The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[ERayR]

 

Paparazzi in 400 AD?

[Questing Beast]

The incomparable Tom Lovell. He accepted a Mesoamerican setting, however, as Moroni's daddy at an earlier age indicates: This would show that the Nephites died in the south, and Moroni migrated, alone, into the NY area. Lovell was never a Mormon, but painted the best (though few) Mormon theme pictures....

[USU78]

It looks more Aztecan than Maya.  And, so far as I was aware, Quetzalcoatl wasn't a rattlesnake.

 

Makes sense, though, as Uto-Aztecan speakers covered the Southwest and up into the middle Northwest.

[cursor]

Whoa ... why does Mormon have his foot/sandal atop a rolled out scroll?! (ref post 427) 

[USU78]

Whoa ... why does Mormon have his foot/sandal atop a rolled out scroll?! (ref post 427) 

 

Dang wind.

[cursor]

Thete [there] are a few items of dispute though that change everything. The first is the land Moron. We do know it was the Jaredite capital and that it was near to the land of Desolation. We may assume it was north of desolation. But we cannot ascertain if it was or wasnt by the east sea. Nor can we be sure how close or far the hill Ramah is from Moron- the text is absent on this matter.

 

Consider the sequence of events in the following scripture, Ether 9:1–13:

 

1. And now I, Moroni, proceed with my record. Therefore, behold, it came to pass that because of the secret combinations of Akish and his friends, behold, they did overthrow the kingdom of Omer.

 

2. Nevertheless, the Lord was merciful unto Omer, and also to his sons and to his daughters who did not seek his destruction.

 

3. And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.

 

4. And it came to pass that Jared was anointed king over the people, by the hand of wickedness; and he gave unto Akish his daughter to wife.

 

5. And it came to pass that Akish sought the life of his father-in-law; and he applied unto those whom he had sworn by the boath of the ancients, and they obtained the head of his father-in-law, as he sat upon his throne, giving audience to his people.

 

6. For so great had been the spreading of this wicked and secret society that it had corrupted the hearts of all the people; therefore Jared was murdered upon his throne, and Akish reigned in his stead.

 

7. And it came to pass that Akish began to be jealous of his son, therefore he shut him up in prison, and kept him upon little or no food until he had suffered death.

 

8. And now the brother of him that suffered death, (and his name was Nimrah) was angry with his father because of that which his father had done unto his brother.

 

9. And it came to pass that Nimrah gathered together a small number of men, and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer.

 

10. And it came to pass that Akish begat other sons, and they won the hearts of the people, notwithstanding they had sworn unto him to do all manner of iniquity according to that which he desired.

 

11. Now the people of Akish were desirous for gain, even as Akish was desirous for power; wherefore, the sons of Akish did offer them money, by which means they drew away the more part of the people after them.

 

12. And there began to be a war between the sons of Akish and Akish, which lasted for the space of many years, yea, unto the destruction of nearly all the people of the kingdom, yea, even all, save it were thirty souls, and they who fled with the house of Omer.

 

13. Wherefore, Omer was restored again to the land of his inheritance.

Omer 

 

Let's review:

1. Omer flees from Moron, to elude Akish's aggression.
2. He flees to a place "which was called Ablom, by the seashore."
3. "Jared was anointed king over the people."
4. "Jared was murdered upon his throne, and Akish reigned in his stead."
5. "Nimrah gathered together a small number of men [from the land of Moron], and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer."

   [ Wait ... how reasonably far can this be from Moron? ]

6. "And there began to be a war between the sons of Akish and Akish, which lasted for the space of many years, yea, unto the destruction of nearly all the people of the kingdom, yea, even all, save it were thirty souls."
7. "Wherefore, Omer was restored again to the land of his inheritance."

   [ How far/close would Omer have to have been to know that it was safe to return? ]

Moron (the Jaredite capital ) is right next door to the [east] seashore.

Clearly the codex is referring to a relatively small geographical scope. And, the number of folks involved was small.

Edited September 18, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

Dang wind.

 

Dang sandal ...

[Bikeemikey]

I have done a fair amount of hiking in my day. I know what its like to climb in elevation. Cerro el Vigia rises some 1500 feet from its surrounding elevation. That is no easy hike for a wounded individual. He surely wasnt carried up it.

These wounds you speak of, pray tell, how do you know they would impede his mobility?

How do you know he was not carried?

If we are adding to the text with our own experiences and allowing the freedom to speculate wildly beyond the text why not say he flew up, either via priesthood magic, a flying machine or a large trained bird. What about a horse, or riding up on some other kind of animal?

