How To Identify A Nephite City.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Helaman38, do you own a different edition of the Book of Mormon to me or something because I've really no idea where you're getting it from.

On that basis: CFR.

This should be fairly straightforward. For each of the above please provide the BoM reference where you got your conclusions. Please be specific.

You mean like this little gem

 

"3. The Lamanites were aware of Nephite prophecies that said among other things the following:

 

a. The Nephites would become wicked.

 

b. They, the Lamanites, would on God's behalf destroy the Nephites.

 

c. Nephite records would come forth in latter times to their descendants."

 

I am not aware of any refrence for this in the Bom. Specifically that the Lamanites were aware of Nephite prophecies and then spells out specifically what they were aware of. I wager they were quit ignorant of it and didn't care about it even if they knew about them.  

Edited August 29, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Chronos]

That's what I thought. You're in the same camp and have no respect. It's not just Joseph, there are others. It's dishonest to say Joseph never identified the hill as Cumorah and if you are writing on that topic you damn well better cite his statements and then give us your spin; don't leave them out, that shows either dishonesty or incompetence, I'll let you decide.

 

If you would like others to be respectful, then you should be the first to show it. If you don't like someone's opinion or view that differs from yours, then you might want to rethink coming here. You can have a few days to think about it.

 

~The All-Powerful Chronos

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Defenders of the south of the border models like to obfuscate and lie about Joseph not identifying the hill in Palmyra as "Cumorah" for starters. Let's see if you grasp the significance of that....

It would be a natural assumption for Joseph to make that where he found the plates was "Cumorah". Once the translation was complete, I am not sure he could come to any other conclusion. However as time passed many began to note that where the final battle took place at ("Cumorah proper"), that Moroni was on the run for a very long time to avoid being killed and continuing to add to the BoM in his own book. The thing that so many forget in the heat of battle that often occurs in the Apologetics world, is that Joseph was a believer in the BoM. Reading from it shortly before what he knew was going to be his final hours. Joseph believed, Oliver, David, Martin and other witnesses who had the heavens opened to them and received a sure witness from God. Even though the "Three Witnesses" were all excommunicated, they remained true. Edited August 29, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[cursor]

Get a grip. I mean REALLY.

 

Note that the size of the hill "Cumorah" in Palmyra NY is about the same size as the LDS downtown complex referred to as Temple Square — consisting of about two city blocks. The height of that same hill is no more than that of the angel Moroni sculpture atop the temple (as compared to the surrounding terrain). What possible strategic advantage might such a puny hill offer? (Mormon 6:2-4) Consider the very REAL impracticality of a final battle between conflicting cultures, involving a quarter million Nephites (not to mention the charging Lamanites, which were clearly at least as numerous) on such a small plot of land:

 

Mormon, chapter 7

 

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, 

 

Let's see ... that's 23 leaders (please correct me if I'm wrong), each with 10,000 warriors = 230,000 ... + 200,000 dead Lamanites ... + all the surviving Lamanites ... + the "few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites."

How is it that all these folks fit on just 4 acres and duke it out to the death?

And, how is it that the final 24 Nephites escape detection in such intimate, close quarters?

 

Either the Book of Mormon is a fairy tale, or else the final battle (also for the Jaredites, at the hill Ramah ... same hill as Cumorah) happened at some alternative, more strategic location ... much closer to the narrow neck of land..

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Helaman38, do you own a different edition of the Book of Mormon to me or something because I've really no idea where you're getting it from.

On that basis: CFR.

This should be fairly straightforward. For each of the above please provide the BoM reference where you got your conclusions. Please be specific.

It must be the "board not to be named" bus drive by.

[cinepro]

It would be useful if you provided the references to support your claims because you may find that some of them are based on false assumptions.

 

Well, he did say it was for people who were unfamiliar with the Book of Mormon....

[canard78]

Get a grip. I mean REALLY.

