The Narrow Neck Debate Continues...

[Rob Osborn]

It is irrelevant what you would see this as being.  What matters is what Mormon would have thought about it.  He calls it a hill.  We know nothing about that and his criteria other than that.  All that we can know about Cerro El Vigía is that it is called by the people who live there now a cerro, not a montaña or monte.  A hill, not mountain or mount.

 

We can know another matter as well.  Mormon and the other Nephites were "gathered in" "in one" in the land of Cumorah, and that they were there for four years.  There is not one mention of snow, of frozen rivers, of cold temperatures, or even of any difficulties finding and obtaining food because of the winter.  Absolute silence on these points.  That doesn't sound like upstate New York during winter at all.  The people were living in tents.  If there had been any of these conditions there (and there would have been during the course of New York winters), would not Mormon have spoken of any of it, at least in passing? Not a complaint or mention of cold winters whatsoever.  Not one mention of snow in any amount where they were.  They cannot have been in upstate New York for the final battles.

You are gonna have to do better than that. A lack of mentioning the weather doesnt mean anything. Mormon also fails mentioning any wheeled wagon or horse. Are we to suppose he took all the heavy records on plates and carried them? Hardly.

[Rob Osborn]

Malarkey.  The text says "gathered in" and "in one" to describe where they were.  We know Mormon and the first group were camped "around about" the hill Cumorah.  If one group was in one place and others groups were in other places, they most certainly were not "in one" as Mormon states that they were, and as Mormon told the king of the Lamanites he was going to to.  You essentially are calling Mormon a liar.

 

As to Ether, the Book of Mormon does not state where he went on his night observations, only that he went to look to see what would come of the people.  It is entirely possible that he actually went to talk to people at night because at might he would not be easily recognizable.  He got his statistics from somewhere.  But, he did not finish up his record and go on night observations of the final battles until his second exile.  Recall that he was exiled twice.  On the first instance, he easily could have found out what was going on by speaking with others at night.  After the second exile, that would not have been as easy.

 

I bring up the climate issue because the people you keep comparing were in small bands, not a group of hundreds of thousands of people camped together for four years waiting for battle.  I keep bringing up the climate issue because there is not a single mention of snow or cold weather where Mormon is located.  There is not one mention of having difficulty obtaining water because the rivers and brooks were frozen and they needed to melt snow to drink.  There is not one mention of having food supply problems due to winter.  In fact, Mormon doesn't mention winter at all.  He would have had this occurred in New York.  They are in the open and exposed for four years camped in a body of hundreds of thousands of people.  There is no mention of collapses of peoples' tents from the weight of the snow pressing upon them.  No way the final battles happened in New York.  It really is that simple.  Mormon would have said something relating to the weather had it been notable.  I can assure you that an upstate New York winter is anything but not notable.

Not calling Mormon a liar at all, Im just stating that Mormon gatheted his people to the "land" of Cumorah and that from there they could battle at the hill. Your weather issue is not working, give it up. Perhaps Mormon tjought the climate would work in his favor.

[Robert F. Smith]

Perhaps you could look into some of the earliest historical rwcords of what they actually found in western New York.

Perhaps you could cite an archeological report on that material.  Mainstream archeologists and anthropologists are completely at odds with you on this.  Did you even bother to consult the Handbook of North American Indians, or the volume by Gorenstein?  I cited both for you as a kind of reality therapy.  High quality historical reconstructions of the past are readily available to you, if you are willing to review them.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

You are gonna have to do better than that. A lack of mentioning the weather doesnt mean anything. Mormon also fails mentioning any wheeled wagon or horse. Are we to suppose he took all the heavy records on plates and carried them? Hardly.

I shouldn't think a 50-60 pound set of plates would be much of a problem to carry for a robust man in good health.  Our Special Forces, Rangers, SEALS, and Force Recon people ordinarily pack up to 100 pounds wherever they go.

There is no reason to postulate a wagon, unless you erroneously believe that Moroni had to transport other records.  Inventing straw men will not advance this discussion.