I once climbed a 2700ft pass in the mountains with a broken arm and a serious concussion. I was trying to get back to my car. I was also pushing a mountain bike.

This idea that our experience in hiking has any bearing on what a military commander would have done immediately after a massive battle where he may have been seriously injured is just plain odd.

It should also be noted that high ground is often considered militarily advantageous for defense. It may have been a pre-planned fallback plan to a defensible position.

We have no idea how high the hill was!!!

Edited September 17, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[MormonMason]

Nice picture but that is Moroni, and we know he made it all the way up to New York after wandering around for over a decade.

[MormonMason]

The incomparable Tom Lovell. He accepted a Mesoamerican setting, however, as Moroni's daddy at an earlier age indicates: This would show that the Nephites died in the south, and Moroni migrated, alone, into the NY area. Lovell was never a Mormon, but painted the best (though few) Mormon theme pictures....

I have always loved that picture, even before I came to reject the New York hypothesis.  I also noticed the very Mesoamerican items on the floor on the right, as well as the Mesoamerican arch above Mormon's head.

[MormonMason]

Makes sense, though, as Uto-Aztecan speakers covered the Southwest and up into the middle Northwest.

That is true.

[MormonMason]

...

 

3. And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.

...

 

Moron (the Jaredite capital ) is right next door to the [east] seashore.

Clearly the codex is referring to a relatively small geographical scope. And, the number of folks involved was small.

 

From my reading of those passages, particularly the wording of verse 3 ("travelled many days"; "passed by the hill Shim"), I place Moron more centrally, east of the place of their first inheritance (on the western shore), and north of and adjoining the land of Desolation, but closer toward the sea west.  This still is a reasonably small region of land but puts enough distance between Omer to leave Omer and that land out of the way during the infighting of the family of Akish and others.  Where Omer was, however, was near the shore of the sea east.  This puts Cumorah near the shore of the sea east.

 

This being the case, however, also is problematic for any who would claim that Cumorah is in Oaxaca.  Now, while we cannot be entirely sure that we can know where Shim was located, we know that Omer passed it by on his way to what would later become Cumorah.  It makes me wonder whether the Oaxaca proposal for Cumorah might not actually be the hill Shim rather than Cumorah.  In any case, the text seems to imply that Ramah/Cumorah was near the shore of the eastern sea but not actually sitting on the shore.  That does not match the New York location.  For that matter, putting it near the West sea doesn't work for the New York location, either.

[prismsplay]

the case, however, also is problematic for any who would claim that Cumorah is in Oaxaca.

 

The actual Hill Cumorah should have a sealed cave containing the sacred records. Since the records are no doubt hidden until the time for their revealment, until that happens, any location proposed for Hill Cumorah should have evidence in its vicinity of a battle having been fought at the time stated in the Book of Mormon. See my posts at #312 and #315. In addition to that evidence is this information from Voices from the Dust by Glenn A. Scott:

 

"They gathered around Hill Cumorah (now Cerro Rabon), which rises abruptly above the slopes upon which Mormon's army was camped. It is at the mouth of a strategic valley whose steep hills guard the best route leading north into the interior of central Mexico, with its population centers of Cholula, Xochicalco and Teotihucan. The San Juan River flows through this valley emptying into the Papaloapan River basin, a low swampy land of many river branches and small lakes. This tended to funnel an approaching army directly toward the valley mouth. Mormon hoped this difficult terrain would favor them in their battle with the Lamanites. Neil Steede has made several explorations of this valley and has found remains of a series of defensive walls across the branch to the north. In the canyon walls he found hastily built tombs of literally thousands of bodies. The branch to the south is doubtless the flight route referred to by Moroni (Mormon 8:2)."

 

There is evidence that a battle was fought near Cerro Rabon. Since battles have been fought in many places, the records mentioned in the Book of Mormon must be found at Cerro Rabon before we can safely say that it was Hill Cumorah.

[Questing Beast]

And why have we not heard further evidence of this amazing assertion by Scott? It's been quite a few years since his book came out. Shouldn't there be artifacts of a battle turn up long before now?...