Note that the size of the hill "Cumorah" in Palmyra NY is about the same size as the LDS downtown complex referred to as Temple Square — consisting of about two city blocks. The height of that same hill is no more than that of the angel Moroni sculpture atop the temple (as compared to the surrounding terrain). What possible strategic advantage might such a puny hill offer? (Mormon 6:2-4) Consider the very REAL impracticality of a final battle between conflicting cultures, involving a quarter million Nephites (not to mention the charging Lamanites, which were clearly at least as numerous) on such a small plot of land:

Mormon, chapter 7

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me,

Let's see ... that's 23 leaders (please correct me if I'm wrong), each with 10,000 warriors = 230,000 ... + 200,000 dead Lamanites ... + all the surviving Lamanites ... + the "few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites."

How is it that all these folks fit on just 4 acres and duke it out to the death?

And, how is it that the final 24 Nephites escape detection in such intimate, close quarters?

Either the Book of Mormon is a fairy tale, or else the final battle (also for the Jaredites, at the hill Ramah ... same hill as Cumorah) happened at some alternative, more strategic location ... much closer to the narrow neck of land..

We get a few posters for the palmyra model. I think helaman38 is a wind-up-merchant.

But to your point. If around half a million people died in one battle (assuming Lamanites had a similar number of fatalities) in 400CE, on the same location as a couple of million died in 600 or 700BCE, would it be reasonable to find evidence for that in your Dad's model? I know he's pinpointed a viable Zarahemla. Does the Book of Mormon contain enough internal geographic markers to pinpoint Cumorah? If so, would a dig there unearth evidence of a battle on those scales or would the humid climate had already claimed all of the evidence? I've pre-ordered his book, so perhaps I'll be able to read more there.

I've read from others that "his 10,000" was possibly just an expression. Like a Roman centurion was not always in charge of 100 men.

I'm trying to recall the Terry Pratchet character who says "1, 2, lots" (or maybe "1, 2, many"). A troll I think.

[Robert F. Smith]

We get a few posters for the palmyra model. I think helaman38 is a wind-up-merchant.

But to your point. If around half a million people died in one battle (assuming Lamanites had a similar number of fatalities) in 400CE, on the same location as a couple of million died in 600 or 700BCE, would it be reasonable to find evidence for that in your Dad's model? I know he's pinpointed a viable Zarahemla. Does the Book of Mormon contain enough internal geographic markers to pinpoint Cumorah? If so, would a dig there unearth evidence of a battle on those scales or would the humid climate had already claimed all of the evidence? I've pre-ordered his book, so perhaps I'll be able to read more there.

I've read from others that "his 10,000" was possibly just an expression. Like a Roman centurion was not always in charge of 100 men.

I'm trying to recall the Terry Pratchet character who says "1, 2, lots" (or maybe "1, 2, many"). A troll I think.

I think we can safely ignore the helamaniac, although it is possible that he has a new sock-puppet named "Tiki" over on another thread.

 

John Sorenson has indentified the Hill Cumorah with Cerro el Vigia, a mountain in the Tuxtlas range along the gulf coast, although that is merely a good suggestion.

 

The thing about a Mesoamerican location for the huge battles at Ramah-Cumorah is that it is the only region in which such large populations can be mobilized for war.  It has been estimated, for example, that, when the Conquistadores came, Mesoamerica had a population of around 12 million.  Archeological evidence of such battles would certainly include large quantities of obsidian or flint blades remaining after the deterioration of the wooden items used with them (spears, darts, axes, and other cutting instruments).

Edited August 30, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[rodheadlee]

Defenders of the south of the border models like to obfuscate and lie about Joseph not identifying the hill in Palmyra as "Cumorah" for starters. Let's see if you grasp the significance of that.... 

You have a standing CFR on this very statement on the Jaredite thread, post 81, I said please the first time. Put up or shut up.

 

Your exact words were "There you go yet again demonstrating your preference for the arm of flesh rather than prophets of God. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra, why do you refuse to believe as him?"

Edited August 30, 2013 by rodheadlee

[canard78]

I think we can safely ignore the helamaniac, although it is possible that he has a new sock-puppet named "Tiki" over on another thread.

John Sorenson has indentified the Hill Cumorah with Cerro el Vigia, a mountain in the Tuxtlas range along the gulf coast, although that is merely a good suggestion.

The thing about a Mesoamerican location for the huge battles at Ramah-Cumorah is that it is the only region in which such large populations can be mobilized for war. It has been estimated, for example, that, when the Conquistadores came, Mesoamerica had a population of around 12 million. Archeological evidence of such battles would certainly include large quantities of obsidian or flint blades remaining after the deterioration of the wooden items used with them (spears, darts, axes, and other cutting instruments).

