The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[Sevenbak]

This is a Piasa bird image (dragon) found on a cup in Oklahoma. There are some also found at Cahokia. Experts on the Spiro like Dr. Dennis Peterson do not believe it was influenced by the Mayans, but the similarities are there. The dating of the Spiro people (900 to about 1200 AD) do not date to the time of the Book of Mormon. To my knowledge the Spiro people lasted a little later than those at Cahokia, but I consider them contemporary of each other. The Spiro had a vast trading Network along the Mississippi and Arkansas  Rivers. There even was an obsidian scraper from Mexico found at this site, sadly for you it also dates hundreds (almost a thousand years to be more exact) of years after the time of the Book of Mormon. The Spiro people at their highest population point was about 25,000 (circa 1250 AD). The Burial mounds date between 800 to about 1450 AD., and none date back to the time of the Book of Mormon.

I don't think that's the Piasa bird image.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but that one is from Illinois, and too modern looking to be hopewell.  It's a dragon image anyway, not the 4 snakes.

 

But you are right about the one I posted, it's Mississippian, not Hopewellian, my bad.

 

A better representation of what I'm referring to, the Mesoamerican-Hopewellian connection, would be the jaguar gorget from Missouri.

 

[MormonMason]

Wouldn't arrowheads in a pile be indicative of a nonbattle burial?

Yes.  It is indicative of ritual burial.  I've also looked further into these sites in the book.  For example, it is said of second one mentioned above:

It may be mentioned here, that the character of the lower deposit, and also some of the relics, coincide with some of those found in the mounds of the Mississippi Valley.  The ancient mound-builders often burned their dead.  The upper and principal collection of bones had probably a comparatively late date, as is shown by the silver bracelet, which, it is presumed, although not so expressly stated, was found with this deposit.

 

(Squier, Antiquities of the State of New York [buffalo: Geo. H. Derby and Co., 1851], 48)

So, "the character of the lower deposit, and also some of the relics, coincide with some of those found in the mounds of the MIssissippi Valley," "late date" and "burned their dead."  The lower deposit is the one that would be older.  In other words, not Nephite.  The Nephites did not burn their dead like the Mississippi Valley mound-builders.  Also, the arrow heads were ritually buried, and were not part of a battle.  This was a sacred burial ground and not part of a battle zone.  This site also is over 120 miles south east of the New York hill.  This is zero support for a New York location of Cumorah and of the final battleground, much less anything Nephite.

[Rob Osborn]

These wounds you speak of, pray tell, how do you know they would impede his mobility?

How do you know he was not carried?

If we are adding to the text with our own experiences and allowing the freedom to speculate wildly beyond the text why not say he flew up, either via priesthood magic, a flying machine yor a large trained bird. What about a horse, or riding up on some other kind of animal?

I once climbed a 2700ft pass in the mountains with a broken arm and a serious concussion. I was trying to get back to my car. I was also pushing a mountain bike.

This idea that our experience in hiking has any bearing on what a military commander would have done immediately after a massive battle where he may have been seriously injured is just plain odd.

It should also be noted that high ground is often considered militarily advantageous for defense. It may have been a pre-planned fallback plan to a defensible position.

We have no idea how high the hill was!!!

You are right we dont have any idea how high it was. It wasnt a mountain though. Mormon, who abridged and wrote the BoM certainly knew the diffetence between a hill and a mountain and he called it the "Hill Cumorah".

[Calm]

They all deal with multiple dates, multiple burials, ancient and more modern battles.  The region was occupied by warring people since Mormon and co.  Textually, both Mormon and Moroni say the Lamanites would war among themselves for many generations.

Unfortunately they did indeed say that.

[Rob Osborn]

From my reading of those passages, particularly the wording of verse 3 ("travelled many days"; "passed by the hill Shim"), I place Moron more centrally, east of the place of their first inheritance (on the western shore), and north of and adjoining the land of Desolation, but closer toward the sea west.  This still is a reasonably small region of land but puts enough distance between Omer to leave Omer and that land out of the way during the infighting of the family of Akish and others.  Where Omer was, however, was near the shore of the sea east.  This puts Cumorah near the shore of the sea east.

