The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[Rob Osborn]

On a previously locked topic thesometimesaint posted this- " I think Sorenson has a better claim for the isthmus of Tehuantepec in Mesoamerica" http://www.fairlds.o..._Take_Place.pdf

I tend to disagree. The main interest of geography in the BoM is this narrow neck that separated the land northward from the land southward. In Sorensons limited geography model he posits that this narrow neck is the isthmus of Teuhuantepec in Mexico. I have wondered why this theory is held up so respectively when the criteria the BoM presents does not fit this area at all. The biggest blow is that the land soutjward was completely surrounded by water except for the narrow neck of land on the north that connected it to the land northward. If the isthmus of Teuhuantepec were this narrow neck as proposed then it cannot be completely surrounded by water. The second big blow is that the BoM describes this narrow land mass as a neck which led into the land northward. From the point of view the Nephites had on the ground the isthmus of Teuhuantepec is anything but a narrow neck. In fact, if we use Sorensons limited geographic model, most of the land southward is of the same distance across as the narrow neck itself.

The facts of the BoM geography concerning the narrow neck do not fit the isthmus of Teuhuantepec theory.

[Brant Gardner]

Some of the difficulties in dealing with geography and the Book of Mormon is that we all know what the text says--except that we quote it imprecisely. It is probably worth setting down some textual references for the discussion.

 

 

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward. (Alma 63:5)

 

 

 

 

20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land. (Ether 10:20)

 

 

 

There are only two verses that specifically mentioned "narrow neck." Neither gives any indication of dimension. The only geographic reference is that it is a "narrow neck" because it is "where the sea divides the land." That, at least, is a reasonable inference from the idea that the "great city" is both by the narrow neck and by the "place where the sea divides the land." The verse makes those appear to be the same.

 

32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward. (Alma 22:32)

 

First, contrary to Rob's reading, this doesn't say that the land southward is surrounded by water. It says "nearly surrounded by water." Of course we can discuss what that means, but the text does not actually say that it is surrounded. In fact, the presence of "nearly" in the description suggests that it was not. That would disqualify any physical geography requiring the land southward to be completely surrounded.

 

This verse also introduces distance. It is a "distance of a day and a half's journey for a Nephite." Of course, just the description is a bit puzzling. It is not known how a day and half's journey for a Nephite might be different from a day and a half's journey for a Lamanite.

 

Second, the problem is the distance measure: "on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea." The misquoted part of this distance is "from the east to the west sea." It is usually quoted as "from the east sea to the west sea." The meaning of the two could be very different. It is unknown from what point east the line went to the west sea. Obviously, where that eastern point was makes a difference, particularly if it was not near the east sea.

 

The importance of understanding both what the line might have meant and where the eastern boundary might have been becomes critical when we look at the only other verse to give us any distance information:

 

7 And there they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a day’s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country. (Helaman 4:7)

 

 

 

This "line" is similarly "from the west sea, even unto the east," so the two references are consistent in the ambivalent location of the eastern point. What makes everything more interesting is that now the Nephite only has to journey a day. Of course, it is a different distance being traversed, as this time it is the defended line. Thus, we have a day's journey in one case and a day and a half in the other -- neither one specifically defining the distance from sea to sea.

 

We can now return to discussing the meaning of the data, but at least we have the correct references as a beginning point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

You are reading things into the text. The land southward would have been completely surrounded if it weren't for the small narrow neck of land connecting the two land masses.

[cursor]

You're assigning unnecessary limitations, Rob.

 

In any event, how might it be that Mormon could have had any idea that the southern end [of the southern] continent was surrounded by water That's nearly 5,000 miles away from any Central American narrow neck? 

Edited September 1, 2013 by cursor

[Questing Beast]

Going off memory here: doesn't John Sorensen point out that within the Isthmus of Tehuantepec there is a "narrow pass going north and south that at various seasons of the year is effectively surrounded by "seas" due to seasonal flooding? The higher ground "pass" running through the impassable wet ground is very narrow, easily fitting into the day or day and a half's journey from the west to the east seas....

