First Presidency Approved Council Of Fifty Minutes For Publication!

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't think that's the case. Mormon Enigma. In Sacred Lonliness.

Not clear on why you think an Amazon listing necessarily proves a book isn't out of print. Amazon does sell out-of-print titles, depending on availability.

[Calm]

ISL seems to be for sale still:  http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/

 

Same with:  http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/87sqp6ym9780252062919.html

 

OTOH, it still might not be worth it to DB to devote shelf space to keeping them in inventory, depending on how often they are asked for....which wouldn't necessarily be the same rate as amazon gets asked, so I don't think we can really assume anything without behind the scenes knowledge.

 

I know that there were several books at the bookstore I worked at in Calgary that were never purchased that were bestsellers through the FairMormon bookstore.  Just a different market.

Edited September 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, I'm unable to post new topics. 

 

I'm currently listening to an older podcast, 2012, about JS committing treason.  It mentions prophesies in the BOM found in 3 Nephi: 16:21, Mormon 5:24 and D&C 87.  Apparently the Council of the Fifty was organized in March 1844 as a means for bringing a theocratic body together for a living constitution.  They sent out proclamations to kings around the world and the president of the United States, that all rulers of the kingdom of God will be established in March 1844.  The council was sworn to secrecy and became princes in the kingdom.  They would get up cells and go throughout the US to build kingdoms.  Not only JS was declared a king but John Taylor and Brigham Young.  The podcast also mentions meetings with the Indians that they would tell them that the US lands belonged to them and convert them to LDS church.  When enough were converted they would make an alliance to overthrow the government.  

 

Some of the above sounds ludicrous, I was wondering if the actual minutes can be read now, to disprove the treason account.  Can someone connect me to some information about this?  I'm going down a rabbit hole again and don't want to go down it.  I'm going to read the wiki on the Council of the Fifty and see how this podcast differs, but it would be nice to read the minutes, if I can get through all of them.  Btw, some think we have a government within a government here in Utah.  Not trying to kick up dust.  But if we have nothing to hide then why shouldn't members ask.  I hope knowledge of history will help the church evolve to be more and more Christ centered.

 

EDITED:  Listening to this current podcast, May 16, 2015.  In this episode Gwen Hutchings interviews Jedediah Rogers, the author of The Council of 50: A Documentary History http://rationalfaiths.com/?powerpress_pinw=22695-podcast . Very informative so far.  I'm listening if it counteracts some claims from the older podcast's information by Grant Palmer.  Does Grant just lie all the time though?  After listening some more, I heard that the Council of the Fifty will be published in 2016.       

Edited May 19, 2015 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Who are the people making the claim?

[bjw]

I bought a book called "Dynasty of the Holy Grail" from Deseret Book by Vern Swanson and it says the purpose of the council was to crown JS king of Israel, and a color plate in the book's center shows them doing the Hosanna Shout during the kingship ceremony. The book also asserts this was the fulfillment of the Messiah ben Joseph prophecy. So, I too am curious if this will still be the church's position. Maybe JS is looked at as more of a spiritual king than an earthly one.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I bought a book called "Dynasty of the Holy Grail" from Deseret Book by Vern Swanson and it says the purpose of the council was to crown JS king of Israel, and a color plate in the book's center shows them doing the Hosanna Shout during the kingship ceremony. The book also asserts this was the fulfillment of the Messiah ben Joseph prophecy. So, I too am curious if this will still be the church's position. Maybe JS is looked at as more of a spiritual king than an earthly one.

So maybe James J. Strang was on to something?

[mapman]

You've got some of the information right, but a little mixed up. The theology behind it isn't entirely clear still (presumably when the minutes are published that should help clarify things), but it was the organization that ran Joseph Smith's presidential campaign, it researched and planned out the trek west (the council also considered Texas, Oregon, and California as places to go before settling on Salt Lake), and functioned as the government in Utah at the beginning before they got the territorial government set up. John Taylor was anointed king in Israel over the council of fifty, and it appears that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were as well.  What exactly that meant is up to debate, but to me it seems like it was probably connected to the temple and the second anointing, becoming a king or queen in Israel.

 

As for the proclamation, Joseph Smith recieved a revelation about it in 1841 (DC 121:1-11), but it was actually written and sent out after Joseph Smith's death in 1845 by the 12 apostles. You can read it here. There isn't anything about world domination.

 

As for the Indians, what you are repeating is basically the biggest fear that non-Mormons had about their Mormon neighbors, that they would ally with the Indians and kill everybody. People in that era opressed the Indians as well as blacks, and so were always paranoid about slave revolts and Indian attacks. Naturally it made people uneasy when the Mormons tended to treat the Indians and blacks well (Mormons would become less friendly in Utah as they tried to assert their whiteness). I don't think that there is any evidence that Joseph Smith was planning anything violent, but I'm sure that he believed in the prophecy found in the Book of Mormon:

 

And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds; And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers; Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands; And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities. And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away. For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at thatday whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel; And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem. And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem. And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst. (3 Nephi 21:12-25)

 

 

Mormon-Indian relations is an important part of church history that gets largely overlooked, but it was central to how the early saints viewed the end times. Joseph Smith's "Civil War Prophecy" says that the second coming will be preceeded by revolution among the "remnant of Jacob" (ie the Indians) and former slaves. The Council of Fifty was meant to protect persecuted minorities, such as Mormons, blacks, Indians, and other religious minorities. I'd guess that a lot of people at the time would have considered that treason, but looking back, I see it as being noble.