[MormonMason]

The actual Hill Cumorah should have a sealed cave containing the sacred records. Since the records are no doubt hidden until the time for their revealment, until that happens, any location proposed for Hill Cumorah should have evidence in its vicinity of a battle having been fought at the time stated in the Book of Mormon. See my posts at #312 and #315. In addition to that evidence is this information from Voices from the Dust by Glenn A. Scott:

 

"They gathered around Hill Cumorah (now Cerro Rabon), which rises abruptly above the slopes upon which Mormon's army was camped. It is at the mouth of a strategic valley whose steep hills guard the best route leading north into the interior of central Mexico, with its population centers of Cholula, Xochicalco and Teotihucan. The San Juan River flows through this valley emptying into the Papaloapan River basin, a low swampy land of many river branches and small lakes. This tended to funnel an approaching army directly toward the valley mouth. Mormon hoped this difficult terrain would favor them in their battle with the Lamanites. Neil Steede has made several explorations of this valley and has found remains of a series of defensive walls across the branch to the north. In the canyon walls he found hastily built tombs of literally thousands of bodies. The branch to the south is doubtless the flight route referred to by Moroni (Mormon 8:2)."

 

There is evidence that a battle was fought near Cerro Rabon. Since battles have been fought in many places, the records mentioned in the Book of Mormon must be found at Cerro Rabon before we can safely say that it was Hill Cumorah.

The Book of Mormon does not have Mormon using defensive walls around or near Cumorah, much less using them at all once they lost their fortified cities.  Why look for them in a candidate for the hill and surrounding region?  Mormon did not bury his dead and there would have been far more than a mere thousands of bodies in tombs in the canyon around Cumorah.  His dead were left moldering on the ground where they fell, at least according to the Book of Mormon, and not long afterward, Mormon and 23 of the 24 others who were with him also died in battle.

 

I have no doubt that a battle was fought around Cerro Rabon.  Stuff like that happened a lot in Mesoamerica.  But, its location is what I find somewhat off.  It is, however, in a good place to be a consideration for hill Shim, in my opinion, which also had sacred records hidden therein before Mormon took them to Cumorah.  The description of how Omer traveled to Cumorah and then to the shore, after passing Shim and after many days of travel.  The land of first inheritance was on and around the western seashore.  The land of Moron, the city of kings, was located east of that, and after a journey of many days Shim is passed on the way to Cumorah, and from there eastward to the sea that is right there next to Cumorah.  That places Cumorah nearer to the eastern sea and would eliminate Cerro Rabon from the equation.

[MormonMason]

And why have we not heard further evidence of this amazing assertion by Scott? It's been quite a few years since his book came out. Shouldn't there be artifacts of a battle turn up long before now?...

Allegedly, weapons were found and these weapons tested positive for the presence of blood.  I know no more than that.  I do not have his book and even if I did it would not be with me at the moment.  Prismsplay, I assume, does own the book and probably could tell you more.

[Calm]

Lamaniteswould have buried their dead, wouldn't have they? Perhaps only some of them as likely too many of them as well, would have had to burn them or abandon the area for awhile.

[Calm]

http://209.157.64.201/focus/religion/2522214/replies?c=951

http://www.caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/V59/V59N1-Hapka.pdf

Edited September 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

Lamaniteswould have buried their dead, wouldn't have they? Perhaps only some of them as likely too many of them as well, would have had to burn them or abandon the area for awhile.

Not from what I have seen in reading the Book of Mormon.  When they were fighting, there wasn't much in the way of burying with them.  The only time I am aware of them burying their dead after battle was when they were being forced to bury their dead by the Nephite soldiers.  See Alma 53:1-3.  All the other times it seems that it was the Nephites who buried the Lamanite dead.  There were no Nephites left after the final battles except Moroni.  I highly doubt he stuck around to bury Lamanite and other dead with his life in danger the way that it was even being in that area.

[Sevenbak]

 

Thought I would do some research on Squires book.

On page 97 Squire mentions small heaps each comprising of three or four skeletons. Each of these had the appearance of elaborate funeral service such as saving the bones of their dead and in fixed intervals set aside for a large family funeral (page 98).

 

The only arrows found in these mounds were pristine never before used arrows pointing in one direction, they were for ritualistic use in the burial .This coincides with historic records that validate these burials; Queen Cofitachequi has reported (to Hernando de Soto) that the mounds served as burial places for their nobility. To continue the mounds Squire speaks of on page 98 are those of Fort Ancient which existed from approximately 1000 AD to the mid 17th century.

 

To summarize the sources that Rob Osborn is using has in no way a connection to mass warfare in or around the hill Cumorah and they do not date to 385 AD.