[Rob Osborn]

You're assigning unnecessary limitations, Rob.

 

In any event, how might it be that Mormon could have had any idea that the southern end [of the southern] continent was surrounded by water That's nearly 5,000 miles away from any Central American narrow neck?

You're assigning unnecessary limitations, Rob.

 

In any event, how might it be that Mormon could have had any idea that the southern end [of the southern] continent was surrounded by water That's nearly 5,000 miles away from any Central American narrow neck?

At this point in society they were an entire nation which had spread to all parts of the land. We might also ask- how was it possible that Lehi led his children into the desert, got lost, then built a sea worrhy ship to cross the ocean thousands of miles away? We tend to limit human ambition especially in the past. When the Spanish explorers first came to South America they found a flourishing society- a nation expanding thousands of miles. Surely their leaders knew the lands?

[cursor]

Going off memory here: doesn't John Sorensen point out that within the Isthmus of Tehuantepec there is a "narrow pass going north and south that at various seasons of the year is effectively surrounded by "seas" due to seasonal flooding? The higher ground "pass" running through the impassable wet ground is very narrow, easily fitting into the day or day and a half's journey from the west to the east seas....

 

In the Book of Mormon there is a clear distinction between "the narrow neck of land" that separated to large land masses, and two "narrow passage"s (which provide limited geographic access). Consider:

Sorenson: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=101&chapid=1137

Nibley: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=60&chapid=614

[cursor]

At this point in society they were an entire nation which had spread to all parts of the land. We might also ask- how was it possible that Lehi led his children into the desert, got lost, then built a sea worrhy ship to cross the ocean thousands of miles away? We tend to limit human ambition especially in the past. When the Spanish explorers first came to South America they found a flourishing society- a nation expanding thousands of miles. Surely their leaders knew the lands?

 

So, during the final retreat of the Nephites from Lamanite armies, ALL the Nephites (who resided in the southern body of land) gathered together and then fled through the narrow "neck of land" ... then all the way across the northern body — all the way to what is now Palmyra NY, to a puny hill ... because Nephite military commanders thought it might give them some strategic advantage? That's a trek of over 6,000 miles for men, women, and children (and any flocks/herds they might have taken with them).. How many would survive such an arduous journey? How might such a move possibly be a strategic advantage.

 

And ... why in the world would the full army of the Lamanites follow them all the way across what is now North America? Why not simply say, "good riddance." Note that if the pursuing Lamanite armies didn't take their families with them (unlikely), then they'd likely have to turn around and march 6,000+ miles back to their home. That's not at all logical.

 

For a thorough examination of what Mormon knew, and what he wrote about, without any mention of real world geography read John L. Sorenson's Mormon's Map.

Edited September 2, 2013 by cursor

[Rob Osborn]

So, during the final retreat of the Nephites from Lamanite armies, ALL the Nephites (who resided in the southern body of land) gathered together and then fled through the narrow "neck of land" ... then all the way across the northern body — all the way to what is now Palmyra NY, to a puny hill ... because Nephite military commanders thought it might give them some strategic advantage? That's a trek of over 6,000 miles for men, women, and children (and any flocks/herds they might have taken with them).. How many would survive such an arduous journey? How might such a move possibly be a strategic advantage.

 

And ... why in the world would the full army of the Lamanites follow them all the way across what is now North America? Why not simply say, "good riddance." Note that if the pursuing Lamanite armies didn't take their families with them (unlikely), then they'd likely have to turn around and march 6,000+ miles back to their home. That's not at all logical.

 

For a thorough examination of what Mormon knew, and what he wrote about, without any mention of real world geography read John L. Sorenson's Mormono's Map.

And yet the settlers and armies of the US several hundred years ago chased the Indians all over the country, some of which seeked their entire anhilation.