 

This being the case, however, also is problematic for any who would claim that Cumorah is in Oaxaca.  Now, while we cannot be entirely sure that we can know where Shim was located, we know that Omer passed it by on his way to what would later become Cumorah.  It makes me wonder whether the Oaxaca proposal for Cumorah might not actually be the hill Shim rather than Cumorah.  In any case, the text seems to imply that Ramah/Cumorah was near the shore of the eastern sea but not actually sitting on the shore.  That does not match the New York location.  For that matter, putting it near the West sea doesn't work for the New York location, either.

The distance to the east sea (Atlantic ocean) from the hill Cumorah in New York is about 300 miles. That is not too far to be outside the scope of the scenrio at hand. When Lewis and Clark went on their expedition they came to the great falls of the Missouri and from there they went on over to a place by the ocean in the northwest. If I leave out actual mileage it sounds pretty much the same as Omers journy

[Sevenbak]

Quetzalcoatl wasn't a rattlesnake.

The Mayans had many representations of the feathered serpant.  Some of them were rattlesnakes.  Here's 2 or 3.  Look at the rattles in each pic.

 

[Calm]

You are right we dont have any idea how high it was. It wasnt a mountain though. Mormon, who abridged and wrote the BoM certainly knew the diffetence between a hill and a mountain and he called it the "Hill Cumorah".

He knew the difference between what he called a mountain and a hill, but not what you migh call them.

Why, oh why would we assume that his standard on what was a hill and what isn't is the same for him as you. I know my standard is different than my husband,in part due to me growing up on the peninsula with its rolling hills and in Illinois with its endless flats such that the tallest hill around was the man made toboggan hill out back the school which was two stories high while he grew Utah valley with a little more variety.

But then my family went to Yosemite every summer and backpacked up an down and ate mushy oatmeal...and for me if a mountain isn't as high as one of those it is a wimp, and if it lacks pointy ness too I'd call it a hill no problem.

Edited September 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[Sevenbak]

 

I love this picture... the one that shows the stone box so small, Moroni couldn't possibly have fit all the artifacts in as described.  ;-0

[MormonMason]

That's a little over the top, isn't it?  The prophet doesn't have to say "thus sayeth the Lord" for us to need to listen to his words and be obedient. If I may, Pres. Benson's talk (and again reiterated by Pres. Uchtdorf recently) on 14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet found here, # 6 is a good read on why that just shouldn't be part of the equation.  http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

 

Joseph made it clear on many occasions, and through numerous relationships and official church printings where the last battle took place.

 

BTW, did you know that President Hinckley referred to the upstate New York as the "Land of Cumorah"?  (No, I'm not talking about the Sparks letter)  I'm talking about his book, http://deseretbook.com/Thou-Example-Gordon-B-Hinckley/i/5090861

Not that the recent date matters to me, but I know it does to some.  To me, he's as correct as were his predecessors of the last couple hundred years.

None of this is evidence that they knew where the final battles were located. In any case, it is evidence for some that they may have held that opinion.  Opinion that is not based on revelation or on the Standard Works is opinion, and not a whole lot more.

 

In this case, however, the name occurs within a brief history of modern events from New York to Salt Lake City.  He refers to it as "land of Cumorah" within that historical context.  And since the hill began being called Cumorah after 1834, it was appropriate for him to call the region by that name.  I do not find anything in this book to indicate that the Nephites died out around that hill.  He nowhere states that as his opinion in the book.  It has to be inferred by the individual reader.

 

In fact, I happen to have an electronic copy of this book.  I ran a search for Nephite and came up with zero.  I ran one for Lamanite and came up empty.  I ran one for "final battle" and again came up with nothing.  by the way, were you aware that not too many years after the publishing of that book in 1981 that he saw the value of FARMS, heavy proponents and publishers of a particular Mesoamerican model (the Sorenson Model), as being officially part of BYU? President Hinckley was the one to extend the invitation, if I am not mistaken.