[Rob Osborn]

I shouldn't think a 50-60 pound set of plates would be much of a problem to carry for a robust man in good health.  Our Special Forces, Rangers, SEALS, and Force Recon people ordinarily pack up to 100 pounds wherever they go.

There is no reason to postulate a wagon, unless you erroneously believe that Moroni had to transport other records.  Inventing straw men will not advance this discussion.

The Book of Mormon is an abridgement of a lot of records kept chiefly by the Nephites which had been handed down until they fell into Mormons hands. Mormon states several times in his abridging the plates that he cannot even write but a hundredth of the many records in his possession-

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

No straw man, just the hard facts. Mormon was in possession of a vast record vault. If he only abridged a hundredth part and it was what ws delivered unto Joseph Smith, then how far greater were the entire records in Mormons possessions. I can guarentee that Normon did not carry these records in his possession to Cumorah on his own back. He either had a wagon of some sorts or pack animals.

[Sevenbak]

Not calling Mormon a liar at all, Im just stating that Mormon gatheted his people to the "land" of Cumorah and that from there they could battle at the hill. Your weather issue is not working, give it up. Perhaps Mormon tjought the climate would work in his favor.

They didn't even necessarily battle at or on the hill.  Agreed that the Land of Cumorah means a much broader term in the BoM text, than the hill.

 

When Oliver Cowdrey wrote the first official history of the church (personally signed off by Joseph), he said the Nephites and Jaredites fought west of the hill, in the valleys.  In the BoM, the hill itself was only mentioned at the end to view the carnage and mourn for the people.

 

Here's Oliver's history. In his opening paragraph he clearly states that in order for it to be correct, Joseph signed off on it.

 

 

 

 

 

"That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us. (LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

 

 

I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited.

 

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a LARGE HILL on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the HIGHEST HILL for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller [traveler] as he passes by.

 

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, BETWEEN THESE HILLS, THE ENTIRE POWER AND NATIONAL STRENGTH OF BOTH THE JAREDITES AND NEPHITES WERE DESTROYED.

 

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round THIS HILL CUMORAH. Inthis valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites-once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of THIS HILL, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Savior and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.

 

But a long time previous to this national disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers, which were in his possession, he could have learned that such would be the case. Alma, who lived before the coming of the Messiah, prophesies this. He however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in THIS SAME HILL, CUMORAH, and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

 

It was not the wicked who overcame the righteous; far from this: it was the wicked against the wicked, and by the wicked the wicked were punished.-The Nephites who were once enlightened, had fallen from a more elevated standing as to favor and privilege before the Lord, in consequence of the righteousness of their fathers, and now falling below, for such was actually the case, were suffered to be overcome, and the land was left to the possession of the red men, who were without intelligence, only in the affairs of their wars; and having no records, only preserving their history by tradition from father to son, lost the account of their true origin, and wandered from river to river, from hill to hill, from mountain to mountain, and from sea to sea, till the land was again peopled, in a measure, by a rude, wild, revengeful, warlike and barbarous race.-Such are our Indians.

 

THIS HILL, by the Jaredites, was called (page 158) Ramah: by it, or around it, pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites. The opposing army were to the west, and in this same valley, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of THIS SAME HILL, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellowmen. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact, scenes of misery and distress-the aged, whose silver locks in other places and at other times would command reverence; the mother, who in other circumstances would be spared from violence; the infant, whose tender cries would be regarded and listened to with a feeling of compassion and tenderness; and the virgin, whose grace, beauty and modesty, would be esteemed and held inviolate by all good men and enlightened and civilized nations, alike disregarded and treated with scorn!-In vain did the hoary head and man of gray hairs ask for mercy; in vain did the mother plead for compassion; in vain did the helpless and harmless infant weep for very anguish, and in vain did the virgin seek to escape the ruthless hand of revengeful foes and demons in human form-all alike were trampled down by the feet of the strong, and crushed beneath the rage of battle and war! Alas, who can reflect upon the last struggles of great and populous nations, sinking to dust beneath the hand of justice and retribution, without weeping over the corruption of the human heart, and sighing for the hour when the clangor of arms shall no more be heard, nor the calamities of contending armies no more experienced for a thousand years? Alas, the calamity of war, the extinction of nations, the ruin of kingdoms, the fall of empires and the dissolution of governments! O the misery, distress and evil attendant on these! Who can contemplate like scenes without sorrowing, and who so destitute of commiseration as not to be pained that man has fallen so low, so far beneath the station in which he was created?