In the destruction of the Nephite nation we are not speaking of some small destruction. It took the better part of 30 years for the Nephite nation to be slowly driven from the land southward until their eventual retreat to Cumorah in hopes of holding off the hoarding armies of the massive Lamanite nation. We know factually that ore by the hundreds of thousands of tons were excavated and worked anciently in the Great Lake regions and product shipped far and wide into Mexico and Central America. We also know that ancient fortifications as described in BoM times were found by the thousands up the Mississippi and Ohio river valleys. The lands immediately around western New York, the Finger Lakes, etc, were scattered with ancient warfare relics when settlers first arrived. It was such an enigma that the Smithsonian was in part established to try to piece together this ancient deceased nations. Historical records document fortifications found and the war relics left behind leading even at least one prominent figure to explain that it appeared to be the site where two great nations came to an end.

People do strange things in war. This great last Nephite destruction was no ordinary war fought over a mere 300 mike area. This was the entire hunt them down and kill them war. Early Americans had the same exact form of travel as did BoM peoples and they fought and chased each other thousands of miles. Why can we not assume th same capabilities by the Nephites?

[Bikeemikey]

And yet the settlers and armies of the US several hundred years ago chased the Indians all over the country, some of which seeked their entire anhilation.

In the destruction of the Nephite nation we are not speaking of some small destruction. It took the better part of 30 years for the Nephite nation to be slowly driven from the land southward until their eventual retreat to Cumorah in hopes of holding off the hoarding armies of the massive Lamanite nation. We know factually that ore by the hundreds of thousands of tons were excavated and worked anciently in the Great Lake regions and product shipped far and wide into Mexico and Central America. We also know that ancient fortifications as described in BoM times were found by the thousands up the Mississippi and Ohio river valleys. The lands immediately around western New York, the Finger Lakes, etc, were scattered with ancient warfare relics when settlers first arrived. It was such an enigma that the Smithsonian was in part established to try to piece together this ancient deceased nations. Historical records document fortifications found and the war relics left behind leading even at least one prominent figure to explain that it appeared to be the site where two great nations came to an end.

People do strange things in war. This great last Nephite destruction was no ordinary war fought over a mere 300 mike area. This was the entire hunt them down and kill them war. Early Americans had the same exact form of travel as did BoM peoples and they fought and chased each other thousands of miles. Why can we not assume th same capabilities by the Nephites?

This is all very interesting but unless you can CFR the numerous assertions you have made and provide a name for your so called "prominent figure" no one is going to be convinced.

CFR please.

Names please.

Otherwise this is just made up nonsense.

[cursor]

Hi Rob.

 

You've clearly not paid responsible attention (based on BofM recorded events) to distances between the land of Nephi (in the southern body of land), and hill Cumorah/Ramah (in the northern body of land), nor have you seriously studied the closeness of that final battleground(s) hill to the narrow neck of land.

Edited September 2, 2013 by cursor

[Robert F. Smith]

Going off memory here: doesn't John Sorensen point out that within the Isthmus of Tehuantepec there is a "narrow pass going north and south that at various seasons of the year is effectively surrounded by "seas" due to seasonal flooding? The higher ground "pass" running through the impassable wet ground is very narrow, easily fitting into the day or day and a half's journey from the west to the east seas....

I am impressed with your perspicacity here, Beast.  You actually read Sorenson and recalled one of the points of importance.  I gave you a rep point.

[talltimber]

Nephi never saw Mesoamerica.  Del DowDell is the only one making complete sense.  (go to Nephicode.com)

[Darren10]

Nephi never saw Mesoamerica.  Del DowDell is the only one making complete sense.  (go to Nephicode.com)

One of the major strong points for me regarding a Mesoamerican setting is that only in Mesoamerica do we find evidence of a highly literate people. Furthermore, John L. Sorenson's advocacy to read the text and make determinations based on the textual reading of the Book of Mormon combined with archeological evidence we have recovered from the Americas is a big selling point to me. This includes calculating the distances from place to place based upon travel time. How well do these travel times match up in a South American setting?

