The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[Calm]

You don't need to cut and paste to answer a CFR.  All you need do is to provide specific page numbers to the passages that you claim support your statement.

And it could be just a few strong cases (3-4 cites) rather than including everything (75 pages)...at least to begin with to see if those satisfy the CFR.

[cursor]

Wait ... you mean that all I have to say for a CFR is "The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Source Book, John L. Sorenson ... read all 415 pages"?

Edited September 17, 2013 by cursor

[MormonMason]

I already made my case. You can laugh at it. Now its your turn.

So, your case is that fortifications not dating to Book of Mormon times, scattered around over several hundreds of miles is evidence of your final battle of Cumorah scenario? You're right to say that we can laugh at it, considering that the Book of Mormon allows for no such scenario.

[livy111us]

Rob, your credibility is quickly dissipating the longer this discussion continues. If I were you I would quit before it is gone altogether.

 

I thought I would also throw in this quote from a discussion earlier.

“Hopewell went into decline in the fourth century C.E., probably affected by a colder phase of climate that lasted three centuries, until the eighth century.” (A Nation of Peoples: A sourcebook on America’s multicultural heritage, Elliot Robert Barkan, pg 51)

Edited September 17, 2013 by livy111us

[Rob Osborn]

You don't need to cut and paste to answer a CFR.  All you need do is to provide specific page numbers to the passages that you claim support your statement.

I did just that.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm sorry but you need to remove "study of the text" from this and replace it with "fantastical imagination".

Your opinion relating to the hill height is based on nothing more than how you imagine things to be. We have zero capacity to determine the hill height based on the content of the text.

I have done a fair amount of hiking in my day. I know what its like to climb in elevation. Cerro el Vigia rises some 1500 feet from its surrounding elevation. That is no easy hike for a wounded individual. He surely wasnt carried up it.

[Rob Osborn]

On this point regarding Mormon and the records, we might be making assumptions about how many records Mormon actually had with him when he went to Cumorah.  One text in the Book of Mormon qualifies what kinds of records were hidden in the hill Shim for Mormon to obtain.  They were defined as "sacred records."  The phrase is repeated three times in such a way as to call into question how many records and of what types of records were preserved by Ammaron and gifted to Mormon.

 

Combine this with the following texts:

 

Mormon 2:17:

I am sure that not all the records kept by the people of Nephi were considered sacred records, particularly mundane things like accounts payable, trading records, population censuses, taxation records, crop yields, and so forth.

 

"Sacred records" would have been religiously-based records like the plates of brass, large plates of Nephi, small plates of Nephi, and some few other records written by sacred writers who handed them down from generation to generation, in addition to Mormon's record, and a handful of sacred relics like the sword of Laban and Liahona, Interpreters, and so forth. The rest, while valuable, could have been considered expendable.

 

This was not the case with the sacred records.  The "sacred records" had to be preserved at all costs.  This distinction might make allowance for the possibility that Mormon might have had considerably less to carry to Cumorah than we might otherwise think.

 

We also know that not all the records would have been written on plates but rather written on scrolls and codices, likely made of bark paper and possibly treated animal skins.  We know that they knew what scrolls were, because scroll still was part of the vocabulary of Mormon and Moroni (see Mormon 5:23; 9:2), and that fact only could have been the case if scrolls still were in use.  That also would make things considerably lighter if other records besides the sacred records kept on plates were involved in being transported.

 

Just something that occurred to me while reading the Book of Mormon this morning.

I read it as Mormon taking all the records with him which are, as he states rather large-

13 And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them.

14 But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.

15 But behold, there are many books and many records of every kind, and they have been kept chiefly by the Nephites.

16 And they have been handed down from one generation to another by the Nephites, even until they have fallen into transgression and have been murdered, plundered, and hunted, and driven forth, and slain, and scattered upon the face of the earth, and mixed with the Lamanites until they are no more called the Nephites, becoming wicked, and wild, and ferocious, yea, even becoming Lamanites.(Helaman 3)

Mormon searched amongst all the records that were in his hands. When Boaz was about to be overthrown along with all the surrounding lands he went to the hill Shim and took out all those records, goes to Cumorah and finishes his abridgement of which at that time he once again states that he cannot write a hundredth of their dealings.-

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.(Words of Mormon 1)

I do think you are right though that there probably were many records kept on scrolls, paper, etc along with metal plates. Its hard to say really how many records Mormon actually hid up in the hill Cumorah but my guess is that it would have been all of them because otherwise they may have been destroyed by the Lamanites.