Thanks. I'll look this one up when my Mormon codex arrives.

[ksfisher]

I've read from others that "his 10,000" was possibly just an expression. Like a Roman centurion was not always in charge of 100 men.

 

 

A Roman centurion typically commanded 80 men.  That is, if they were at full strength.  Military units seem to rarely be at full strength.  Men on leave, sick, AWOL, lack of replacements, lack of funds for replacements etc.

 

If a "10,000" was a Nephite military unit (say a modern division or heavy brigade) I would guess that by the time the time of the last battle that none of the 10,000's would be operating at full strength.  Many could be half or below.  230,000 seems too high for the number of Nephite soldiers in the last battle.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 100,000.

 

How many tons of food would an army of 100,000, or even 200,00, plus dependents need per day?

[morgan.deane]

A Roman centurion typically commanded 80 men.  That is, if they were at full strength.  Military units seem to rarely be at full strength.  Men on leave, sick, AWOL, lack of replacements, lack of funds for replacements etc.

 

If a "10,000" was a Nephite military unit (say a modern division or heavy brigade) I would guess that by the time the time of the last battle that none of the 10,000's would be operating at full strength.  Many could be half or below.  230,000 seems too high for the number of Nephite soldiers in the last battle.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 100,000.

 

How many tons of food would an army of 100,000, or even 200,00, plus dependents need per day?

 

 

These are good ideas. I talk about numbers in several places, but centurions is in this post: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/05/military-participation-ratio-and-wrong.html

 

And I don't think these people were eating very well.  I talk about logistics here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/07/eat-this-logistics-in-book-of-mormon.html

[cursor]

Thanks. I'll look this one up when my Mormon Codex arrives.

 

The tail-end of Chapter 3 of Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book, reads:

 

In the final stage of their retreat, all the identifiable Nephites assembled near the hill Cumorah, probably Cerro El Vigía in south-central Veracruz. They had already fled from previously settled areas, “taking all the inhabitants with them, both in towns and villages” (Mormon 4:22). All the groups not so gathered in “were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned” (5:5). Eventually the Nephites had nowhere left to retreat. They were very likely near the limit of their colonized zone (in Veracruz) from which they could hope to recruit more strength. Farther north were only non-Nephites, very probably, who would contest entry into their territory. Thus caught between two hard places, Mormon was out of military options. About ad 380 he negotiated with the Lamanite king (nothing more is said about the robbers) on the south to meet for a decisive battle in four years at the hill Cumorah (6:1–5). There the Nephites “had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites” (v. 4), perhaps because it was near Mormon’s childhood home and he knew the area intimately, or perhaps because the Lamanite supply lines were so extended. The schedule may have had some connection with a calendrical or astral date; it would have been about 400 years since the beginning of the Nephite era—that is, the time of the sign of Jesus Christ’s birth (3 Nephi 2:7– —and approaching 1,000 years since the extinction of the Jaredites at that very hill.

 

When all the remaining Nephites were “gathered in,” the numerically superior Lamanite horde waged battle. In a single day they exterminated all 23 units of the defenders (each nominally of 10,000 men). Only 24 stragglers survived the slaughter and gathered atop the hill Cumorah on the morning after the climactic battle. Two of the survivors were Mormon and Moroni2 (Mormon 6:11). Subsequently all of those 24 were slain except for Moroni2 (8:1–2).

 

In a brief entry in his father’s record, which Moroni2 made around ad 400 (Mormon 8:6), he reported that to his knowledge he was the lone survivor of his people. He went on: “The Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed” (v. . Clearly, all along the warfare had been about more than the genocide of the Nephites. No doubt complicated economic and political issues were yet unsettled, even after Mormon’s people had been rendered extinct.

 

Moroni2’s last entry in the Nephite record came at “more than four hundred and twenty years” (Moroni 10:1) into the Nephite era (i.e., approximately ad 420), shortly before he was ready to bury the record. We can only tentatively close the Conflict phase at ad 420. Warfare apparently continued after that among the remaining population.