[Darren10]

Rob Orbson;

From the same thread you referenced for this thread you wrote:

It is then explained that the land southward is entirely surrounded by water except for the narrow neck of land which led into the land northward. The only place that fits this exact criteria is the narrow neck being the land of Panama with the land southward being South America.

I sure do hope you were not thinking about the Panama Canal.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Darren10

[Brant Gardner]

Del DowDell is the only one making complete sense.

He makes sense only if you are willing to toss science and human history out of the equation. Dowdell's model requires that significant portions of South America be under water at a time when archaeology knows that there were people living there. His argument that the Amazon basin was under water begins by noting that science says that it was perhaps millions of years ago--but of course that can't be correct. So, it must have been under water during Book of Mormon times and then changed with the events at the time of Christ's death. 

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me, let alone "complete sense."

[Hamba Tuhan]

This great last Nephite destruction was no ordinary war fought over a mere 300 mike area.

 

I'm not particularly wed to the Mesoamerican (or any other) model, but as a professional historian, I feel confident that the geography present in the Book of Mormon text is not vast, and certainly not continental.

[livy111us]

He makes sense only if you are willing to toss science and human history out of the equation. Dowdell's model requires that significant portions of South America be under water at a time when archaeology knows that there were people living there. His argument that the Amazon basin was under water begins by noting that science says that it was perhaps millions of years ago--but of course that can't be correct. So, it must have been under water during Book of Mormon times and then changed with the events at the time of Christ's death. 

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me, let alone "complete sense."

 

This was just published a few days ago: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0072746

 

It speaks of a settlement recently excavated which dates to 10,000 years. This area should have been underwater according to Dowdell's model. There are many other sites that have been found all over Amazonia which date to ancient times as well. There is WAY too much evidence you have to ignore in order to accept this theory.

[Questing Beast]

In the Book of Mormon there is a clear distinction between "the narrow neck of land" that separated to large land masses, and two "narrow passage"s (which provide limited geographic access). Consider:

Sorenson: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=101&chapid=1137

Nibley: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=60&chapid=614

Yes, that brings some things back to memory more clearly.

 

I always have had a difficulty visualizing how Mosiah the First could leave the land of Nephi, go northward with his entire people (numbering in the many thousands), wander until they found Zarahemla, and become established there as the rulers of the combined peoples; yet a generation later when Zeniff's people reverse their course back to the land of Nephi, somehow all knowledge of this double passage through the wilderness between Zarahemla and Nephi gets lost inside of one generation: Limhi's explorers pass within virtual contact range of the land of Zarahemla, go through the "narrow pass" - one of the most distinctive geographical features of the entire book - all the way to "Cumorah", and return to Nephi, and never see anyone or any trace of civilization. Inconceivable.

 

Nibley, of course, is leaving out the impossible combination of Jaredite and Nephite final destruction. Yes, the Nephites could flee all the way to upper NY and perish there. The Jaredites could not have perished there, for the reasons of distance: Limhi's explorers could not conceivably be so far ignorant of their fathers' journeys as to confuse a couple of hundred miles for over three thousand! That's why we have "two Cumorahs", after all....

[cursor]

At this point in society they were an entire nation which had spread to all parts of the land.

 

For the best understanding, one must ask what it was that Mormon considered to the geographic scope of their "land."

[thesometimesaint]

Probably no more than about 300 square miles.

[Questing Beast]

You mean no more than 300 miles in a given direction, rather than "square miles", I assume?...

