The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[Rob Osborn]

For the best understanding, one must ask what it was that Mormon considered to the geographic scope of their "land."

To put some perspectives in place-

It took less than a hundred years for the Incas to rise to power and control an empire spanning no less than some 3,000 miles in a north to south direction. The ancient copper mines of the Great Lakes were part of an established trading society that spanned from Canada to Central America. The influence and impact of the Maya spanned no less than 2,000 miles. The mound builders spanned an area of half the United States with an impact area much larger than that. Migrant Indians in the early 1800's traveled thousands of miles to escape the white man.

With those perspectives in mind, it is not hard to see a much more established and advanced people such as the Nephites and Lamanites controling the better part of all of North and South America. Keep this in mind also-

The Jaredites were highly advanced in tjeir society. In several places in the BoM we are told that no other nation on earth was as blessed as were the Jaredites. During their final battles they were commanding armies in the millions of peoples. No small area of 200 miles by 400 miles is going to logically people and support armies of that size in ancient times. That small of an area woyld be lucky to support an army of ten thoysand soldiers. In perspective, the Nephites and Lamanites were astronomically smaller in scale and yet we are told that Mormon first took control of an army of 30,000. He withstood armies of 50,000 early on. About 45 years later he stopped counting the numbers they wete so high on the Lamanite side. The Nephites were greatly outnumbered. From there they flee to Cumorah and in that final battle just on the Nephite side some 220,000 soldiers are killed in battle by the Lamanite armies. Many more Nephites flee but are hunted down and killed.

Now, to put things in a little perspective- During the American Revolutionary war which spanned substancially large geographical areas, the Continental Army led by General Washington never exceeded 24,000 men. They had terrible supply issues with food, supplies, etc. Now, that was roughly an army a 1/10th the size of Mormobs army in the big battle at Cumorah. Let me just ask, if Amercans spread over 2,000 miles distance had troubles supplying food,supplies to an army a tenth the size of Mormons, how much larger was Mormons nation?

[Questing Beast]

I've always considered that the c. quarter of a million killed on the Nephite side included men, women and children. The men were in front, their families camped behind. A camp of "ten thousand" under a captain was roughly 2,500 men, still a lot of armed men....

[cursor]

... somehow we tend to limit the BoM peoples with distances as if it is some insurrmountable barrier.

 

Distances internal to the Book of Mormon are generally expressed in terms of how long it took to travel a number of particular routes. Reasonable consideration should be given to who was doing doing it (for example: families with women & children, flocks & herds ... vs. soldiers).

 

The isthmus of Teuhuantepec cannot truly be considered a neck with relevence to surrounding geography. 

 

I don't see why not. It was good enough for Mormon.

 

Of importance is the fact that the narrow neck was a very strategic feature and easily guarded against invasion..

 

I suspect that you're confusing the "narrow neck" with the "narrow pass". The two are not the same.

 

Alma 52:9

And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.

 

Alma 50:34

And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

 

Mormon 3:5

And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

[Questing Beast]

How can Alma 50:34 NOT be the "narrow neck" since the "narrow pass" is inclusive inside of it, and yet this verse specifically mentions that the "pass" is bordered by both west and east seas?....

[cursor]

Alma 50:34

And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

 

The phrasing doesn't require the 'east sea' and the 'west sea'. In fact, the wording and punctuation suggest otherwise:

1. Note that the narrow pass "lead by the sea" – singular.

2. a comma separates any mention of "the sea", from "on the west and on the east."

 

 Instead consider, 

"and they did head them by the narrow pass which lead ... by the sea — and met them on the west and on the east."

(compare with Alma 2:37, Helaman 8:31, and ...)

Edited September 3, 2013 by cursor

[EllenMaksoud]

On a previously locked topic thesometimesaint posted this- " I think Sorenson has a better claim for the isthmus of Tehuantepec in Mesoamerica" http://www.fairlds.o..._Take_Place.pdf

I tend to disagree. The main interest of geography in the BoM is this narrow neck that separated the land northward from the land southward. In Sorensons limited geography model he posits that this narrow neck is the isthmus of Teuhuantepec in Mexico. I have wondered why this theory is held up so respectively when the criteria the BoM presents does not fit this area at all. The biggest blow is that the land soutjward was completely surrounded by water except for the narrow neck of land on the north that connected it to the land northward. If the isthmus of Teuhuantepec were this narrow neck as proposed then it cannot be completely surrounded by water. The second big blow is that the BoM describes this narrow land mass as a neck which led into the land northward. From the point of view the Nephites had on the ground the isthmus of Teuhuantepec is anything but a narrow neck. In fact, if we use Sorensons limited geographic model, most of the land southward is of the same distance across as the narrow neck itself.