 

I know you're passionate about this, and your work and education in archeology and anthropology give you a additional leg up on these topics...  HOWEVER I don't think your answer to this is fair at all to Squier's work and shows me you are cherry picking, I'll assume it was an oversight.  Of course Squire found some modern burials, with well preserved intact bones and ornamental weapons. He also found some European interaction.  BUT, and this is the whole point... He also found much more, and much older.  I think credit must be given to his differentiating dates, not lumping it all as modern.  Perhaps you need to read the book again.   Here's just a couple of what you missed:

 

"The " bone-pits... have unquestionably a corresponding origin. Several of these have

been described in a previous chapter. They are of various sizes, but usually con-

tain a large number of skeletons. In a few instances the bones appear to have

been arranged with some degree of regularity.

 

One of these pits discovered some years ago, in the town of Cambria, Niagara

county, was estimated to contain the bones of several thousand individuals.

Another which I visited in the town of Clarence, Erie county, contained not less

than four hundred skeletons."  (Page 68)

 

 

Or this one:

 

 

"In Greene township, about two miles below the village, was formerly a mound of

some interest. It was situated about thirty rods back from the bank of the Che-

nango River, and was originally about six feet in height and forty in diameter.

" Until within a few years a large pine stump stood on its top, and a variety of

trees covered it when first discovered. One of these showed two hundred conse-

cutive growths. An examination of the mound was made in 1829 by excavation.

Great numbers of human bones were found ; and beneath them, at a greater depth,

others were found which had evidently been burned. No conjecture could be

formed of the number of bodies deposited here. The skeletons were found lying

without order, and so much decayed as to crumble on exposure. At one point in

the mound a large number, perhaps two hundred, arrow-heads were discovered,

collected in a heap. They were of the usual form, and of yellow or black flint.

Another pile, of sixty or more, was found in another place, in the same mound; " (page 34)

 

 

 

I wonder, (and really I have no idea,) so I'm asking you as you've studied some of this stuff... how long does it take for bones to deteriorate enough that they crumble to the dust upon exposure to air?

 

 

There's a lot more, and in my opinion, Squier isn't even the best source for these documented findings. But for this references, since you're all talking about Squier, there ya go...

[Calm]

See Rob, it is possible to give specific cites with page numbers.

[Calm]

Another pile, of sixty or more, was found in another place, in the same mound; " (page 34)...

Wouldn't arrowheads in a pile be indicative of a nonbattle burial?

[Sevenbak]

Have you got some "thus saith the Lord" kind of material from Joseph Smith positively identifying these New York lands as the actual places of the final battles? If you do, please do share it.

 

That's a little over the top, isn't it?  The prophet doesn't have to say "thus sayeth the Lord" for us to need to listen to his words and be obedient. If I may, Pres. Benson's talk (and again reiterated by Pres. Uchtdorf recently) on 14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet found here, # 6 is a good read on why that just shouldn't be part of the equation.  http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

 

Joseph made it clear on many occasions, and through numerous relationships and official church printings where the last battle took place.

 

BTW, did you know that President Hinckley referred to the upstate New York as the "Land of Cumorah"?  (No, I'm not talking about the Sparks letter)  I'm talking about his book, http://deseretbook.com/Thou-Example-Gordon-B-Hinckley/i/5090861

Not that the recent date matters to me, but I know it does to some.  To me, he's as correct as were his predecessors of the last couple hundred years.

[Sevenbak]

And which of these books deals with sites that are dated to before 500 AD?

 

You need as well as location and mass discoveries correct time placement.

They all deal with multiple dates, multiple burials, ancient and more modern battles.  The region was occupied by warring people since Mormon and co.  Textually, both Mormon and Moroni say the Lamanites would war among themselves for many generations.

[Rob Osborn]

Consider the sequence of events in the following scripture, Ether 9:1–13:

 

1. And now I, Moroni, proceed with my record. Therefore, behold, it came to pass that because of the secret combinations of Akish and his friends, behold, they did overthrow the kingdom of Omer.

 

2. Nevertheless, the Lord was merciful unto Omer, and also to his sons and to his daughters who did not seek his destruction.

 

3. And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.

 

4. And it came to pass that Jared was anointed king over the people, by the hand of wickedness; and he gave unto Akish his daughter to wife.

 

5. And it came to pass that Akish sought the life of his father-in-law; and he applied unto those whom he had sworn by the boath of the ancients, and they obtained the head of his father-in-law, as he sat upon his throne, giving audience to his people.

 

6. For so great had been the spreading of this wicked and secret society that it had corrupted the hearts of all the people; therefore Jared was murdered upon his throne, and Akish reigned in his stead.

 

7. And it came to pass that Akish began to be jealous of his son, therefore he shut him up in prison, and kept him upon little or no food until he had suffered death.

 

8. And now the brother of him that suffered death, (and his name was Nimrah) was angry with his father because of that which his father had done unto his brother.

