The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[canard78]

Sorry missed this...the new post function misfunctioned for me again.

 

PS:  really hate how the quote function is functioning these days...

 

Me too. It makes it really hard to quote and then chop the quote up to be able to answer different parts.

[Bikeemikey]

No, I am interpreting the scriptures exactly how it says. God says "there shall be none greater". So let me ask- when God says "thou shall not steal" is he meaining only in old testament times? It seems ambiguous and even if it was just during their time it would still cover a period of 2,000 years. The greatest civilization would also leave the greatest evidences of their doings in the land. Just exactly what we see in my opinion.

You can not interpret something "exactly how it says". That would simply be repeating.

For a text be subject to interpretation at all, which you seem to agree the BOM does allow, would demonstrate the text is subject to ambiguity.

[Rob Osborn]

You can not interpret something "exactly how it says". That would simply be repeating. For a text be subject to interpretation at all, which you seem to agree the BOM does allow, would demonstrate the text is subject to ambiguity.

Lets stop splitting hairs and getting confused. The Jaredites were a great and mighty nation- none other greater on the earth.

[Freedom]

No, I am interpreting the scriptures exactly how it says. God says "there shall be none greater". So let me ask- when God says "thou shall not steal" is he meaining only in old testament times? It seems ambiguous and even if it was just during their time it would still cover a period of 2,000 years. The greatest civilization would also leave the greatest evidences of their doings in the land. Just exactly what we see in my opinion.

 

So you are suggesting that they were greater than the Soviet Union and the British Empire? The verse expressly refer to a nation raised up to God. So we would have to compare it to ancient Israel and the Nephites. I do not know of any others. Regardless, you have yet to define what is meant by 'non greater nation' and what it means by 'all the face of the earth'. Remember, the notion of a planet is a very modern idea. Earth to us means a whole lot more than it did in the distant past. One of the definitions of earth is land so you should avoid projecting a very modern definition of a term upon an ancient text. So we have the greatest nation raised up to God on all the face of the earth/land. Canada is considered the greatest nation on the planet. Were you aware of that?

[Freedom]

Lets stop splitting hairs and getting confused. The Jaredites were a great and mighty nation- none other greater on the earth.

Yes, you are right. I give up. I was wrong. They had nuclear weapons, a vast digital network, 99.99% literacy, .002% infant mortality, they had a vast education network ranging from preschools to universities. Nobody has surpassed their understanding of physics, biology and ping pong. They had a population 10 times that of modern day China, and there is no evidence of internal conflict, murder, or any other sort of transgression. They only smoked pot for medicinal purposes and although they had mastered the internal combustion engine they rarely used it because of their deep concern for the ozone. Not only did they reach the moon, but they also built vast cities on Mars, which is where the Hill Ramah is likely located. Good grief.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Freedom

[Questing Beast]

"GREATEST NATION": Bigger and more impressive than the Nephites, that's for sure. If the "Maya" are Nephites, if Mesoamerica is "Nephite", then whatever the Jaredites built would be more impressive than that, as Limhi's explorers found out....

[ksfisher]

Not too hard to figure out- it would be the greatest nation on earth. Read the text, they were blessed in almost every aspect- they were large and mighty men, they lived very long, had lots of children, built lots of buildings, etc, etc.

All of the words you used are subjective and very open to differing interpretations: large, mighty, long, lots.

Is building lots of buildings great in God's eye? Is that how God judges greatness?

Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature ... for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

I think that if we are looking for the greatest nation, people, whatever on earth we would be looking for the people with the purest hearts, not for the ones with the tallest buildings.

Edited September 19, 2013 by ksfisher

[SargentYork]

"GREATEST NATION": Bigger and more impressive than the Nephites, that's for sure. If the "Maya" are Nephites, if Mesoamerica is "Nephite", then whatever the Jaredites built would be more impressive than that, as Limhi's explorers found out....

 

Maybe I've forgotten something, but I don't recall anythin in The Book of Mormon that requires the conclusion that the Jaradite civilization was bigger and better than the Nephite civilization.

 

Do you have a particular passage in mind?

[cursor]

Why did Brigham Young journey his peoples 1,300 miles to escape mob rule in Nauvoo? Surely there must have some place they passed by that was safe?