 

IN THIS VALE lie commingled, in one mass of ruin, the ashes of thousands, and IN THIS VALE was destined to consume the fair forms and vigerous [vigorous] systems of tens of thousands of the human race-blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones, and dust with dust! When the vital spark which animated their clay had fled, each lifeless lump lay on one common level-cold and inanimate. Those bosoms which had burned with rage against each other for real or supposed injury, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to beat, and the head to think-in silence, in solitude, and in disgrace alike, they have long since turned to earth, to their mother dust, to await the august, and to millions, awful hour, when the trump of the Son of God shall echo and re-echo from the skies, and they come forth, quickened and immortalized, to not only stand in each other's presence, but before the bar of him who is Eternal!

 

With sentiments of pure respect, I conclude by subscribing myself your brother in the gospel.

 

OLIVER COWDERY.

 

[Sevenbak]

I shouldn't think a 50-60 pound set of plates would be much of a problem to carry for a robust man in good health.  Our Special Forces, Rangers, SEALS, and Force Recon people ordinarily pack up to 100 pounds wherever they go.

There is no reason to postulate a wagon, unless you erroneously believe that Moroni had to transport other records.  Inventing straw men will not advance this discussion.

I find it interesting that Mormon refuses to lead the armies... until he see's the archives of records are in danger.  He then takes command again (breaking his vow), and only one or two verses later, takes all the records from the hill Shim and moves them (now with an army to help).  Smart man, that Mormon.  

 

I can't imagine wagons or wheels were not used.  Nor can I imagine that children made clay replicas of toys they had never seen used in real life.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Sevenbak

[MormonMason]

You are gonna have to do better than that. A lack of mentioning the weather doesnt mean anything. Mormon also fails mentioning any wheeled wagon or horse. Are we to suppose he took all the heavy records on plates and carried them? Hardly.

The Book of Mormon says that they marched.  If you've got an army of many thousands to help carry objects you don't need horses or wagons, particularly if you haven't got either at the time.  Besides that, you also need to consider that not all of the records of those people had to have been written in metal.  That all the records of the people of Nephi were written in metal is an assumption on your part, at best.  Many could have been written on bark paper, for all we know.

 

No adverse winter conditions are mentioned at all, and winter does not even get an honorable mention, even though such conditions killed many people, particularly in ancient times.  No mention of cold weather.  No mention of fortifications.  No mention of spreading the people around the land.  That is a lot of stuff not getting mentioned.

 

People gathered in "in one."  People gathered and gathering for four years in a region that has heavy snows and yet not a single word, particularly when their tents would have been collapsed under the weight of the snow falling on them? No mention of snow or ice whatsoever in four winter seasons? Come on, Rob.  How did they cross the Mexican Desert and not have tens of thousands of wicked people die of thirst, and not even that get an honorable mention in the Book of Mormon? Cumorah wasn't even that far away from Mormon when he made the request of the Lamanite king.  There is zero mention of traveling many days or of marching a great distance. Why require what the Book of Mormon doesn't?

 

Mormon says he was going to gather his people together and put them by a hill named Cumorah.  You really think Mormon was a liar? You definitely can do better than that.

 

New York's location just doesn't work for the numbers, for the small size of the region, for the lack of needed supplies and sustenance in that length of time, for the climate, and for just about everything else.

[MormonMason]

...

 

BETWEEN THESE HILLS, THE ENTIRE POWER AND NATIONAL STRENGTH OF BOTH THE JAREDITES AND NEPHITES WERE DESTROYED.

 

... 

 

There was a mile between both those hills and Cowdery confined the battle to between them.  With a number of somewhere between hundreds of thousands and over a million people, stuffed into that valley only a mile across? Not likely.