 

The official stance of the Church is that we simply do not know where the Book of Mormon took place.  It has long held that stance, the individual opinions of the various leaders and members of the Church notwithstanding.  The only thing official otherwise on the matter is that the plates of the Book of Mormon came from the hill in New York as Joseph Smith obtained them and translated them.

[Sevenbak]

The incomparable Tom Lovell. He accepted a Mesoamerican setting, however, as Moroni's daddy at an earlier age indicates: This would show that the Nephites died in the south, and Moroni migrated, alone, into the NY area. Lovell was never a Mormon, but painted the best (though few) Mormon theme pictures....

This would show no such thing.  You are making an assumption based on your theory.

 

What is does show, which I agree with, is that Mormon was writing after he got the records at age 24, which while still in Mesoamerica. He went back to the narrow neck after getting the records at age 24.   I'm of the firm belief that Mesoamerica was the homeland, and that N. America was a less polluted but final destination of the fleeing Nephites, which some had migrated there just before Christ came.

 

 

Orson Pratt hits it on the head, IMO.   "The extracts from the Book of Mormon, published in a former Part of this article, show that the people of " NEPHEL" or " NEPHITES" dwelt in the country of the mounds, from fifty years before Christ, till three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ." - Orson Pratt

 

 

TW, I'll see your Tom Lovell painting, and raise you an Arnold Friberg Cumorah battle, with the mighty oak of the Northeast.  ;-)

[Rob Osborn]

None of this is evidence that they knew where the final battles were located. In any case, it is evidence for some that they may have held that opinion.  Opinion that is not based on revelation or on the Standard Works is opinion, and not a whole lot more.

 

In this case, however, the name occurs within a brief history of modern events from New York to Salt Lake City.  He refers to it as "land of Cumorah" within that historical context.  And since the hill began being called Cumorah after 1834, it was appropriate for him to call the region by that name.  I do not find anything in this book to indicate that the Nephites died out around that hill.  He nowhere states that as his opinion in the book.  It has to be inferred by the individual reader.

 

In fact, I happen to have an electronic copy of this book.  I ran a search for Nephite and came up with zero.  I ran one for Lamanite and came up empty.  I ran one for "final battle" and again came up with nothing.  by the way, were you aware that not too many years after the publishing of that book in 1981 that he saw the value of FARMS, heavy proponents and publishers of a particular Mesoamerican model (the Sorenson Model), as being officially part of BYU? President Hinckley was the one to extend the invitation, if I am not mistaken.

 

The official stance of the Church is that we simply do not know where the Book of Mormon took place.  It has long held that stance, the individual opinions of the various leaders and members of the Church notwithstanding.  The only thing official otherwise on the matter is that the plates of the Book of Mormon came from the hill in New York as Joseph Smith obtained them and translated them.

The church officially recognizes only one hill Cumorah and that it is located in New York just north of Manchester.

[MormonMason]

The Mayans had many representations of the feathered serpant.  Some of them were rattlesnakes.  Here's 2 or 3.  Look at the rattles in each pic.

 

As to the first photo, I would like to see a clearer representation.  I just found the context I was looking for for the first photo.  It is neither Maya in origin nor a representation of Quetzalcoatl, and was found at La Venta, an Olmec territory.  See the discussion of the findings on Monument 19 of La Venta, here.  In this case, the representation predates Quetzalcoatl and is believed to have been a prototypical serpent that would later become Quetzalcoatl of the Mexicans and Kukulcan of the Maya.

 

As to the second one, this is a photo of a building in Teotihuacan, and is not Maya.  And, notice to which side of the head and rattlesnake tail is attached? In each case the rattle is attached to the head of Tlaloc, who was pictured with a rattlesnake tail even though Tlaloc was also a crocodile.   That Tlaloc was pictured as a rattlesnake that was also part crocodile, see the brief discussion here regarding Tlaloc at Teotihuacan.

 

For the third picture, I'd like to see additional context and an original source beyond a hand-drawn figure on a crank site.