[MormonMason]

Above is a quibble that c. 500 AD is too late to be Nephite destruction period. But I think "we" are reading too much distinction into this. A single culture had divided into warring factions. For two hundred years more or less, the "Nephites" were one people. Then c. 180 "there began to be Lamanites" in the land. This was still a single culture. After one faction ("Nephite") was killed off and absorbed, the entire remaining faction dissolved into epidemic warfare, as Moroni said. It "collapsed". That there would be any trace remaining of any "forts" from the period is remarkable, given the amount of time since, and the people who have occupied the same area for succeeding centuries. I'm not saying that "Hopewell" is "Lamanite", only that the dating and location supports Rob's theory well enough, given the lack of any hard data. And then there is the warming period either side of "c. 385" which makes "harsh winters" non existent in upper state NY....

CFR on the warming period.  I am looking over δ¹⁸O data for the Great Lakes Region as I write this and, so far, in what I have looked at in several scientific papers, I am seeing what looks to be cooler than 1961-1990 average temperatures for the period in question, which means more snow and cold in that time period in upstate New York.  I have yet to find a high enough resolution proxy to be certain, though, but your source for a warming period might point me to a better source.  So again, on the warming periods either side of c. 385, CFR.

[Rob Osborn]

So, your case is that fortifications not dating to Book of Mormon times, scattered around over several hundreds of miles is evidence of your final battle of Cumorah scenario? You're right to say that we can laugh at it, considering that the Book of Mormon allows for no such scenario.

There is evidence that was presented referring to an apparent ancient race who built fortifications around western New York. There were also historical records of testimony given that some had even went so far as to say that it appeared as if an ancient race had been exterminated thete in western New York.

Go ahead and laugh though, all those witnesses are dead now. Seems no one is willing to put any evidence forth on an ancient battle in the Cerro El Vigia Cumorah model. Doesnt surprise me though, cumorah is not that place.

[MormonMason]

I did just that.

No, you didn't.  You told him the name of the book and to read all 75 pages.  You were not specific.

[Rob Osborn]

No, you didn't.  You told him the name of the book and to read all 75 pages.  You were not specific.

Those 75 pages are specific to what was wanted. How is this any different than posting a video that is 45 minutes long? They both take the same amount of time to go over?

[Questing Beast]

CFR on the warming period.  I am looking over δ¹⁸O data for the Great Lakes Region as I write this and, so far, in what I have looked at in several scientific papers, I am seeing what looks to be cooler than 1961-1990 average temperatures for the period in question, which means more snow and cold in that time period in upstate New York.  I have yet to find a high enough resolution proxy to be certain, though, but your source for a warming period might point me to a better source.  So again, on the warming periods either side of c. 385, CFR.

http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm But Robert says that isn't as good as the chart he posted about. I said that I don't understand it very well. But if a warming spell occurred during the fourth century AD then harsh winter conditions around Cumorah NY would not be an issue....

[MormonMason]

...

I do think you are right though that there probably were many records kept on scrolls, paper, etc along with metal plates. Its hard to say really how many records Mormon actually hid up in the hill Cumorah but my guess is that it would have been all of them because otherwise they may have been destroyed by the Lamanites.

He only took the sacred records, and only those left to him by Ammaron.  Not all Nephite records were sacred.  So, the question of overall weight and numbers of metal plates still comes into play.  We could have been making considerable assumptions given that the sacred records would have been comparatively few by comparison to all the others.

 

I have done a fair amount of hiking in my day. I know what its like to climb in elevation. Cerro el Vigia rises some 1500 feet from its surrounding elevation. That is no easy hike for a wounded individual. He surely wasnt carried up it.

Mormon doesn't say where he is wounded.

[MormonMason]

Those 75 pages are specific to what was wanted. How is this any different than posting a video that is 45 minutes long? They both take the same amount of time to go over?

He asked for specific pages with specific information.  For watching videos, you reference it by time index.  Some people don't want to watch the whole video or read 75 pages to find a single paragraph.  Some people, like myself, when they get busy often do not have the time to go over such.

[Rob Osborn]

No, you didn't.  You told him the name of the book and to read all 75 pages.  You were not specific.

Those 75 pages are specific to what was wanted. How is this any different than posting a video that is 45 minutes long? They both take the same amount of time to go over?

He asked for specific pages with specific information.  For watching videos, you reference it by time index.  Some people don't want to watch the whole video or read 75 pages to find a single paragraph.  Some people, like myself, when they get busy often do not have the time to go over such.

Hum...my bad then. The 75 pages is a good read though.

[MormonMason]

http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm But Robert says that isn't as good as the chart he posted about. I said that I don't understand it very well. But if a warming spell occurred during the fourth century AD then harsh winter conditions around Cumorah NY would not be an issue....