 

9. And it came to pass that Nimrah gathered together a small number of men, and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer.

 

10. And it came to pass that Akish begat other sons, and they won the hearts of the people, notwithstanding they had sworn unto him to do all manner of iniquity according to that which he desired.

 

11. Now the people of Akish were desirous for gain, even as Akish was desirous for power; wherefore, the sons of Akish did offer them money, by which means they drew away the more part of the people after them.

 

12. And there began to be a war between the sons of Akish and Akish, which lasted for the space of many years, yea, unto the destruction of nearly all the people of the kingdom, yea, even all, save it were thirty souls, and they who fled with the house of Omer.

 

13. Wherefore, Omer was restored again to the land of his inheritance.

Omer 

 

Let's review:

• Omer flees from Moron, to elude Akish's aggression.
• He flees to a place "which was called Ablom, by the seashore."
• "Jared was anointed king over the people."
• "Jared was murdered upon his throne, and Akish reigned in his stead."
• "Nimrah gathered together a small number of men [from the land of Moron], and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer
• Wait ... how reasonably far can this be from Moron?
• "And it came to pass that Nimrah gathered together a small number of men, and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer."

  (how far could he possibly have gone, and still be credible?)

• "And there began to be a war between the sons of Akish and Akish, which lasted for the space of many years, yea, unto the destruction of nearly all the people of the kingdom, yea, even all, save it were thirty souls."
• "Wherefore, Omer was restored again to the land of his inheritance."

Moron (the Jaredite capital ) is right next door to the [east] seashore.

Clearly the codex is referring to a relatively small geographical scope. And, the number of folks involved was small.

I dont see how you can read that out of th text. Omer departs out of the land and it says he traveled many days just to get to the hill of Shim. His journey then took him and his family from tjere to Cumorah and then from there over to the sea shore. The text never says how far that distance was. All we can secure is that it was many days travel from Moron to the hill Shim. So, the question becomes- how far did they travel in a day and how many is "many days"? Is it 10 days or 50 days? Maybe more, maybe less? Its too hard to discern. Its probably more than a few day (3-4). In context though, Omer, king if the Jaredite nation, leaves to go to another land for safety. After his departure the kingdom undergoes a massive destruction brought on by secret combinations. Two separate kingdoms form and over the space of many years they pretty much anhilate each other. This kingdom was no small kingdom. The Lord promised the brother of Jared that they would become the greatest civilization on the earth. This means their kingdom would surpass all those mighty nations like China, Rome, etc. You have to look at the Jaredites in this light. They built more buildings, pyramids, etc than other nations. They warred stronger than other nations, etc. The scope of their empire was truly magnificant. We must view their empire in this light. When we properly do so it brings the truth of the text to light.

Omer didnt just hop over the little mountain range to find safety from the kingdom that was self destructing. My opinion is that Omer truly traveked many many days to escape from the empires grasp. My opinion is that he had to travel literally hundreds and hundreds of miles. We must remember that this Jaredite nation which existed for upwards of 2 thousand years and was the greatest nation to ever walk the earth was a documented historical reality. They kept records of their dealings. Becauae the record was abridged, only the most notable dealings wete recorded for us to read about. Think of it this way, if you were to right an abridged version of American history of the past 400 years and were only able to use 2 pages to do so what notable things would you put down? And, you cant put down any actual measurements. My record would contain the obvious founding of the thirteen colonies, interactions with the natives, the Revolutionary war, the Civil war, slavery and its abolishment, the two great world wars, etc. My record would probably also mention things such as the monetary system, the settlement of peoples into all parts of the land, diseasrs and plagues, etc. When one looks at it this way it really isnt that much different than what the ancients who used the same land would have wrote about. Our own historical wars fought on this land didnt take place in small areas. Generals of armies had armies spread out over thousands of miles at times, etc. When you delete actual distances from text and keep it highly abridged you autonatically get lulled into seeing their culture as also small and abridged in confined areas.

It always intrigues me to watch my fellow brothers be so enamored by the Mayan culture as being Nephite while relegating the smal Olmec "culture" as being the Jaredites. In doing so we minimize the mighty Jaredites and instead make the Nephites the greater nation. This all despite the fact that Mayan language as recorded on a myriad of stella resembles pretty much nothing even remotely like reformed Egyptian. We also have no record of Nephites writing inscriptions on large stones. Ironically, Coriantumr, the last surving Jaredite is recorded as inscribing his short history on a large stella! This tells me right away that the Maya along with the Olmec were part of that mighty Jaredite nation. Moron very well could have been the ruins we now call Teotihuacan.