 

Please try to be sure of your context before making statements regarding these all being the Maya "Quetzalcoatl" as you did.  The Mayan equivalent to Quetzalcoatl, by the way, was Kukulcan.

Edited September 18, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

The church officially recognizes only one hill Cumorah and that it is located in New York just north of Manchester.

The Church officially recognizes that hill as the one from which the Book of Mormon came forth.  Nothing else on this matter is official except to say that we don't know where anything in the Book of Mormon took place other than somewhere in the Americas.

[Rob Osborn]

I did a little looking and found something of intetest dealing with the hill Cumorah in New York. It is one of the highest hills in the entire region. Only one hill to the north is bigger before you get to Lake Ontario. On a clear day from the top one can readily see the skyscrapets of Rochester to the northwest. South of the hill is an area without so much hills, a definate break. The Hill Cumorah also lies within 20 miles of Lake Ontario to the north which in my opinion is part of the waters of Ripliancum. The prominence of the hill above all the other northern drumlin hills coupled with its location north of the small plain area and above the Finger Lakes makes the hill Cumorah a rather unique and strategic location. I can readily see Nephite armies staged in the Finger Lakes in flank position. Strategim was definately a tool for Mormon. Particular to the Finger Lakes region is that the hills and valleys between the lakes makes for a very defensible fighring location. Its no wonder the headquarters of the later 5 nations was also in this very area.

[MormonMason]

I did a little looking and found something of intetest dealing with the hill Cumorah in New York. It is one of the highest hills in the entire region. Only one hill to the north is bigger before you get to Lake Ontario. On a clear day from the top one can readily see the skyscrapets of Rochester to the northwest. South of the hill is an area without so much hills, a definate break. The Hill Cumorah also lies within 20 miles of Lake Ontario to the north which in my opinion is part of the waters of Ripliancum. The prominence of the hill above all the other northern drumlin hills coupled with its location north of the small plain area and above the Finger Lakes makes the hill Cumorah a rather unique and strategic location. I can readily see Nephite armies staged in the Finger Lakes in flank position. Strategim was definately a tool for Mormon. Particular to the Finger Lakes region is that the hills and valleys between the lakes makes for a very defensible fighring location. Its no wonder the headquarters of the later 5 nations was also in this very area.

That entire region is not defensible.  Children can cross the brooks to get to the hill in New York and a large group of people in the hundreds of thousands could not have survived four years of camping "around about" the hill Cumorah, especially in the winter.  And, I would like to see more information concerning that view of Rochester skyscrapers on a clear day.  Call it a CFR if you like.

 

While you are gathering up that information, take a look at the following article written by someone who deliberately went to the area around New York's Cumorah and the Palmyra area looking for artifacts.  He found none.

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=377

[Bikeemikey]

You are right we dont have any idea how high it was. It wasnt a mountain though. Mormon, who abridged and wrote the BoM certainly knew the diffetence between a hill and a mountain and he called it the "Hill Cumorah".

The difference is a matter of local colloquial use of language, not our modern day estimation insisting on some maximum hill height or minimum mountain height.

We know it was referred to in the text as a hill. Not that such a reference was ever stipulated as a height limitation.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert F. Smith, on 04 Sept 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

The only time Amerind tribes moved thousands of miles within a discrete period time was at bayonet point, as for the civilized nations forced to go to Oklahoma, for example, and half of them died en route.  That's why it is known as "the trail of tears."  Normally, Amerind tribes remained within small regions for centuries, and some for thousands of years.  Migrations certainly took place, but there was not constant movement of that sort.

The Mongol hordes who swept out from Central Asia, the Vikings, the early Muslims from Arabia, and others have certainly gone great distances and had a profound effect on humanity, but these are exceptional circumstances rather than the norm.

And the asserted Jaredite and Nephite "migrations" were not normal either, surely. If half the people died off "en route" that would not be counter to the description of Mormon since the Lamanites were "sweeping down" every Nephite they could catch. The four year truce to gather in all the remaining Nephites is many times longer than required to traverse the distance across N. America, at a casual pace no less....

