Stuff I Would Just As Soon Not Known

[JLHPROF]

So, does that mean that, like Supreme Court justices, we all need to read or ogle plenty of porn so that we will know the difference?

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

[Stone holm]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

 

Gave you a bump on this.  Very good points.

[foster]

So, does that mean that, like Supreme Court justices, we all need to read or ogle plenty of porn so that we will know the difference?

Ha! Highly doubt the justification of "knowing the bitter(immodesty) from the sweet(modesty)" would pass muster with many Priesthood leaders as acceptable for viewing inappropriate materials.

[foster]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

I never thought it that way. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Avatar4321]

I dont want to know anything that would cause me to apostasize and lose the blessings of heaven, yet I do have a desire to know the truth of all things. Because such knowledge is a part of my faith. The Lord has commanded us to prepare our minds and hearts for the knowledge and wisdom of the heavens. If a piece of knowledge may cause me to fall away now, i would hope that I would someday be able to endure that truth and knowledge.

 

Let's be faithful and dilligent in seeking knowledge and wisdom. For it's easier to turn the Missouri river upstream than to prevent the Lord from pouring down knowledge upon the heads of the latter day saints.

[Avatar4321]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

 

Interesting you mention that quote. I just read it this morning. Ive been rereading "Brother Brigham challenges the Saints" by Brother Nibley. One of my favorite books by him. It just helps me realize how neglectful I am with my faith in beautifying my mind and the world around me.

[Stargazer]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

 

The thing about avoiding speculation I am pretty sure involves idle public rumination and discussion about things the Spirit will make known to us when we are ready, and God is good and ready. 

[CV75]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

D&C 88: 49-69 teaches that with the Lord’s guidance, nothing is unknowable, and that all things are knowable. “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him... And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.” The key to knowing all things is “light” in its many meanings.

 

There are conditions to this attainment of knowledge and comprehension described in the parable: they come from “the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season… Every man in his own order, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified… every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.” In the Lord’s words, we are to “call upon me while I am near— Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you… that is expedient for you…”

 

I think the tension arises when people take an approach that is not guided by the Light of Christ. And of course everyone must discern and decide for himself whether he is in line with the principles laid out in D&C 88 (but he better be right!).

 

I think a fuller Joseph Smith quote reads: “A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God” – just as Jesus descended below all things and ascended above all things, but only in accordance with His Father’s will.

[Stone holm]

D&C 88: 49-69 teaches that with the Lord’s guidance, nothing is unknowable, and that all things are knowable. “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him... And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.” The key to knowing all things is “light” in its many meanings.

 

There are conditions to this attainment of knowledge and comprehension described in the parable: they come from “the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season… Every man in his own order, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified… every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.” In the Lord’s words, we are to “call upon me while I am near— Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you… that is expedient for you…”

 

I think the tension arises when people take an approach that is not guided by the Light of Christ. And of course everyone must discern and decide for himself whether he is in line with the principles laid out in D&C 88 (but he better be right!).

 

I think a fuller Joseph Smith quote reads: “A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God” – just as Jesus descended below all things and ascended above all things, but only in accordance with His Father’s will.

 

Good points.  I think sometimes we get information that the Lord wants us to have from sources that we would not expect.  Still,  I suspect that it might be better if we were getting some of the information straight from the Church rather than searching the net for it.  But that is just my NSHO.

[CV75]

Good points.  I think sometimes we get information that the Lord wants us to have from sources that we would not expect.  Still,  I suspect that it might be better if we were getting some of the information straight from the Church rather than searching the net for it.  But that is just my NSHO.

It depends on where the Light of Christ or the Spirit guides us. I agree that, as a general rule of thumb, the Church is certainly the best first source for making Church-related inquiries. But the first rule of thumb before that is to seek knowledge by faith and with the Holy Spirit, having the right intent, attitude and sentiments, keeping the covenants, and so forth (whatever it takes to have the right relationship with the Lord). Otherwise we are limited and even sabotaged by our own power (capacity, methods, opportunities, motives, expectations, etc.) to learn.

[Robert F. Smith]

It depends on where the Light of Christ or the Spirit guides us. I agree that, as a general rule of thumb, the Church is certainly the best first source for making Church-related inquiries. But the first rule of thumb before that is to seek knowledge by faith and with the Holy Spirit, having the right intent, attitude and sentiments, keeping the covenants, and so forth (whatever it takes to have the right relationship with the Lord). Otherwise we are limited and even sabotaged by our own power (capacity, methods, opportunities, motives, expectations, etc.) to learn.

I agree, and there is more to say:

D&C 109:

14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said;

15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

[Robert F. Smith]

Probably not...but Joseph Smith did teach that:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. (One of my favorite quotes)

 

If Joseph Smith had "avoided speculation" as we are so often admonished to do, we wouldn't have Baptism, the Priesthood, and definitely not the Temple ordinances.  He read the scriptures, formed educated hypotheses, and prayed about them until he received a revelation.  Wanting to know the unknowable is how the Gospel was restored.

