Calm Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 Of course we can have a rational discussion. Archaeology is wrong a lot of the time and obviously so with how the Americas were peopled....... I could go on and on but sufficeth to say- archaeology is not what many believe it to be, it has serious problems.Why do you bother appealing to archaeology at all when you dismiss it if it ever disagrees with your personal interpretation?
cursor Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 I have read somewhere that every prophet of God since Joseph Smith has referred to the hill in New York as the same hill menrioned in the BoM. No leader of the church has ever menrioned there being more than one hill cumorah. And what might that reliable source be?
Rob Osborn Posted September 20, 2013 Author Posted September 20, 2013 Here you go again creating a scenario to justify your belief system. This is called a strawman argument. Where in the Book of Mormon does it state that the continent was devoid of people and animals. You are confusing evidence with no evidence. You are rejecting the the evidence archeology has found based on what they have not found. But lets go back to your argument about the Jaredites. What does it mean to be a great nation, and how can you claim that was greater than any given current nation on the earth.Moroni abridged their record. Here is what he wrote about their nation at the height of its run-28 And never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord. And they were in a land that was choice above all lands, for the Lord had spoken it.(Ether 10:28)This fulfills prophecy given to the brother of Jared-43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me. (Ether 1:43)
Rob Osborn Posted September 20, 2013 Author Posted September 20, 2013 Why do you bother appealing to archaeology at all when you dismiss it if it ever disagrees with your personal interpretation?Do you watch the weather report? And yet they are wrong too at times. My personal beliefs happen to come from the scriptures. Two great nations arose in ancient times in the Americas. We should find evidence of their doings. I personally see no problem the many evidences. It just happens that my interpretation is not in alignment with the scientists. And this is exactly why I dont appeal to them for confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true. Its not my fault that archaeology has holes in their processes.
ERayR Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) Moroni abridged their record. Here is what he wrote about their nation at the height of its run-28 ... And they were in a land that was choice above all lands, for the Lord had spoken it.(Ether 10:28)This fulfills prophecy given to the brother of Jared- This rules out a New York state site. Have you ever spent a winter up there? Edited September 20, 2013 by ERayR 2
Rob Osborn Posted September 20, 2013 Author Posted September 20, 2013 And what might that reliable source be?Not sure, I do remember reading something on it though. I can look into it and try to find the source.
Rob Osborn Posted September 20, 2013 Author Posted September 20, 2013 This rules out a New York state site. Have you ever spent a winter up there? I live in Idaho, winters here are brutal. Still wouldnt choose any other place to live though!
cursor Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 Trusting archaeologists is like trusting the weathermanThats the number one reason I dont rely on archaeologists as to who peopled the Americeas- they are just plain wrong! Squier wrote concerning the entrencments around the mounds ...Squier contradicts the popular notion ...Squier writes ...Squier also writes ... Then why exactly do you continually quote E. G. Squier as a reliable source? 2
ERayR Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 I live in Idaho, winters here are brutal. Still wouldnt choose any other place to live though! I also live in Idaho and have lived several other places. In comparison to some the winters in Idaho are quite moderate. That is one of the reasons I love it here.
Freedom Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 Moroni abridged their record. Here is what he wrote about their nation at the height of its run-28 And never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord. And they were in a land that was choice above all lands, for the Lord had spoken it.(Ether 10:28)This fulfills prophecy given to the brother of Jared-43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me. (Ether 1:43)So, according to your reference, they were great because they prospered and where blessed. They could be a nation of 2 people living in Spuzzum British Columbia to satisfy this requirement.
Freedom Posted September 20, 2013 Posted September 20, 2013 Do you watch the weather report? And yet they are wrong too at times. My personal beliefs happen to come from the scriptures. Two great nations arose in ancient times in the Americas. We should find evidence of their doings. I personally see no problem the many evidences. It just happens that my interpretation is not in alignment with the scientists. And this is exactly why I dont appeal to them for confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true. Its not my fault that archaeology has holes in their processes. Um. Never mind.
Rob Osborn Posted September 21, 2013 Author Posted September 21, 2013 Then why exactly do you continually quote E. G. Squier as a reliable source?I also go to certain weather sites and consider them a reliable source. I wholly wish tjat archaeologists and anthropologists wouldnt try to imagine up how they think society was in ancient times. When I read through the many fascinating stories of the BoM it is so interesting just how intelligent the human race is. Its then when I read about how archaeologists have painted this whole slow progression of even language in society. You read about all those "hunter gatherers" and it is so completely backwards of historical records of how societies really were. The actual history of the Americas is a very intruiging and fascinating tale as found in only one source-The Book Of Mormon. No one else is even remotely close. When I read about archaeology I decipher the evidence myself and judge for myself what is or can be true and what is merely conjecture. Too bad that there is a lot of bad conjecture on their parts.