 

I might consider addressing your question, if you'll not continue to ingnore the points that I made in post #482:

 

So ... you're OK with

 

1) the idea that the hill Cumorah is in what is currently Palmyra NY, near the eastern seaboard.

2) that the land of Moron (the central land of the Jaredites) is somewhere in Mexico.

3) that Omer, to stay safe from Akish, traveled thousands of miles to the north ... to the eastern seaboard of what is now the US.

4) that Nimrah, son of Akish, traveled those same thousands of miles to hang out with Omer and his family (and didn't get lost).

5) that when civil uprise at Moron was done (with only 30 folks left alive), Omer and Nimrah return (thousands of miles) to the land of Moron.

 

Man ... talk about a fairy tale! 

 

What sense does it make that Omer and Nimrah, with their clans, would reverse their journey back to the land of Moron (thousands of miles) ... to rule over a measly 30 individuals? Where's the logic? How could Omer have ANY idea that the civil war that was occurring in the land of Moron was over? Hey ... maybe one of those remaining 30 sent him an email.

 

Really, would YOU go back?

Edited September 20, 2013 by cursor

[ksfisher]

 

 

Hey ... maybe one of those remaining 30 sent him an email.

The message came, of course, by carrier coatl.

[canard78]

Lets stop splitting hairs and getting confused. The Jaredites were a great and mighty nation- none other greater on the earth.

 

I'm sure the Perfect Communicator knows how to make people feel special. But he's asked before for people to stop taking everything said (via prophets) so literally. D&C 19:7 for example...

[Freedom]

The scriptures teach truth, but in multiple ways. For Rob, we must only take it literally and interpret the vocabulary based on early 21st century definitions. But in reality, all literature presents information in various ways. I don't recall where I got this list from, but it is a good example of why we must be careful:

• Literally - Jesus is God's Son, physically rose from the dead, bodily ascended to the Father and will return, literally.
• Poetically - As in much of Psalms and Song of Solomon, even in Christ' teaching.
• Metaphorically - Many of Jesus' parables and illustrations.
• Rhetorically - Acts 1:18-19. Did all---every last bit---of Judas' intestines spill out? Did everyone in Jerusalem here about this---to a person? Or is Luke saying the news was widespread, difficult to have missed?
• Descriptively - "Jesus said to the servants, 'Fill these jars with water' so they filled them to brim."

So Paul would choose to put all comments in the literal box and never consider that often language is rhetorical or metaphoric. He has been warned a thousand times about the use of rhetoric, but perhaps the deep and powerful metaphorical references to Cumorah elude him.

[Rob Osborn]

Maybe I've forgotten something, but I don't recall anythin in The Book of Mormon that requires the conclusion that the Jaradite civilization was bigger and better than the Nephite civilization.

 

Do you have a particular passage in mind?

Sure deal-

Ether6:28, 7:11,19, 9:16-19,23, 10:4-5,12,20-28. Mosiah 8:7-12

Moroni explains at the height of their civilization-

20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

21 And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

22 And they were exceedingly industrious, and they did buy and sell and traffic one with another, that they might get gain.

23 And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.

24 And they did have silks, and fine-twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, that they might clothe themselves from their nakedness.

25 And they did make all manner of tools to till the earth, both to plow and to sow, to reap and to hoe, and also to thrash.

26 And they did make all manner of tools with which they did work their beasts.

27 And they did make all manner of weapons of war. And they did work all manner of work of exceedingly curious workmanship.

28 And never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord. And they were in a land that was choice above all lands, for the Lord had spoken it.

Moroni, speaking in hindsight of his own mighty but fallen nation states in his abridgement that never could a people be more blessed and prospwrous as were the Jaredites. Thus- the Jaredites were a more mighty nation than the Nephite nation.

[Rob Osborn]

I might consider addressing your question, if you'll not continue to ingnore the points that I made in post #482:

 

 

What sense does it make that Omer and Nimrah, with their clans, would reverse their journey back to the land of Moron (thousands of miles) ... to rule over a measly 30 individuals? Where's the logic? How could Omer have ANY idea that the civil war that was occurring in the land of Moron was over? Hey ... maybe one of those remaining 30 sent him an email.

 

Really, would YOU go back?