I thank you, anyway, for providing the link.  Unfortunately, that one you posted has even lower resolution than the several papers I have been combing through.  And, the chart you linked is global paleoclimate plus instrumental, which tells us little to nothing about the specific climate of upstate New York in the relevant time period.  It has been found that climate effects in one region or a cluster of regions does not always affect certain other regions.  This why there has been so much fuss over whether we refer to one period as the Medieval Warm Period or the Medieval Climate Anomaly, and so forth.  This still is hotly debated.

 

The reason why this still is hotly debated is because there were regions and pockets of places that actually were cooler during the same time frame.  We need data specific to the upstate New York area.  I am tracking down δ18O proxy records in sediment cores for several lakes in the upstate New York area.  These records tell us about the climatic conditions in local areas.  What I am seeing so far looks nothing like the low resolution global proxy averages record you linked.  It is looking cooler in that period in that location  But, even what I am looking at is not high enough resolution for my satisfaction to draw a firm conclusion. I am also looking for raw data to run the numbers myself for verification.  If you come across any, please do not hesitate to let us know.

[Rob Osborn]

He only took the sacred records, and only those left to him by Ammaron.  Not all Nephite records were sacred.  So, the question of overall weight and numbers of metal plates still comes into play.  We could have been making considerable assumptions given that the sacred records would have been comparatively few by comparison to all the others.

 

Mormon doesn't say where he is wounded.

Well we certainly dont know what the size of the records were that Mormon took to Cumorah. I am betting though he used some kind of wheeled cart or pack animals to take them.

Mormon was wounded in battle the day before he was on top of Cumorah. My guess is that Mormon was somewhere around the hill but not on it when he was wounded because he led his 10,000 in battle.

[Calm]

 being led in the front by me

This could mean his ten thousand were at the fore of the battle and he was in charge of them or that Mormon was at the front of his ten thousand physically leading them....but it doesn't say that the ten thousand actually marched out to war, they could have stayed in place tucked around the foothills where they had a superior defensive position.

Hum...my bad then. The 75 pages is a good read though.

So you recognize you are not fulfilling the CFR.  Will you now post specific pages?

 

Mormon was wounded in battle the day before he was on top of Cumorah. My guess is that Mormon was somewhere around the hill but not on it when he was wounded because he led his 10,000 in battle.

 

He could have had a minor wound on his head that knocked him out and looked much worse than it was....he certainly wasn't moaning and groaning in pain as he likely would have been with a gut or leg wound, something that didn't impede his movement around when they went to the top of the hill.  It either had to be minor enough he had enough selfcontrol to play dead or knock him senseless for a short time...after which he could have recovered enough to walk just fine as many concussion victims do.  He was in good enough shape to at least dictate to his son or someone else the record, which required a clear and thoughtful head, imo, not one troubled too much by his wound.

 

Given that they had spent four years living in the area (which means quite possible that hiking up the hill was a frequent occurrence for Mormon as it would have been a good aid to knowing where and how his people were situated and the position of the Lamanites to prepare against) preparing for the war and that likely meant fighting practice, given that their lives were much less eased by things of convenience such as cars to move them around or computers to do their writing for them or washing machines to do the laundry, etc., chances are that even at his age where he was just beginning to be old, Mormon was in a lot better shape than you and the hike up the hill was a piece of cake for him on a good day and not that hard with a wound as long as it didn't impede his walking (one can endure a lot of pain if one has to and still work through it, might even feel better for it as it can be a distraction).

 

 I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

 

Mormon did not die from the effects of his wound, he was hunted and killed like all the rest of the 24 later except for Moroni (at least according to Moroni's knowledge).

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. 

 

 

 

my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

 

 

This sounds like all the Nephites could likely see the Lamanites approaching from far off, not just those few at the top of a hill (which wouldn't give them much distance if it was the height of NY Cumorah...anyone have the experience of standing at the top of that?  if so, how far off could you see and how long do you think it would have taken an army to approach that distance?) in that they had to wait some time to "receive" them after spotting them in the distance....which means the ground on which they were camped was likely higher than the ground on which the Lamanites were approaching from.  Does this work for either place?

[Calm]

http://www.bmaf.org/node/333

[poulsenll]

http://www.bmaf.org/node/389

[MormonMason]

Well, I did manage to find something, the data of which I cannot verify because there is no raw data available to me.  It seems to show a warmer period for c. 385 CE but this was cooler than was the Medieval Warm Period/Medieval Climate Anomaly (there still could have been snow for part of the winter), but the data for the time frame of the fall of the Jaredites at Ramah was significantly cooler than normal.