 

It is vital to remember that the Nephite historians were recording selected events only in the limited geographical areas of concern to them. Because their account in no way denies that different areas had different histories, it would be easy to mistakenly extrapolate the events recorded in the Book of Mormon over too extensive an area.

 

In chapters 21 through 26, the culture history reviewed in this chapter will be considered in greater detail, and correspondences will be pointed out in the light of Mesoamerican archaeology.

 

__________

 

John L. Sorenson

Edited August 30, 2013 by cursor

[ksfisher]

Do we know when the e-version of the book will be available?

[cinepro]

These are good ideas. I talk about numbers in several places, but centurions is in this post: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/05/military-participation-ratio-and-wrong.html

 

And I don't think these people were eating very well.  I talk about logistics here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/07/eat-this-logistics-in-book-of-mormon.html

From your blog on logistics:

 

[1]This is my best representation of the argument. Arguments from critics often lack detailed reasoning, have poor grammar, and often simply want to score rhetorical points, to the point that I have to fill in the blanks the best that I can. Ironically, they still accuse me of being the brainwashed idiot.

 

Seriously?  If you're going to invoke the critic's claim as the impetus to your blog, why not just quote the critic?  If you're unclear on what he means or require more detail, why not ask him to clarify and explain? 

 

The info in your blog stands on its own as an interesting look at the application of logistics to the claims made in the Book of Mormon.  Including such a hamfisted swipe at an unreferenced and unnamed "critic" doesn't add anything.

[Gervin]

 

 

The tail-end of Chapter 3 of Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book, reads:

 

In the final stage of their retreat, all the identifiable Nephites assembled near the hill Cumorah, probably Cerro El Vigía in south-central Veracruz. They had already fled from previously settled areas, “taking all the inhabitants with them, both in towns and villages” (Mormon 4:22). All the groups not so gathered in “were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned” (5:5). Eventually the Nephites had nowhere left to retreat. They were very likely near the limit of their colonized zone (in Veracruz) from which they could hope to recruit more strength. Farther north were only non-Nephites, very probably, who would contest entry into their territory. Thus caught between two hard places, Mormon was out of military options. About ad 380 he negotiated with the Lamanite king (nothing more is said about the robbers) on the south to meet for a decisive battle in four years at the hill Cumorah (6:1–5). There the Nephites “had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites” (v. 4), perhaps because it was near Mormon’s childhood home and he knew the area intimately, or perhaps because the Lamanite supply lines were so extended. The schedule may have had some connection with a calendrical or astral date; it would have been about 400 years since the beginning of the Nephite era—that is, the time of the sign of Jesus Christ’s birth (3 Nephi 2:7– —and approaching 1,000 years since the extinction of the Jaredites at that very hill.

 

When all the remaining Nephites were “gathered in,” the numerically superior Lamanite horde waged battle. In a single day they exterminated all 23 units of the defenders (each nominally of 10,000 men). Only 24 stragglers survived the slaughter and gathered atop the hill Cumorah on the morning after the climactic battle. Two of the survivors were Mormon and Moroni2 (Mormon 6:11). Subsequently all of those 24 were slain except for Moroni2 (8:1–2).

 

In a brief entry in his father’s record, which Moroni2 made around ad 400 (Mormon 8:6), he reported that to his knowledge he was the lone survivor of his people. He went on: “The Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed” (v. . Clearly, all along the warfare had been about more than the genocide of the Nephites. No doubt complicated economic and political issues were yet unsettled, even after Mormon’s people had been rendered extinct.

 

Moroni2’s last entry in the Nephite record came at “more than four hundred and twenty years” (Moroni 10:1) into the Nephite era (i.e., approximately ad 420), shortly before he was ready to bury the record. We can only tentatively close the Conflict phase at ad 420. Warfare apparently continued after that among the remaining population.

 

It is vital to remember that the Nephite historians were recording selected events only in the limited geographical areas of concern to them. Because their account in no way denies that different areas had different histories, it would be easy to mistakenly extrapolate the events recorded in the Book of Mormon over too extensive an area.

 

In chapters 21 through 26, the culture history reviewed in this chapter will be considered in greater detail, and correspondences will be pointed out in the light of Mesoamerican archaeology.