I'd be more than happy to accept your suggestion here, Beast, if there were a scintilla of archeological evidence for it, of which there is none.  Zero.

[cdowis]

duplicate

Edited September 18, 2013 by cdowis

[prismsplay]

And why have we not heard further evidence of this amazing assertion by Scott? It's been quite a few years since his book came out. Shouldn't there be artifacts of a battle turn up long before now?...

 

Concerning the artifacts of a battle, see page 16 of this discussion, #312 and #315. Why a high percentage of the more serious Book of Mormon scholars of the RLDS tradition should believe that Cerro Rabon is the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records shall be found has a long and complex history. In 1917, Louis E. Hills of the RLDS came out with the book A Short Work on Geography of Mexico and Central America from 2234 B.C. to 421 A.D., which included a map showing the Isthmus of Tehuantepec as the narrow neck of land connecting the land northward and the land southward.

 

Another RLDS scholar, who made it her life mission to find Hill Cumorah, was Verneil W. Simmons, the author of Peoples, Places and Prophecies: A Study of the Book of Mormon. In her book she did not mention her personal testimonies involving personages confirming or encouraging her quest. When she finally discovered legends of three holy men seen at Cerro Rabon that she thought might be the three immortal Nephites, with all her other information pointing to such a place, she attempted to scale it herself, but was repulsed by a violent storm, and had to leave without climbing it.

 

One of her sons had a friend named Neil Steede who was a Book of Mormon enthusiast and a student of Mesoamerican archaeology. Neil Steede attempted to scale the mountain, but was attacked by natives in that wilderness area. After being miraculously saved from their attempt to kill him, he continued on his mission until he encountered one of the three immortal Nephites who mentally communicated to him that the time had not yet come for the records to be revealed.

 

After much study of Mesoamerican archaeology in the field, Neil Steede organized the Hill Cumorah Expedition Team, which made several attempts to find a way into where he believes the records are kept, but due to Mexican regulations, and other frustrations, the team has been persuaded to explore other areas having a Book of Mormon history, and have been richly blessed in doing so.

[Rob Osborn]

That entire region is not defensible.  Children can cross the brooks to get to the hill in New York and a large group of people in the hundreds of thousands could not have survived four years of camping "around about" the hill Cumorah, especially in the winter.  And, I would like to see more information concerning that view of Rochester skyscrapers on a clear day.  Call it a CFR if you like.

 

While you are gathering up that information, take a look at the following article written by someone who deliberately went to the area around New York's Cumorah and the Palmyra area looking for artifacts.  He found none.

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=377

http://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=12806

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois

[Calm]

http://www.peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=1280

6

 

So about 12 to 15 miles away from Rochester?  And one can see the skyscrapers?  I wonder how much closer they would have to be in order to see a large mass of men on the ground.

[Rob Osborn]

So about 12 to 15 miles away from Rochester?  And one can see the skyscrapers?  I wonder how much closer they would have to be in order to see a large mass of men on the ground.

Really? You can just look down from the top to see the people. South of the hill is an open atea void of those drumlins. If a battle was fought there one would certainly have no problem seeing the destruction from the hilltop.

[Rob Osborn]

Robert F. Smith, on 04 Sept 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I'd be more than happy to accept your suggestion here, Beast, if there were a scintilla of archeological evidence for it, of which there is none.  Zero.

Im curious here, how exactly does one make a claim of there being no evidence of a migration of people halfway across a continent 1600 years ago? What exactly would one hope to find of evidence of a trek like this? Of course no evidence is going to exist or at least be extremely difficult to see. What would one look for? Footprints?

[Calm]

http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html

[Calm]

Im curious here, how exactly does one make a claim of there being no evidence of a migration of people halfway across a continent 1600 years ago? What exactly would one hope to find of evidence of a trek like this? Of course no evidence is going to exist or at least be extremely difficult to see. What would one look for? Footprints?

They have to stop sometime so I assume remnants of camps.