 

So, based on this information, it looks like Ramah could not have been in New York.  They would have been traipsing through some snow, at least, but at the very least it would have been quite cold, because even normal temperatures produce significant cold in upstate New York.  The readings are below normal during the time frame of the ending of the Jaredite civilization at Ramah.  And we know that Ramah was the same hill that was later called Cumorah.  There also was no mention of snow or cold in conjunction with the final battles of the Jaredites at Ramah, by either Mormon or Moroni, or even by Ether.

 

Still, in fairness to Rob, I would like to see raw data from all periods in question, as well as data specific to only New York area before finalizing my conclusion, but for now it doesn't look good for the New York Cumorah theory, particularly for the Jaredite period.

 

Here is a chart generated from what limited data I could locate thus far.

 

 

The chart can be generated from the following site.

 

http://www.longrangeweather.com/600bc.htm

 

I will continue to look for good, raw data from New York Region proxies.  Should I obtain some good information, I'll share it.  In any case I will be fair.  I just want to point out now that I am about to run out of time and may not be able to post for some time if things get as hectic as expected.

[MormonMason]

...

 

This sounds like all the Nephites could likely see the Lamanites approaching from far off, not just those few at the top of a hill (which wouldn't give them much distance if it was the height of NY Cumorah...anyone have the experience of standing at the top of that?  if so, how far off could you see and how long do you think it would have taken an army to approach that distance?) in that they had to wait some time to "receive" them after spotting them in the distance....which means the ground on which they were camped was likely higher than the ground on which the Lamanites were approaching from.  Does this work for either place?

 

Cal,

 

I am inclined to agree with your observations concerning this.  It is obvious that they were on higher ground that allowed them to see it coming, with all the Lamanites' massive hosts, and await it as it came.  That sort of thing would fill people with greater and greater fear, but they were stuck there.  They could not flee to the north because the waters of Repliancum were in the way.  Now I will point out that there are those who reject the proposed location in Mesoamerica that is connected with Cerro El Vigia, simply because it does not look so menacing today.  What people often do not realize is that in Book of Mormon times, that proposed location of the waters of Repliancum was infested with a whole lot of two species of crocodiles.

 

They sometimes won't wait for you to come to the water.  Not long ago, an American tourist in Cancun got the surprise of his life when he decided to answer the call of nature.  One jumped out at him, knocked him to the ground, and started chewing on him.  The kind that attacked him were the same species that infested the proposed site of the waters of Ripliancum in Sorenson's 1985 model.  You likely wouldn't get far crossing waters infested with them, so that would be a serious barrier to flight to the north, in my opinion.  In modern times, however, they have been made almost an endangered species.

 

I also agree that it was likely a head wound that made it look like Mormon was dead or dying because he was knocked unconscious in the heat of battle.  A leg or arm wound would not have looked like this or made him go unconscious in a manner in which his enemies would have thought him either dead or dying.

Edited September 17, 2013 by MormonMason

[Glenn101]

There is one aspect of the geography debate which I do not recall seeing covered very much if at all. It is about the climate. As in Alama 46:40 Where it says" And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—"

 

Has there been any are of New York that is known for an unhealthy climate? Or mesoamerica?

 

Glenn

Edited September 17, 2013 by Glenn101

[MormonMason]

OK.  The other information I cited above concerning a warming is so out of date that even the organization that produced the data is now defunct.  So, there will be no raw data forthcoming from them.  That said, I just found something else even though it also does not have the resolution I am looking for.  However, it is not global data but a reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere average temperatures for 2000 years.  Here is the chart I looked at just a few minutes ago:

 

 

This chart can be seen in the paper linked here.

 

As can be seen from this, while there was a warming period in in average temperatures c. A.D. 385 (look just to the side of the A.D. 400 mark on the scale of the table), this warming would not have had an effect of preventing snow, ice, and bitter cold.  On the contrary, this recent publication shows that the means would have been lower than the 1961-1990 mean normal temperatures, and still lower than the temperatures we experience today.

 

Today, we get huge volumes of snow in the upstate New York area.  If temperatures were lower in those days than now, and it snows a lot now, it is very likely to have snowed a lot at that period in time as well.  In any case, the temperatures still would have been cold in the New York area c. A.D. 385, and that colder than the mean average during the years 1961-1990.

 

Again, based on this more up-to-date information (published 2010), it makes it considerably less likely that the Nephites were waiting and gathering in the New York location for four years with four seasons of bitter cold that aren't even mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  I am still looking for raw data but not having as much luck as I would like at the moment.  But, even without the raw data it isn't looking good for that New York location so far.

[Questing Beast]

Edited September 17, 2013 by Questing Beast