 

You also should be aware that Oliver Cowdery had resigned as editor of the Messenger and Advocate before that personal letter you cited was published therein. (See page 131, June 1835).

[Rob Osborn]

The Book of Mormon says that they marched.  If you've got an army of many thousands to help carry objects you don't need horses or wagons, particularly if you haven't got either at the time.  Besides that, you also need to consider that not all of the records of those people had to have been written in metal.  That all the records of the people of Nephi were written in metal is an assumption on your part, at best.  Many could have been written on bark paper, for all we know.

 

No adverse winter conditions are mentioned at all, and winter does not even get an honorable mention, even though such conditions killed many people, particularly in ancient times.  No mention of cold weather.  No mention of fortifications.  No mention of spreading the people around the land.  That is a lot of stuff not getting mentioned.

 

People gathered in "in one."  People gathered and gathering for four years in a region that has heavy snows and yet not a single word, particularly when their tents would have been collapsed under the weight of the snow falling on them? No mention of snow or ice whatsoever in four winter seasons? Come on, Rob.  How did they cross the Mexican Desert and not have tens of thousands of wicked people die of thirst, and not even that get an honorable mention in the Book of Mormon? Cumorah wasn't even that far away from Mormon when he made the request of the Lamanite king.  There is zero mention of traveling many days or of marching a great distance. Why require what the Book of Mormon doesn't?

 

Mormon says he was going to gather his people together and put them by a hill named Cumorah.  You really think Mormon was a liar? You definitely can do better than that.

 

New York's location just doesn't work for the numbers, for the small size of the region, for the lack of needed supplies and sustenance in that length of time, for the climate, and for just about everything else.

My point about the records is that the text implies Mormon took the records himself and took them to Cumorah. The point being that there is a lot going on that doesnt get recorded. So who then cares if weather isnt mentioned?

Also of note, we do not know how far the retreating Nephites led by Mormon were northward when he wrote his epistle to the Lamanite King. The meso-American model places Cumorah a mere 70 miles from the narrow neck. The text explains they had already been on the run northward. So, if this be the case and his people are being swept towards Cumorah, a very short or local distance, then why does it take 4 years to gather their people there? Were they just really slow or did Mormon have to send messengers clear up into the north countries to come on down for the battle? And, if this be the case then why would these people from further north try to escape into the lands southward and not back north? The text thus implies a geographical obstacle to the north. Thete is no such obstacle in the meso-American model.

[Calm]

I dont see Cerro el Vigia as a hill but rather a mount.

And yet the people who live there do...thus its name.

Which do you think influenced Mormon to call it a hill, wherever it was located....the perception of those who lived in the area or the perception of some readers 1600 years later who only saw potential candidates in pictures?

It is not like there isn't a word for mountain in Spanish. They have the option to call it that....and yet they don't. But they are wrong according to Rob...got to ask why I should agree with Rob rather than people who see the hill every day of their lives.

Add-on after reading MM's post and the rest of the thread:

Rob, you appear to have ignored this point when MM has mentioned it. I really think you need to deal with it as it doesn't make you look willing to engage all the facts, including the ones against your position if you go on as if nothing was said.

Can this argument at least be officially taken off the table?

Edited September 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[prismsplay]

The meso-American model places Cumorah a mere 70 miles from the narrow neck.

 

The assumption that there is only one Mesoamerican model is wrong, as there are two variants of the Limited Tehuantepec Theory, each named after a river believed to be River Sidon: (1) the Grijalva Variant and (2) the Usumacinta Variant.

 

With either variant, another set of variants exists for the location of Hill Cumorah. At post #296 Cerro Rabon, Oaxaca, Mexico is mentioned. This is the location accepted by some of the leading Book of Mormon scholars of the RLDS tradition, who generally accept the Usumacinta Variant of the Limited TehuantepecTheory.

 

The reasons for accepting Cerro Rabon as Hill Cumorah are manifold. One reason that might repel consideration for some is the youthful testimony of Neil Steede, the leader of the Hill Cumorah Expedition Team. In his youth he claimed to have encountered

one of the three immortal Nephites there. He claimed to have been told that the time had not yet come for the records to be revealed. Years later, when his expedition team attempted to gain access to where they thought the records might be stored, they found that what had once been a possible entrance could not be penetrated without heavy machinery. Nothing like that could be done without permission of the Mexican government.