There is a plethora of evil and horror out there, and once you've seen it or experienced it (as those who must closely examine homicide scenes, and the like, must do) it is not possible to just forget it.  Thus, one ought to constantly keep in mind this piece of advice:

D&C 121:

45 .... let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

 

I feel for the bishops and others (including Roamn Catholic priests who must hear confession) who must deal with the seamy side of life on a regular basis.  Without the protective mantle of virtue and the Holy Ghost, they have no hope of surviving such encounters.

[Bernard Gui]

 

Unfortunately, in the process of doing that internet research I got exposed to stuff I would just as soon not have thought about, namely: all the posts arguing over whether Mitt Romney had received the Second Annointing  and whether Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun have had their Temple work done.

I don't see the problem with Adolph and Braun. If anyone has need of the Atonement it would be them.

[CV75]

 

I agree, and there is more to say:

D&C 109:

14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said;

15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

 

Yes, this was in the back of mind when I posted. The Lord guides us to the best books, and some of the best learning can be taken from what transpires in His house, where we become the "epistle of Christ" by virtue of what is written "with the Spirit of the living God... in fleshy tables of the heart."

[WmLaw]

Eva, maybe, but Adolf?  We certainly know that the work must be done for all.  But in his case, I think that the assignment to category Perdition is a foregone conclusion.

Did Hitler meet all the requirements to be a son of perdition?  

[JLHPROF]

Did Hitler meet all the requirements to be a son of perdition?  

Nope.  Not based on what we know to be the requirements.

[ERayR]

Nope.  Not based on what we know to be the requirements.

 

But there may be some things we do not know about Hitler.  We do not know what information he had.   I think you are right but we can't really know.

[Stone holm]

Nope.  Not based on what we know to be the requirements.

 

Possibly not, there was, however, a certain amount of occultism that was associated with Nazism so it is unclear what may have been going on in his head.  While the Church was branded as an enemy of the State, it was not put on his banned list as some Christian sects were, and we do not know the extent of his knowledge.  According to the Joseph F. Smith position it takes a considerable amount of actual knowledge to become a Son of Perdition, somewhat less under the stance that Talmage took.  I think it is fairly safe to say "I don't know." as Pres. Kimball did.  One would strongly suspect, however, that he blew the Celestial Opportunity, unless you are of the opinion that there is potential migration between the Kingdoms which I am not.

[JLHPROF]

Possibly not, there was, however, a certain amount of occultism that was associated with Nazism so it is unclear what may have been going on in his head.  While the Church was branded as an enemy of the State, it was not put on his banned list as some Christian sects were, and we do not know the extent of his knowledge.  According to the Joseph F. Smith position it takes a considerable amount of actual knowledge to become a Son of Perdition, somewhat less under the stance that Talmage took.  I think it is fairly safe to say "I don't know." as Pres. Kimball did.  One would strongly suspect, however, that he blew the Celestial Opportunity, unless you are of the opinion that there is potential migration between the Kingdoms which I am not.

In my understanding, it isn't just knowledge, it's ordinances too.  Ordinances sufficient to receive perhaps the second comforter.

 

Joseph Smith taught that to become a son of perdition, a person must "have the heavens opened unto him, and know God....He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.358).

 

I doubt very much that the heavens were ever opened to Hitler.

[Daniel Peterson]

So should a member stay ignorant because they avoid general internet research on Church matters, and simply go with the sanitized stuff put out by the Church?

 

Those two options don't seem to me to come anywhere close to exhausting the possibilities.

[EllenMaksoud]

I had always felt that in the Church knowledge was a blessing and that we should encourage members as knowledgeable as possible by reading not only the Scriptures, but the sayings of the Prophets, and the History of the Church.  I also always felt that the more knowledge people had including the blemishes and awkward prior activities, the better.  As a result I was normally critical of the attempts to sanitize our history and deny the influence of politics, culture and the world on the Church.   But of late, I have begun to feel that perhaps there are some things that I now know that I would possibly have been better off not knowing.

 

This feeling has arisen as a result of the doctrine of the Second Annointing.  I have tended to do my study based on the Journal of Discourses and teachings of the Prophets, and have shied away from the internet because there is so much false information on it and vicious articles written by former members and professional ministers.  So when the subject came up and I got berated for not having done internet research, I did some internet research and it looks fairly obvious if you were surfing the net you would have known about the rite of the Second Annointing even if the Church hadn’t really openly taught it.