Rob Osborn Posted September 21, 2013 Author Posted September 21, 2013 So, according to your reference, they were great because they prospered and where blessed. They could be a nation of 2 people living in Spuzzum British Columbia to satisfy this requirement.If you read the book of Ether you will note the many references tha Moroni used in describing the greatness of their nation. Moroni specified they had a great population, built many mighty cities, had all manner of tools, clothes, gold,silver, steel,etc. They were blessed with living very long lives ( one is mentioned living to 142), having many children, periods of exceeding peace and greatness. The whole face of the north country was peopled in many mighty cities with many spacious buildings. Just based on the dead warrior count in the Jaredite last great wars we can easily justify this nation as being far superior to the Nephites and perhaps all other nations of the world. This wasnt some small Olmec type of nation even though the Olmec can be included in their society. Just based on the text I look for certain traits or evidences that they would have left behind. I would look for a large society who showed evidence of compkete idolization of kings, captivity of kings, conquering of kings. I also would look for ruins of buildings of every kind. I would look for a society that wrote their tales on large stones. I would look for signs of the use of animals such as elephants. I would look for giant skeletons, large armor. I would look for a written language unlike reformed Egyptian. The great meso-American societies such as the Mayans, Zapotec, olmec all meet those criterias.
Questing Beast Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 If all of N. America was spread with "mighty cities", where is the first scintilla of surviving evidence? Where are these cities of "cement"?, since the trees were lacking (Helaman 3).... 1
Anijen Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) I also go to certain weather sites and consider them a reliable source. I wholly wish tjat archaeologists and anthropologists wouldnt try to imagine up how they think society was in ancient times. When I read through the many fascinating stories of the BoM it is so interesting just how intelligent the human race is. Its then when I read about how archaeologists have painted this whole slow progression of even language in society. You read about all those "hunter gatherers" and it is so completely backwards of historical records of how societies really were. The actual history of the Americas is a very intruiging and fascinating tale as found in only one source-The Book Of Mormon. No one else is even remotely close. When I read about archaeology I decipher the evidence myself and judge for myself what is or can be true and what is merely conjecture. Too bad that there is a lot of bad conjecture on their parts.This is why nobody takes you seriously. Doctrine and Covenants 88:78 should help you to realize you can learn theory and doctrine and that both are good. And just an FYI If it pre-Adamites, or a 2nd hill is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, it does not mean they didn't happen. Edited September 21, 2013 by Anijen
Calm Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 I wholly wish tjat archaeologists and anthropologists wouldnt try to imagine up how they think society was in ancient times. Much better to just leave that in the hands of untrained amateurs. 2
Anijen Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 Much better to just leave that in the hands of untrained amateurs. 1
cdowis Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) have read somewhere that every prophet of God since Joseph Smith has referred to the hill in New York as the same hill menrioned in the BoM. No leader of the church has ever menrioned there being more than one hill cumorah Yes, Howard Hunter was president just a year...... and I remember that on his deathbed, he struggled for breath and finally blurted out "Before I die, it's important for the saints to know there was only ONE hill Cumorah. It's located in New York." Let me try to find that source. Edited September 21, 2013 by cdowis
ERayR Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 The geography of the Book of Mormon is really such an important doctrinal point that I don't know how one can progress until it is settled. 1
Rob Osborn Posted September 21, 2013 Author Posted September 21, 2013 If all of N. America was spread with "mighty cities", where is the first scintilla of surviving evidence? Where are these cities of "cement"?, since the trees were lacking (Helaman 3)....The Nephites used cement and timbers for their houses, etc. My opinion is that this was the pueblo indians who used different adobe compounds- a type of primitive cement.
ERayR Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 The Nephites used cement and timbers for their houses, etc. My opinion is that this was the pueblo indians who used different adobe compounds- a type of primitive cement. Are you serious? 1
ERayR Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) Do you really need to ask? Not really. I just didn't know how else to express my incredulity. However, after giving it some thought and shedding my 20th century understanding of the word cement I guess I can understand that part. I just don't agree with it. Edited September 21, 2013 by ERayR
Tacenda Posted September 21, 2013 Posted September 21, 2013 Yes, Howard Hunter was president just a year...... and I remember that on his deathbed, he struggled for breath and finally blurted out "Before I die, it's important for the saints to know there was only ONE hill Cumorah. It's located in New York." Let me try to find that source.Well what took you so long, now we have our answer!
cursor Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Trusting archaeologists is like trusting the weathermanThats the number one reason I dont rely on archaeologists as to who peopled the Americeas- they are just plain wrong!The actual history of the Americas is a very intruiging and fascinating tale as found in only one source-The Book Of Mormon. No one else is even remotely close. When I read about archaeology I decipher the evidence myself and judge for myself what is or can be true and what is merely conjecture. Too bad that there is a lot of bad conjecture on their parts. Um ... bad conjecture on whose part? Can you possibly mean by archaeologists and anthropologist trained in their field? The alternative is to listen to the drivel that comes from nincompoops like you. What, pray tell, might possibly make YOUR word any way superior to the words of professionals ... and in particular, those professionals who have credible evidence that the Book of Mormon was authored/abridged by an ancient Mesoamericans? I guess the reason why you don't side with the substantially supported opinions of my father, is that he has degrees in both anthropology AND meteorology. Double killer, eh dude[less].. Oh no! He's a freakin' weatherman TOO! Edited September 22, 2013 by cursor
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