The facts of the BoM geography concerning the narrow neck do not fit the isthmus of Teuhuantepec theory.

I don't know much about this subject at all. I was wondering if the cultural definition of North could be somewhat looser than what we know it to be today. Perhaps their North would be Northerly to us?

 

A case in point was in my younger years, I simply thought that the Columbia River ran West. Actually, in reality after it passes Portland, it runs almost straight North for around 40 miles, a fact that I did not realize until I was on a boat in the river, guiding it toward St Helens and watched the Compass.

[Rob Osborn]

Distances internal to the Book of Mormon are generally expressed in terms of how long it took to travel a number of particular routes. Reasonable consideration should be given to who was doing doing it (for example: families with women & children, flocks & herds ... vs. soldiers).

 

 

I don't see why not. It was good enough for Mormon.

 

 

I suspect that you're confusing the "narrow neck" with the "narrow pass". The two are not the same.

 

Alma 52:9

And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.

 

Alma 50:34

And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

 

Mormon 3:5

And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

Distances on the BoM are very vague as to actual distances for the most part. We have only a few references to a foggy idea of a few places. We know that it was a day and half journey at some point within the narrow neck. Reasonbly speaking this would be somewhere in the 40-80 mile range. Anymore than 80 becomes too large a distance for an average Nephite, especially concerning terrain through hills, valleys, rivers, jungle,etc.

The narrow pass may in fact be anoother name for the "narrow neck".

[cursor]

Distances on the BoM are very vague as to actual distances for the most part. We have only a few references to a foggy idea of a few places. We know that it was a day and half journey at some point within the narrow neck. Reasonbly speaking this would be somewhere in the 40-80 mile range. Anymore than 80 becomes too large a distance for an average Nephite, especially concerning terrain through hills, valleys, rivers, jungle,etc.

 

Aside from the narrow neck measurement that you reference above, what other significant distance measurement episodes are related in the Book of Moron? How are they to be responsibly interpreted? And, how do they dramatically, and necessarily limit the geographic scope of the history compiled by Mormon?

[Rob Osborn]

Aside from the narrow neck measurement that you reference above, what other significant distance measurement episodes are related in the Book of Moron? How are they to be responsibly interpreted? And, how do they dramatically, and necessarily limit the geographic scope of the history compiled by Mormon?

We know that there is a point spoken of when a journey is made from some location near to Zarahemla southward from there to some location in the land of Nephi (Lamanite territory) taking 21 days. Not sure exactly how many miles they could make in a day but it is probably in the 15-30 mile a day range. This would put that distance in a north to south direction at somewhere between 250-600 miles. Of importance is that this distance was from probably the center of the land of Zarahemla to the center of the land of Nephi in the south. This distance does not include total distance from north to south borders in both lands which probably was another few hundred miles conservatively. We know the land of Zarahemla was centered in the lands of their dealings. From Zarahemla you still have the land of Bountiful which is northward and then it comes into the land area of the narrow neck. From tje narrow neck you then go even further northward until you come into the land of desolation. Desolation is some very considerable distance from Zarahemla that is spoken of as being a fairly great distance it being so far northward. The land of Cumorah is never spoken of in terms of distance. Be it a few hundred miles or a few thousand we cannot be sure. I personably believe the New York location for Cumorah is plausible. It meets the criteria of being a land of many waters. It also is a land south of the waters of Ripliancum (which means to exeed all). Its interesting that we call them the great lakes which also means waters greater than all else. The many mound and fortification sites also point to a society awaiting a great defense of their country and peoples. Then, when you add in the fact that the whole area of western New York was covered by war relics of ancient origin it all falls into place.

Some cite the New York Cumorah as being too far a distance. But we must remember that until Mormon writes his epistle to the Lamanite king, they had been pushed completely out of all their lands southward, pushed out of the land mass of the narrow neck and pushed into the land of Desolation. As previously mentioned, Desolation was a very considerable distance from Zarahemla. My guess is that Desolation was probably no less than a thousand miles from Zarahemla. So, if they had already been swept off and forced a thousand miles then another 1500 to 2000 miles isnt that much further. Plus, it has to be far enough away that they can hope for an advantage. My guess here is that between the colder climate, the way the finger lakes and rivers lay that this would provide an adequate advantage. Of particular note is that the ancient fortifications of the mound buildes shows they were in defense of a southern attack.