The Jaredite nation was several hundred years in progress at this point and the people had become exceedingly numerous. Omer is warned in a dream to depart the land. And so Omer departs the land, travels across many lands to be safe and for whatever reasons he saw fit. After the great war he returns to the kingdom. I am not really sure where there is a problem? We know the Inca had lines of communication over their kingdom for thousands of miles. So perhaps I just dont get your point. Ancient civilizations were perfectly capable of traveling and communicating over extremely long distances, history has proven that.

[Questing Beast]

Maybe I've forgotten something, but I don't recall anythin in The Book of Mormon that requires the conclusion that the Jaradite civilization was bigger and better than the Nephite civilization.

 

Do you have a particular passage in mind?

Mosiah 8:8 But then later it was said that they thought they had discovered Zarahemla and it was destroyed, so that doesn't exactly fit "as numerous as the hosts of Israel", does it? Surely the Nephites never considered themselves as numerous as the hosts of Israel, being a solitary and lonesome people cut off from the land of their fathers, etc. But the Jaredites, now, that was a different thing altogether, leaving behind a land "covered with bones", etc....

[Robert F. Smith]

And yet with all the firestorm headed my way I see no one- not one, has put forth the evidence of a major battle a Cerro Vigia....interesting!

I am unaware of major archeological work being done at either location.  Would you like to fund an excavation?  They cost real money.

[Robert F. Smith]

Not too hard to figure out- it would be the greatest nation on earth. Read the text, they were blessed in almost every aspect- they were large and mighty men, they lived very long, had lots of children, built lots of buildings, etc, etc.

Sounds pretty generic to me.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Jaredite nation was several hundred years in progress at this point and the people had become exceedingly numerous. Omer is warned in a dream to depart the land. And so Omer departs the land, travels across many lands to be safe and for whatever reasons he saw fit. After the great war he returns to the kingdom. I am not really sure where there is a problem? We know the Inca had lines of communication over their kingdom for thousands of miles. So perhaps I just dont get your point. Ancient civilizations were perfectly capable of traveling and communicating over extremely long distances, history has proven that.

We know about the Inca lines of communication throughout their empire because we still have the paths and bridges that were maintained by the locals.  That society was well integrated and governed.  We have no such features of the long-distance travel you suggest for Book of Mormon peoples.  No evidence at all.

[Robert F. Smith]

From the church's official Guide to the Scriptures defining the Hill Cumorah-

A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2–4

Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6:4

Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6:6

All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6:11

We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128:20

Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, JS—H 1:42, 50–54, 59

You have obviously confused the Mesoamerican Cumorah with the New York hill "convenient to the village of Manchester" (JS-H 1:51).   Why doesn't Joseph or the angel call it "Cumorah" right off the bat?  You'll note that the hill was not named for many years, until someone not thinking very deeply decided that they must be the same hill.  Is this a problem?  No, simply because one doesn't depend on such marginal stuff for one's salvation.  Is the subject of interest to archeologists and historians.  Yes.  Why wouldn't it?

[Robert F. Smith]

God promised that from the Jaredites seed a mighty nation would arise that would be greater than all other nation on the entire earth. You can read whatever you want into that but I believe it literally- the Jaredites were the greatest nation to ever walk the earth.

I dobt know where or what you are alluding to with the Mayan language being helped deciphering by someone who wad Egyptian but everyone knows there is no connection between Mayan and Egyptian glyphs.

Trusting archaeologists is like trusting the weatherman and luckily we dont have to rely on archaeologists to state the BoM is true because if we did, the BoM would be the greaest fairy tale ever written according to them. Thats the number one reason I dont rely on archaeologists as to who peopled the Americeas- they are just plain wrong!

The connections of all the meso-Americans have tell me they all came from the same source. Its a no-brainer for me. Just the connections between the Olmec and Mayan tell me that they were not separate peoples but rather just separated by sone years

Well, I think that you have finally revealed the real reason why we can't have a rational discussion with you here:  You are irrational, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, and you are deeply fearful of real discussion.  You feel threatened by the consequences.  There are, of course, plenty of such people in this world, and we sometimes meet them on this board, and they seem proud of it in some cases.  In your case, the fact that you didn't just come right out and say that you don't accept the conclusions of archeology indicates some sense of guilt or embarrassment for that on your part.

 

So all professionals are quacks and phonies.  Such are the wages of cognitive dissonance..