 

In 2005, Neil Steede was interviewed by a Spanish newspaper in the region. The resulting article, here translated into English, is historically interesting, even if it turns out that Cerro Rabon is not Hill Cumorah:

 

http://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/files/TuxtepecNews41205.pdf

[Anijen]

I find it interesting that Mormon refuses to lead the armies... until he see's the archives of records are in danger.  He then takes command again (breaking his vow), and only one or two verses later, takes all the records from the hill Shim and moves them (now with an army to help).  Smart man, that Mormon.  

 

I can't imagine wagons or wheels were not used.  Nor can I imagine that children made clay replicas of toys they had never seen used in real life.

Smart man yes, I wonder why these replica toys are only found in Mesoamerica, not the US (that date to the Book of Mormon).

 

 

BETWEEN THESE HILLS, THE ENTIRE POWER AND NATIONAL STRENGTH OF BOTH THE JAREDITES AND NEPHITES WERE DESTROYED.

 

Yet there is not a single artifact that has ever confirmed coming from two great battles. In the same place we have found artifacts from Native American Indians as small as campsites of 12 people from the Clovis time period (think 10,000 years ago). One might think if we can find artifacts from such small encampments of ten thousand years ago we should be able to find some evidence of two such battles at such a large scale, and we know where to look. But alas nothing has been found.

[Rob Osborn]

And yet the people who live there do...thus its name.

Which do you think influenced Mormon to call it a hill, wherever it was located....the perception of those who lived in the area or the perception of some readers 1600 years later who only saw potential candidates in pictures?

It is not like there isn't a word for mountain in Spanish. They have the option to call it that....and yet they don't. But they are wrong according to Rob...got to ask why I should agree with Rob rather than people who see the hill every day of their lives.

Add-on after reading MM's post and the rest of the thread:

Rob, you appear to have ignored this point when MM has mentioned it. I really think you need to deal with it as it doesn't make you look willing to engage all the facts, including the ones against your position if you go on as if nothing was said.

Can this argument at least be officially taken off the table?

The Battle at Cumorah likely did not take plave on the hill itself. We know that the hill wad used as a means to view their conqured nation after the battle. We also know that the previous day Mormon lay woubded in the midst of his slain men that he wasnt killed. Then the next day Mormon views his dead from the top of the hill Cumorah. So either the batyle took place near the top or some distance up Cerro El Vigia or a wounded Mormon climbed the 1500 feet to its top. Both cases very unlikely especially when we know that Mormon camped at the base of the hill not on top of the hill. Edited September 15, 2013 by Rob Osborn

[prismsplay]

Yet there is not a single artifact that has ever confirmed coming from two great battles. In the same place we have found artifacts from Native American Indians as small as campsites of 12 people from the Clovis time period (think 10,000 years ago). One might think if we can find artifacts from such small encampments of ten thousand years ago we should be able to find some evidence of two such battles at such a large scale, and we know where to look. But alas nothing has been found.

 

You are looking in the wrong place. If you want to find extensive ancient relics of war around Hill Cumorah, you need to go to the Cerro Rabon area in Oaxaca, Mexico. Read about ancient weapons found there in the article linked to in post #312.

 

To quote from the article, with my comments inserted: "In the foothills of Jalapa de Diaz is where this confrontation [between the Nephites and Lamanites] occurred and since there are no ruins [the Nephites lived in tents there] and there really are no pyramids [or any structures of a permanent character], yet we do know it is a wide battlefield as almost anyone who lives in the outlying areas of Jalapa has found hatchets or obsidian knives, but always weapons. They don't find fine ceramic, but they find some that is crude and rustic [for the use of armies], and we have taken some 40 pieces of hatchets that have tested positive for blood [apparently dried blood in tiny crevices that rains have not penetrated]. We can not prove that it is human blood [after so many centuries], but everything we have tested positive for blood of that we are sure." [if these sentences sound odd in English, it's because they were been translated from an article in Spanish, which is included with the English translation.]