[Robert F. Smith]

How can Alma 50:34 NOT be the "narrow neck" since the "narrow pass" is inclusive inside of it, and yet this verse specifically mentions that the "pass" is bordered by both west and east seas?....

Should I take back the rep point I gave you thinking that you understood the nature of the narrow pass (paseo del mar) as a natural bridge with the marshlands and waters of lowland Veracruz on either side -- especially during the rainy season.  You said you recalled reading that in Sorenson.  It was the abundant inland water which made it possible for the Olmec to float huge stones to their various cities in that entire area.  They quarried the stones in the Tuxtlas mountains.

[Tiki]

Fumble fingers strick again. You are correct.

I believe it's 500 x 200:

"The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map. That is still considerably larger than the stage on which most Old Testament events took place."

http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=101&id=1139&q=Five%20hundred%20miles&search_result

I believe that's as far as the Mormon Battalion marched and the distance from Navuoo to the Salt Lake Valley.

[Robert F. Smith]

We know that there is a point spoken of when a journey is made from some location near to Zarahemla southward from there to some location in the land of Nephi (Lamanite territory) taking 21 days. Not sure exactly how many miles they could make in a day but it is probably in the 15-30 mile a day range. This would put that distance in a north to south direction at somewhere between 250-600 miles. Of importance is that this distance was from probably the center of the land of Zarahemla to the center of the land of Nephi in the south. This distance does not include total distance from north to south borders in both lands which probably was another few hundred miles conservatively. We know the land of Zarahemla was centered in the lands of their dealings. From Zarahemla you still have the land of Bountiful which is northward and then it comes into the land area of the narrow neck. From tje narrow neck you then go even further northward until you come into the land of desolation. Desolation is some very considerable distance from Zarahemla that is spoken of as being a fairly great distance it being so far northward. The land of Cumorah is never spoken of in terms of distance. Be it a few hundred miles or a few thousand we cannot be sure. I personably believe the New York location for Cumorah is plausible. It meets the criteria of being a land of many waters. It also is a land south of the waters of Ripliancum (which means to exeed all). Its interesting that we call them the great lakes which also means waters greater than all else. The many mound and fortification sites also point to a society awaiting a great defense of their country and peoples. Then, when you add in the fact that the whole area of western New York was covered by war relics of ancient origin it all falls into place.

Some cite the New York Cumorah as being too far a distance. But we must remember that until Mormon writes his epistle to the Lamanite king, they had been pushed completely out of all their lands southward, pushed out of the land mass of the narrow neck and pushed into the land of Desolation. As previously mentioned, Desolation was a very considerable distance from Zarahemla. My guess is that Desolation was probably no less than a thousand miles from Zarahemla. So, if they had already been swept off and forced a thousand miles then another 1500 to 2000 miles isnt that much further. Plus, it has to be far enough away that they can hope for an advantage. My guess here is that between the colder climate, the way the finger lakes and rivers lay that this would provide an adequate advantage. Of particular note is that the ancient fortifications of the mound buildes shows they were in defense of a southern attack.

There have been a great many people who believed that the lands northward and southward in the Book of Mormon were hemispheric in nature, and their beliefs were sincere.  I recall having just such a belief at one time, even though it was based on the same sort of wild supposition which you are repeatedly making in this thread.  Once you sit down and read the Book of Mormon carefully, it becomes clear that such a geography cannot be so.  Why?  Because, as cursor has suggested, systematic examination of the distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon make that impossible.

 

The profusion and variety of languages and cultures in the Americas are very interesting, but usually have nothing at all to do with the Book of Mormon.  One of the side benefits of reading the BofM more carefully is that it also allows us to focus on the cultures and civilizations which are found within other strictures set by the BofM text:  The only area of literate cultures in the Americas is in Mesoamerica.  The only region in the Americas which has adequate population figures is in Mesoamerica.  The only region in the Americas which has the necessary technical and calendaric savvy is in Mesoamerica.  The only region which has the proper archeological sequence is in Mesoamerica. Etc.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Rob Osborn]

There have been a great many people who believed that the lands northward and southward in the Book of Mormon were hemispheric in nature, and their beliefs were sincere.  I recall having just such a belief at one time, even though it was based on the same sort of wild supposition which you are repeatedly making in this thread.  Once you sit down and read the Book of Mormon carefully, it becomes clear that such a geography cannot be so.  Why?  Because, as cursor has suggested, systematic examination of the distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon make that impossible.