[Calm]

Why did Brigham Young journey his peoples 1,300 miles to escape mob rule in Nauvoo? Surely there must have some place they passed by that was safe?

Was Mormon trying to get his people beyond effective Lamanite range as BY was or was he arranging a place to conveniently meet with them in battle?

 

Seems to me the men had two different purposes in mind.  Why invest all those resources traveling that could have been used to prepare for battle by Mormon.

[Rob Osborn]

Was Mormon trying to get his people beyond effective Lamanite range as BY was or was he arranging a place to conveniently meet with them in battle?

 

Seems to me the men had two different purposes in mind.  Why invest all those resources traveling that could have been used to prepare for battle by Mormon.

If we knew where Mormon and his people were when he wrote his epistle it would really help with understanding. All we are told is that they were being swept off the land and that Mormon and his people were marching before them. In Brigham Youngs case, my point was to show that people, when pressed with their very lives go to extreme measures to offer themselves safety.

[Rob Osborn]

Well, I think that you have finally revealed the real reason why we can't have a rational discussion with you here:  You are irrational, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, and you are deeply fearful of real discussion.  You feel threatened by the consequences.  There are, of course, plenty of such people in this world, and we sometimes meet them on this board, and they seem proud of it in some cases.  In your case, the fact that you didn't just come right out and say that you don't accept the conclusions of archeology indicates some sense of guilt or embarrassment for that on your part.

 

So all professionals are quacks and phonies.  Such are the wages of cognitive dissonance..

Of course we can have a rational discussion. Archaeology is wrong a lot of the time and obviously so with how the Americas were peopled. The Jaredites were the first to people this land after the flood. As such there was also a lack of animal and plant life when they arrived and thus why they were commanded beforehand by the Lord to gather up different kinds of animals including bees to bring to the Americas. Let me ask- which archaeology report has this story? I am guessing there are probably thousands of peer reviewed papers and not one of them mention a group of people from the tower of Babel building vessels to cross the ocean to start peopling America. Next, take written language. Archaeology reports has meso-americans around 400-100 bc inventing a written language. Wrong again, the Jaredites brought a written language with them. Next take "steel". Archaeology reports the ancient americans didnt use steel. Wrong again! The Jaredites and Nephites used steel. I could go on and on but sufficeth to say- archaeology is not what many believe it to be, it has serious problems.

[Rob Osborn]

You have obviously confused the Mesoamerican Cumorah with the New York hill "convenient to the village of Manchester" (JS-H 1:51).   Why doesn't Joseph or the angel call it "Cumorah" right off the bat?  You'll note that the hill was not named for many years, until someone not thinking very deeply decided that they must be the same hill.  Is this a problem?  No, simply because one doesn't depend on such marginal stuff for one's salvation.  Is the subject of interest to archeologists and historians.  Yes.  Why wouldn't it?

I have read somewhere that every prophet of God since Joseph Smith has referred to the hill in New York as the same hill menrioned in the BoM. No leader of the church has ever menrioned there being more than one hill cumorah.

[Freedom]

Of course we can have a rational discussion. Archaeology is wrong a lot of the time and obviously so with how the Americas were peopled. The Jaredites were the first to people this land after the flood. As such there was also a lack of animal and plant life when they arrived and thus why they were commanded beforehand by the Lord to gather up different kinds of animals including bees to bring to the Americas. Let me ask- which archaeology report has this story? I am guessing there are probably thousands of peer reviewed papers and not one of them mention a group of people from the tower of Babel building vessels to cross the ocean to start peopling America. Next, take written language. Archaeology reports has meso-americans around 400-100 bc inventing a written language. Wrong again, the Jaredites brought a written language with them. Next take "steel". Archaeology reports the ancient americans didnt use steel. Wrong again! The Jaredites and Nephites used steel. I could go on and on but sufficeth to say- archaeology is not what many believe it to be, it has serious problems.

Here you go again creating a scenario to justify your belief system. This is called a strawman argument. Where in the Book of Mormon does it state that the continent was devoid of people and animals. You are confusing evidence with no evidence. You are rejecting the the evidence archeology has found based on what they have not found. But lets go back to your argument about the Jaredites. What does it mean to be a great nation, and how can you claim that was greater than any given current nation on the earth.