 

Thus, around Cerro Rabon are found ancient weapons of war with traces of blood, yet no ancient ceramics of domestic tranquility, nor any ancient ruins of settled life. Can the same be said for the area around the Hill Cumorah from which the Book of Mormon plates were extracted?

[Rob Osborn]

Smart man yes, I wonder why these replica toys are only found in Mesoamerica, not the US (that date to the Book of Mormon).

 

 

Yet there is not a single artifact that has ever confirmed coming from two great battles. In the same place we have found artifacts from Native American Indians as small as campsites of 12 people from the Clovis time period (think 10,000 years ago). One might think if we can find artifacts from such small encampments of ten thousand years ago we should be able to find some evidence of two such battles at such a large scale, and we know where to look. But alas nothing has been found.

Nonsense. The historical accounts of many in Western New York has the early settlers plowing up a myriad of ancient bones and war relics.

[Rob Osborn]

Another problem is the close proximaty of both hill Shim and Cumirah in the limited Meso-Anerican model. In their defending the city of Desolation Mormon knows the land is about to be overthrown so he goes to the hill Shim and takes all the records. So then he takes them another day or twos journey north to Cumorah where they will be safe? Doesnt seem logical at all.

[canard78]

There was a mile between both those hills and Cowdery confined the battle to between them. With a number of somewhere between hundreds of thousands and over a million people, stuffed into that valley only a mile across? Not likely.

You also should be aware that Oliver Cowdery had resigned as editor of the Messenger and Advocate before that personal letter you cited was published therein. (See page 131, June 1835).

I think there are many sources, not just the one you've replied to that show that the early saints believed Cumorah was the drumlin. Joseph's letters to Emma (plains of the Nephites) back this northern hemisphere view.

I'm fine with Joseph, Oliver and many more being wrong about it. But then I'm generally fine with prophets being wrong. I know I often am, so have learned to not hold them to a higher standard.

Edited September 15, 2013 by canard78

[prismsplay]

In 320 AD, Ammaron hid the sacred records in the hill Shim (4 Nephi 1:48 with Mormon 1:3). About that same time, when Mormon was about 10 years of age, Ammaron said that when Mormon was about 24 years of age, Mormon should take the plates of Nephi to continue the record, but all of the other plates should remain hidden in the hill Shim (Mormon 1:1-5).

 

When the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, Mormon went to the hill Shim and removed all of the records that Ammaron had hid up to the Lord (Mormon 4:23). Although Mormon does not tell us where he moved the records to, it must have been to the hill Cumorah, which, as a military strategist, Mormon knew would be both a better place to keep the records and a better place to make a stand against the Lamanites. For when Mormon obtained permission from the king of the Lamanites to gather the Nephites into one place (Mormon 6:2-3), Mormon chose the land of Cumorah, in which the records were already hidden, and where he was in hope of gaining advantage over the Lamanites (Mormon 6:4). A small hill in New York was not that place.

 

Since I believe that Mormon had already deposited the records in Hill Cumorah prior to gathering the Nephites into the land of Cumorah, when he writes, after that gathering, that he "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni" (Mormon 6:6), I think that meant that he sealed off access to the records to all but Mormoni, who might need access later through a hidden secret entrance. That large collection of records is not hidden in a small hill in New York. Yet it would have to be there if it really was the Hill Cumorah in which Mormon hid up all of the records. That small hill in New York was simply the place where Moroni deposited the plates that Joseph Smith would later translate.

[Questing Beast]

Winter weather in NY being a problem: not if it was a warm period: see the chart on this page: http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm There would probably have been little/light snow or none at all....

[Rob Osborn]

In 320 AD, Ammaron hid the sacred records in the hill Shim (4 Nephi 1:48 with Mormon 1:3). About that same time, when Mormon was about 10 years of age, Ammaron said that when Mormon was about 24 years of age, Mormon should take the plates of Nephi to continue the record, but all of the other plates should remain hidden in the hill Shim (Mormon 1:1-5).