 

The profusion and variety of languages and cultures in the Americas are very interesting, but usually have nothing at all to do with the Book of Mormon.  One of the side benefits of reading the BofM more carefully is that it also allows us to focus on the cultures and civilizations which are found within other strictures set by the BofM text:  The only area of literate cultures in the Americas is in Mesoamerica.  The only region in the

Americas which has adequate population figures is in Mesoamerica.  The only region in the Americas which has the necessary technical and calendaric savvy is in Mesoamerica.  The only region which has the proper archeological sequence is in Mesoamerica. Ethh.

I tend to disagree. I have been contemplating the geography for the past 20 years and I always keep coming back to my instincts that geography was semi-hemispheric with the land southward being South America and the land northward being North America. I have my reasoning and it truly adds up. It always centers around this special feature of the narrow neck as the defing factor. In the great last wars the Nephites and Lamanites divide uo the land boundaries. The Nephites are given all of the land northward and also the narrow neck leading into the land southward. This tells me that the narrow neck is not just a point but actually has substancial length to it. If this narrow neck is the isthmus of Teuhuantepec then it makes no sense as the neck itself is just a point or line and not any substancial mass of length.

Another point you bring up is the language issue. Of note is that the Lamanites were all about the destruction of language, records, etc and thus why the Nephites had special charge of the written records written in this reformed egptian as pattern. I woyldnt expect to find any written things thus left from the Nephites. The Mayan language was uniuque but definately not Nephite. My belief is that the Maya were the late Jaredite civilization. Sure, the dates dont add up but then again, none of the dates that scientists give add up with the history of the BoM.

[Anijen]

 It was the abundant inland water which made it possible for the Olmec to float huge stones to their various cities in that entire area.  They quarried the stones in the Tuxtlas mountains.

I was under the impression that the huge stone heads of the Olmec era has not yet been discovered on how they were transported from the Tuxtlas mountains. I always posited the way you described was the best theory. Is there any papers on this?

[David T]

The Mayan language was uniuque but definately not Nephite. My belief is that the Maya were the late Jaredite civilization. Sure, the dates dont add up but then again, none of the dates that scientists give add up with the history of the BoM.

 

If you have any opportunity, perhaps from interlibrary loan, I highly, highly suggest you check out Gardner's commentary. You likely won't agree with everything he says, but I think there are some substantial important elements to consider with the specific issues you've presented that have absolutely fascinating and compelling connections. And connect in more ways than we could expect or even generally hope for.

 

I would suggest that anyone who wants to be considered well-read on the best and most up-to-date evidence and arguments on this position to become familiar with those books. Even if you ultimately disagree, your arguments and assertions will be made better by having been made familiar with what has been written on the subject. There's a lot. And it's very good.

 

It's best for those who regularly oppose a model to be familiar with the most up-to-date presentation and offering of that model. I often see individuals laughing off the lack of evidence or correlation for a specific issue, only to find that there is material that hasn't been engaged with at all.

 

I'd actually be highly interested to see Rob Osborn's commentary on Brant Gardner's Commentary *grin*

Edited September 3, 2013 by David T

[Questing Beast]

Should I take back the rep point I gave you thinking that you understood the nature of the narrow pass (paseo del mar) as a natural bridge with the marshlands and waters of lowland Veracruz on either side -- especially during the rainy season.  You said you recalled reading that in Sorenson.  It was the abundant inland water which made it possible for the Olmec to float huge stones to their various cities in that entire area.  They quarried the stones in the Tuxtlas mountains.

If you prefer. But I was only observing that the text of Alma 50:34 literally associates the west and east seas as the confines of the narrow pass. Sorenson was looking for such a land feature within his preferred "narrow neck" of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, and I guess he found it, as I remembered reading and you confirmed....

[thesometimesaint]

I believe it's 500 x 200:

"The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map. That is still considerably larger than the stage on which most Old Testament events took place."

http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=101&id=1139&q=Five%20hundred%20miles&search_result

I believe that's as far as the Mormon Battalion marched and the distance from Navuoo to the Salt Lake Valley.

 

No doubt a well trained army can travel great distances, at need. 50 miles is still a long distance to hike in a single day even for a well trained army. They can't keep that up for very long.  But we're not talking about an army. We're are talking about men, women, and children along with their livestock. When the Saints came west they averaged about 3 miles per day. When the Saints came to the San Bernardino valley. Some days travel were measured in negative distances, meaning they actually went backwards.

[Questing Beast]

I believe it's 500 x 200:

"The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map. That is still considerably larger than the stage on which most Old Testament events took place."

http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=101&id=1139&q=Five%20hundred%20miles&search_result

I believe that's as far as the Mormon Battalion marched and the distance from Navuoo to the Salt Lake Valley.

