to this century were likely mostly sinful and many in this century qualify as well.  

 

I would like to see how age made a difference in how a woman was treated in her marriage in the past.