 

Unfortunately, in the process of doing that internet research I got exposed to stuff I would just as soon not have thought about, namely: all the posts arguing over whether Mitt Romney had received the Second Annointing  and whether Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun have had their Temple work done.  So the problem as I see it, is that it is very distasteful to have to do internet research in order to find out things about the Church, and in the process get exposed to stuff you would rather not know.  So should a member stay ignorant because they avoid general internet research on Church matters, and simply go with the sanitized stuff put out by the Church?

I would perhaps ask myself if I can be part of the solution, and how this unseemly knowlege can benefit your walk?  I don't need to know that another sister, who I rarely see is as mad as a hatter at times. This morning sitting right there on CNN is information about a family that seemed sketchy, so I consulted wiki. In conclusion, the perpetrator is in prison, and the victims seem to be recovering. The law handled it and I did not need to know.

[Stone holm]

In my understanding, it isn't just knowledge, it's ordinances too.  Ordinances sufficient to receive perhaps the second comforter.

 

Joseph Smith taught that to become a son of perdition, a person must "have the heavens opened unto him, and know God....He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.358).

 

I doubt very much that the heavens were ever opened to Hitler.

 

I tend to agree with you, but it might be offensive to some to think of Hitler as anything other than a Son of Perdition.  What is meant by "the heavens opened unto him" is something we do not actually have a model of clarity on.  For example Cain, who I believe is the only confirmed SOP that comes readily to mind, has no stated history of such an encounter before he murders Abel -- however, we know from restored Scripture that he apparently conspired directly with Satan before the murder.  So from that one might conjecture that it is possible somehow for you to get a good enough idea from Satan that you are fighting against the living Christ to get the job done.  I could be wrong on that -- that is pure speculation on my part -- but if that were the case, and further if Hitler was in fact dabbling in the occult, then there is a possibility that Outer Darkness may be his future venue.  Again sheer speculation on my part.

[volgadon]

I don't think that it is. We would need to see just what happened in his life when he was a child. He had a very loving mother but a not so loving father. He also came under the influences of certain ideological influences that were prevalent in Austria at the time of his youth Not to mention his reading by American authors in Eugenics. And then we would need to see the economic conditions in which he lived as a young man---not good. And how he interpreted the treaty that caused such hardship among the german population. He was a product of his time. Interestingly, when one reads the memoirs of those closest to him, his secretary, valet, photographer and driver, all said that he was a very nice guy and he treated those closest to him rather well. He loved children and was a real charmer with the ladies.

 

But he was a psychopath.

 

There is a certain vulgar term similar to bullocks. Little else is applicable here.

[volgadon]

Nope.  Not based on what we know to be the requirements.

 

Are you sure? The delibarate, sustained attempt to destroy entire groups of God's children- his brothers and sisters created in the image and likeness of God- to me would signify someone who would reject Christ himself.

[volgadon]

I'm not bothered about this at all, except that some people get really worked up about it.  Not that I have any esteem at all for AH.  I tell you, that if I had gone to an endowment session and seen that the person I was doing the work for was The AH himself, I would refuse to participate.  But that it got done?  Whatever. 

 

Are we aware that Genghis Khan has probably had his work done, too?  I am not going to bother to check.  But Genghis Khan's descendants are reputed to number in the millions -- GH had wives and concubines like nobody's business (It is said that his harem reached anywhere from 2,000–3,000 women, and his son's did similarly), and did a fair amount of raping, all in a day's work.  GH excelled Hitler and Stalin in numbers of people converted to mulch.  It is written "Overall, the Mongol violence and depredations killed up to three-fourths of the population of the Iranian Plateau, possibly 10 to 15 million people."  And that's just one geographic area.  Are we going to go ballistic because the Great Khan has had his work done?  How about many other mass murderers?

 

I think we can safely leave this whole issue in the hands of God.  Stop stressing over it!

 

Edited to Add:

 

I am so dense sometimes.  You're not stressing over AH & Co getting their work done, so much as concerned that some supposed Latter-day Saint would submit the names and/or do the work for them.  That's understandable.  Of course AH has no descendants, but possibly blood relatives still living, and maybe maybe a blood relative has become a member of the Church.

 

My personal theory is that some wolf-in-sheeps-clothing of a member has submitted these names, not a faithful member.  Since there is a so-called journalist in SLC who loves to go looking for these things and tar the Church with it.

 

 

Oh, and what are you going to do, if, when you get to the other side, that Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin repented of the evil they had done, received the benefit of the Atonement, and even (gasp!) received Exaltation?  Would it be like the fuddy-duddies who gave back their OBE's because the Beatles got it, too?  You'd protest by handing back your Exaltation?

 

Not that I expect it to come to a question.  Just for the sake of argument.

 

It's in God's hands, though.  I trust Him fully.

 

If God chooses to exalt them, it is his business, he can handle it. I honestly don't know where you got the idea that I would protest by handing back my exaltation, and to baptise Chingiz Khan is wrong, too. How about many other mass murderers? The exact same thing.