Nope. The Mormon battalion and the pioneers traveled a lot farther than 500 miles, three and four times as far in fact....

[Questing Beast]

No doubt a well trained army can travel great distances, at need. 50 miles is still a long distance to hike in a single day even for a well trained army. They can't keep that up for very long.  But we're not talking about an army. We're are talking about men, women, and children along with their livestock. When the Saints came west they averaged about 3 miles per day. When the Saints came to the San Bernardino valley. Some days travel were measured in negative distances, meaning they actually went backwards.

Don't discount the known historical examples of whole "nations" on the move. Nibley resorted to such examples during the ancient movement of peoples on the Steppes of Asia, and of course the American Indians moved thousands of miles with their families and whole possessions. Fifty miles per day is not only unreasonable it is unnecessary....

[Sevenbak]

No doubt a well trained army can travel great distances, at need. 50 miles is still a long distance to hike in a single day even for a well trained army. They can't keep that up for very long.  But we're not talking about an army. We're are talking about men, women, and children along with their livestock. When the Saints came west they averaged about 3 miles per day. When the Saints came to the San Bernardino valley. Some days travel were measured in negative distances, meaning they actually went backwards.

Just to put things into perspective, those women and children who couldn't keep up were swept over and destroyed.  The fleeing and gathering to Cumorah took 4 years, with cities and villages being burned and the occupants left behind destroyed.  If such a small area is what we are talking about, the final battle would have happened much sooner than 4 years, imo.  

[David T]

Once you sit down and read the Book of Mormon carefully, it becomes clear that such a geography cannot be so.  Why?  Because, as cursor has suggested, systematic examination of the distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon make that impossible.

 

To be fair, I believe that many people can honestly and diligently read the Book of Mormon carefully and come to different conclusions. One's paradigms and assumptions one brings have a major effect on what one sees, and what one understands.

 

I don't doubt that Rob reads the Book of Mormon very carefully. What is clear is that his readings operate and are interpreted through paradigms and assumptions different than ours. I have gone through substantial shattering and re-orienting of paradigms since I first began approaching scriptures and Church History. I have always read the scriptures closely, but my interpretations were always in line with my paradigm at the time. Although at times, some questions caused me down paths of research that re-oriented a paradigm, and then caused me to see the passages in a whole new light.

[Sevenbak]

Don't discount the known historical examples of whole "nations" on the move. Nibley resorted to such examples during the ancient movement of peoples on the Steppes of Asia, and of course the American Indians moved thousands of miles with their families and whole possessions. Fifty miles per day is not only unreasonable it is unnecessary....

Just look at the I-15 corridor.  Brigham Young designed a town every 50-60 miles through the state of Utah, because that's how far a wagon or horse could reasonably go in a day.

 

Or a Tapir... 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On a previously locked topic thesometimesaint posted this- " I think Sorenson has a better claim for the isthmus of Tehuantepec in Mesoamerica" http://www.fairlds.o..._Take_Place.pdf

I tend to disagree. The main interest of geography in the BoM is this narrow neck that separated the land northward from the land southward. In Sorensons limited geography model he posits that this narrow neck is the isthmus of Teuhuantepec in Mexico. I have wondered why this theory is held up so respectively when the criteria the BoM presents does not fit this area at all. The biggest blow is that the land soutjward was completely surrounded by water except for the narrow neck of land on the north that connected it to the land northward. If the isthmus of Teuhuantepec were this narrow neck as proposed then it cannot be completely surrounded by water. The second big blow is that the BoM describes this narrow land mass as a neck which led into the land northward. From the point of view the Nephites had on the ground the isthmus of Teuhuantepec is anything but a narrow neck. In fact, if we use Sorensons limited geographic model, most of the land southward is of the same distance across as the narrow neck itself.

The facts of the BoM geography concerning the narrow neck do not fit the isthmus of Teuhuantepec theory.

Why is this so important to so many. Would it make any difference concerning our faith or beliefs?

[langbert]

 

 

We tend to limit human ambition especially in the past.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.

[Questing Beast]

Just look at the I-15 corridor.  Brigham Young designed a town every 50-60 miles through the state of Utah, because that's how far a wagon or horse could reasonably go in a day.

 

Or a Tapir... 

Yes, a wagon or carriage, with fresh horse teams, replaced at the end of each day, with women and children all riding along. That's not the picture I have of beleaguered nations on the move, getting out of territory being occupied by their enemies....