 

When the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, Mormon went to the hill Shim and removed all of the records that Ammaron had hid up to the Lord (Mormon 4:23). Although Mormon does not tell us where he moved the records to, it must have been to the hill Cumorah, which, as a military strategist, Mormon knew would be both a better place to keep the records and a better place to make a stand against the Lamanites. For when Mormon obtained permission from the king of the Lamanites to gather the Nephites into one place (Mormon 6:2-3), Mormon chose the land of Cumorah, in which the records were already hidden, and where he was in hope of gaining advantage over the Lamanites (Mormon 6:4). A small hill in New York was not that place.

 

Since I believe that Mormon had already deposited the records in Hill Cumorah prior to gathering the Nephites into the land of Cumorah, when he writes, after that gathering, that he "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni" (Mormon 6:6), I think that meant that he sealed off access to the records to all but Mormoni, who might need access later through a hidden secret entrance. That large collection of records is not hidden in a small hill in New York. Yet it would have to be there if it really was the Hill Cumorah in which Mormon hid up all of the records. That small hill in New York was simply the place where Moroni deposited the plates that Joseph Smith would later translate.

A little clarification- the plates werent already deposited in Cumorah at the time Mormon wrote his epistle to the Lamanite King. It wasnt until after all hia people wete gathered to the land od Cumorah that Mormon hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah.

[Calm]

 

 

 

Sorry missed this...the new post function misfunctioned for me again.

 

PS:  really hate how the quote function is functioning these days...

Edited September 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The Battle at Cumorah likely did not take plave on the hill itself. We know that the hill wad used as a means to view their conqured nation after the battle. We also know that the previous day Mormon lay woubded in the midst of his slain men that he wasnt killed. Then the next day Mormon views his dead from the top of the hill Cumorah. So either the batyle took place near the top or some distance up Cerro El Vigia or a wounded Mormon climbed the 1500 feet to its top. Both cases very unlikely especially when we know that Mormon camped at the base of the hill not on top of the hill.

This is a different argument than saying that Cerro El Vigia is not a hill, but a mountain which argument you were previously making.*****

 

Do you at least agree that it is okay to call anything called "Cerro" a hill?

 

******

I dont see Cerro el Vigia as a hill but rather a mount.

 

[prismsplay]

A little clarification- the plates werent already deposited in Cumorah at the time Mormon wrote his epistle to the Lamanite King. It wasnt until after all hia people wete gathered to the land od Cumorah that Mormon hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah.

 

Are you are expecting me to believe that Mormon took out the records from hill Shim and had all of them carried around until they were later hidden up? If that were the case, it would have been safer to leave them in the hill Shim until then. I believe they were immediately deposited in the hill Cumorah, the land of which had already been chosen for military advantage as well, prior to Mormon writing to the king of the Lamanites for permission to allowing the Nephites to gather in one there. While Mormon was writing his abridgment, there would have been guarded access to the cave in which the records were kept, but when Mormon "hid them up," the entrance that guards were familiar with would have been sealed, and the guards would no longer be needed. That Mormon consulted the records while making his abridgment is obvious, and, in fact, the small plates of Nephi he took from the collection in the cave and attached them to his abridgment. Once the cave was sealed, only the abridgment, the small plates of Nephi, and the sealed plates were outside the sealed cave and put in Moroni's possession to complete and take to New York to hide up in a small hill.

 

However, I think there may have been a secret entrance that only Moroni was told about. The reason why I think this is that Moroni summarized the 24 gold plates written by Ether, which were not put with the Book of Mormon plates. Therefore, Moroni must have been put them back in the cave through a secret entrance prior to taking the plates to the little hill in New York where Joseph Smith would obtain them for translating by the gift and power of God.

[Rob Osborn]

This is a different argument than saying that Cerro El Vigia is not a hill, but a mountain which argument you were previously making.*****

 

Do you at least agree that it is okay to call anything called "Cerro" a hill?

 

******

Its quite too large in my opinion to be a hill, especially the hill Cumorah. 1500 feet is quite an elevation to climb.