[Rob Osborn]

It seems like a lot of people debate over the distances of various lands even coming to the conclusion of two separate Cumorahs. What we know about the narrow neck may give us some perspective as to distance. We know from BoM records that Nephilanded in the land southward and from there he and his people branched out eventually finding the people of Zarahemla. They also ventured into the land northward and eventually settled the land. What we also know is this venturing northward to even find the special feature- the narrow neck, took several hundred years and actual expedition parties. Looking strictly at a meso-American model, the facts don't really add up because the narrow neck is pretty far northward from the southern lands. One wonders why a special feature within 200 miles of their lands would take hundreds of years to find? It took Europeans only 200 years to completely traverse North and South America and only another 200 years after that to pretty much settle all parts of the continents.

We are told in the BoM that it too took about that same amount of time for them to explore and begin settling all parts of the land. But somehow we tend to limit the BoM peoples with distances as if it is some insurrmountable barrier. When I read the BoM I tend to get the picture that this narrow neck is just that- a neck of land having some distance to it all the while it being relatively narrow. The isthmus of Teuhuantepec cannot truly be considered a neck with relevence to surrounding geography. The Yucatan itself is roughly the same width as this neck. Even more troubling though is that one actually has to travel a more southward direction from the middle of the Yucatan to get to this narrow neck which is supposed to be north of the middle of their lands. In the great last battles of the Nephites and Lamanites the Nephites begin their defense in the southern part of their lands south of Zarahemla. From that point they are slowly pushed forward until they come to the narrow neck. Many battles are fought over this geographical feature until finally the Nephites are pushed further northward inti the land of desolation. Of importance is the fact that the narrow neck was a very strategic feature and easily guarded against invasion.

The Isthumus of Teuhuantepec is not a feature thst can be easily nor strategically guarded against. To have a army strung out on a line of 150 miles creates a lot of holes and weak points. Besides that, it is so wide that there isnt a specific known spot on the ground where it could be a feature that describes itself as leading into the land of desolation. It misses on every count.

[thesometimesaint]

You mean no more than 300 miles in a given direction, rather than "square miles", I assume?...

 

Fumble fingers strick again. You are correct.

[thesometimesaint]

It seems like a lot of people debate over the distances of various lands even coming to the conclusion of two separate Cumorahs. What we know about the narrow neck may give us some perspective as to distance. We know from BoM records that Nephilanded in the land southward and from there he and his people branched out eventually finding the people of Zarahemla. They also ventured into the land northward and eventually settled the land. What we also know is this venturing northward to even find the special feature- the narrow neck, took several hundred years and actual expedition parties. Looking strictly at a meso-American model, the facts don't really add up because the narrow neck is pretty far northward from the southern lands. One wonders why a special feature within 200 miles of their lands would take hundreds of years to find? It took Europeans only 200 years to completely traverse North and South America and only another 200 years after that to pretty much settle all parts of the continents.

We are told in the BoM that it too took about that same amount of time for them to explore and begin settling all parts of the land. But somehow we tend to limit the BoM peoples with distances as if it is some insurrmountable barrier. When I read the BoM I tend to get the picture that this narrow neck is just that- a neck of land having some distance to it all the while it being relatively narrow. The isthmus of Teuhuantepec cannot truly be considered a neck with relevence to surrounding geography. The Yucatan itself is roughly the same width as this neck. Even more troubling though is that one actually has to travel a more southward direction from the middle of the Yucatan to get to this narrow neck which is supposed to be north of the middle of their lands. In the great last battles of the Nephites and Lamanites the Nephites begin their defense in the southern part of their lands south of Zarahemla. From that point they are slowly pushed forward until they come to the narrow neck. Many battles are fought over this geographical feature until finally the Nephites are pushed further northward inti the land of desolation. Of importance is the fact that the narrow neck was a very strategic feature and easily guarded against invasion.

The Isthumus of Teuhuantepec is not a feature thst can be easily nor strategically guarded against. To have a army strung out on a line of 150 miles creates a lot of holes and weak points. Besides that, it is so wide that there isnt a specific known spot on the ground where it could be a feature that describes itself as leading into the land of desolation. It misses on every count.