 

I suggest that you read this article about Mormon-Indian relations.

Edited May 19, 2015 by mapman

[Scott Lloyd]

This is HUGE. It's like the Mormon History Geek's Holy Grail.

 

From the article:

 

 

It's been a big, un-addressed question for a while if these would be utilized. This is ... wow. A whole cache of notes and documents formerly unavailable to researchers that likely contain expressions of theological views of Joseph. It's hard to express how big this is, and how much this could change and clarify our understanding of Joseph's mindset and teachings towards the end of his life.

I think it worth noting that after this announcement came out, some of the principals at the Church History Department gave a presentation at a Mormon History Association conference in which they gave a rather thorough exposition of what is in the Council of Fifty minutes.

 

It wasn't quite like Al Capone's vault, but I think it fair to say the minutes did not turn out to have the sensational, mysterious or game-changing content that many thought they would.

[mapman]

The Joseph Smith Papers team posted an excerpt from the minutes a while ago on their website which I think explains pretty well what Joseph Smith's vision for the Council was. When questioned why he had appointed some non-Mormons to be part of the council, he answered that it was 

to show that in the organization of this kingdom men are not consulted as to their religious opinions or notions in any shape or form whatever and that we act upon the broad and liberal principal that all men have equal rights, and ought to be respected, and that every man has a privilege in this organization of choosing for himself voluntarily his God, and what he pleases for his religion. . . . God cannot save or damn a man only on the principle that every man acts, chooses and worships for himself; hence the importance of thrusting from us every spirit of bigotry and intollerance towards a man[’]s religious sentiments, that spirit which has drenched the earth with blood. . . . It becomes our duty on account of this intollerance and corruption—the inalienable right of man being to think as he pleases—worship as he pleases &c being the first law of every thing that is sacred—to guard every ground all the days of our lives. I will appeal to every man in this council . . . to say that the principles of intollerance and bigotry never had a place in this kingdom, nor in my breast, and that he is even then ready to die rather than yeild to such things. Nothing can reclaim the human mind from its ignorance, bigotry, superstition &c but those grand and sublime principles of equal rights and universal freedom to all men.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/news/2014

[ERayR]

So, I too am curious if this will still be the church's position. Maybe JS is looked at as more of a spiritual king than an earthly one.

 

So maybe James J. Strang was on to something?

 

So isn't that the goal of all faithful followers?

[Bob Crockett]

The Joseph Smith's papers link is great..... after 180 years of not saying anything 

 

Bogus.   There's Essentials in Church History, which for decades was the mainstay in most of the Saints' homes.  It plainly says Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage.  The word "polyandry" is just the modern sociological term for it.  So bogus. 

[bjw]

Bogus.   There's Essentials in Church History, which for decades was the mainstay in most of the Saints' homes.  It plainly says Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage.  The word "polyandry" is just the modern sociological term for it.  So bogus.

I thought "polyandry" refers to men marrying other men's wives, and "polygyny" refers to a man having more than one wife, and both fall under the category of "polygamy," or plural marriage.

[Nevo]

Bogus.   There's Essentials in Church History, which for decades was the mainstay in most of the Saints' homes.  It plainly says Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage.

 

Here's the big reveal in Essentials in Church History:

 

"[D&C 132] also contains the doctrine of plural wives. This doctrine was made known to the Prophet as early as the summer of 1831, and by him was taught to a few others, but it was not practiced until the Lord commanded it. Secrecy was imposed by the Lord until such time as he saw fit for its introduction. When the Prophet was commanded to practice this principle, he hesitated and deferred taking action for some time. To do so was one of the greatest trials of his life. He knew the doctrine was in conflict with the traditions and teachings of the world and would arouse increased persecution; moreover, his own prejudices were in opposition to the doctrine. However, the Lord had commanded him and he must act."

 

There's not a word said about polyandry. In fact, there are no details at all about Joseph Smith's polygamy. No names of wives. No dates of sealings. Nothing. There isn't even an explicit statement that Joseph practiced polygamy. Instead we get the odd construction that the Lord commanded Joseph to practice polygamy "and he must act."

 

Anyway, Bill is correct. The candid discussion of Joseph's polyandrous marriages in the JSP Journals, Volume 2, really is unprecedented for a Church-approved publication. The closest any publication came before that was John Widtsoe's Joseph Smith: Seeker After Truth, Prophet of God.¹

____________________________________

 

¹  "Another kind of celestial marriage seems to have been practiced in the early days of plural marriage. . . . Zealous women, some of them married as well as unmarried, loving the cause of the restored gospel, considered their condition in the hereafter and asked that they might be sealed to the Prophet for eternity. They were not to be his wives on earth, in mortality, but only after death, in the eternities."

[Avatar4321]

Ought to be some interesting reads.

[DBMormon]

 

Anyway, Bill is correct. 

I like the sound of that.....   Don't hear that much in these parts of the woods.

Edited May 24, 2015 by DBMormon