 

__________

 

John L. Sorenson

 

(bold mine)

 

• I hope the later chapters have a correspondence for Veracruz (the location).  
• I wonder how long it takes to kill 230,00 persons in hand-to-hand engagement and how many must be on your side to inflict such a slaughter.
• The bolded phrase is vague - but better defined somewhere in the book, perhaps?

[cursor]

Do we know when the e-version of the book will be available?

 

Deseret Book & Maxwell Institute have publishing rights. I, nor my dad, have heard a word about publication schedule for a digital version. The fact that they have retained such rights, however, suggests that they have that intent.

Edited August 30, 2013 by cursor

[ksfisher]

 

 

• I wonder how long it takes to kill 230,00 persons in hand-to-hand engagement and how many must be on your side to inflict such a slaughter

 

The Romans lost 70,000+ at Cannae.  The battle lasted from dawn until it was too dark to continue fighting.  I could imagine the final Nephite battle lasting over several days, with the Nephites holding their position for the first couple before finally being overrun on the last.

[morgan.deane]

From your blog on logistics:

 

 

Seriously?  If you're going to invoke the critic's claim as the impetus to your blog, why not just quote the critic?  If you're unclear on what he means or require more detail, why not ask him to clarify and explain? 

 

The info in your blog stands on its own as an interesting look at the application of logistics to the claims made in the Book of Mormon.  Including such a hamfisted swipe at an unreferenced and unnamed "critic" doesn't add anything.

Yes seriously.  I can send you the link to the conversation, but seriously, his post was such a jumble of faulty assumptions and half baked analysis, on top of being at the tail end of a conversation about something else, and on top of the pointless bickering and fruitless effort that normally accompanies a discussion with critics, that I didn't bother trying to unravel his mess. It did get me thinking so about a week later or so I wrote a post about his central point. The frustration still perhaps lingered, so maybe it was a petty swipe.  Communicating love and being patient in a conversation is not my strong suit. It is something I work on which is one reason why I try not to get involved too much on discussion boards. Thanks for pointing it out to me. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by morgan.deane

[ksfisher]

Deseret Book & Maxwell Institute have publishing rights. I, nor my dad, have heard a word about publication schedule for a digital version. The fact that they have retained such rights, however, suggests that they have that intent.

Looking forward to reading the book.  I just have no more room for another paper book.  I've also fallen in love with being able to take my library with me anywhere.  It's great for when your sitting on the stand before a talk in sacrament meeting and a garbled version of the perfect quote for your talk comes into your head.

[morgan.deane]

The Romans lost 70,000+ at Cannae.  The battle lasted from dawn until it was too dark to continue fighting.  I could imagine the final Nephite battle lasting over several days, with the Nephites holding their position for the first couple before finally being overrun on the last.

This was the example I was going to use and same point too. 

[cursor]

BTW ... note that when quoting ANY post, it is usually best practice to UN-click the Enable emoticons option (on the right of the Post creation box, in the box labeled Post Options). If you don't, any characters like  ...which might be part of a scriptural reference, like: Mosiah 6:1- will annoyingly be displayed as a smilie/emoticon. For this post, I have Un-checked said box. =)

Edited August 30, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

Do we know when the e-version of the book will be available?

 

Note that my father and I will be independently publishing a digital (ebook) of reduced text (about 16% the size) that should serve as a great introduction to the full[er] text. It will be available in both English and Spanish (and perhaps in other languages). It will not include tables, maps, index, nor footnotes, however. It will be made available at JohnLSorenson.com in relatively short order.

Edited August 30, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

I wonder how long it takes to kill 230,00 persons in hand-to-hand engagement and how many must be on your side to inflict such a slaughter.

 

In the battle of Gettysburg, 100,000 soldiers were killed during September 1-3, 1863.

Of course, that involved cannons, rifles, and pistols.

[cursor]

I've read from others that "his 10,000" was possibly just an expression. Like a Roman centurion was not always in charge of 100 men.

 

I just got a response from my dad that addresses that specific question.

 

I asked:

In ancient Mesoamerica, was the number "ten thousand" a literal count of soldiers, or something else.

 

He says:

There is no way of knowing. Texts do not make clear, anymore than does the B of M.  Mormon 6: 10, says “my men were hewn down, even my ten thousand ....” Yet verse 12 refers to “the ten thousand of my people,” and verse 7 has “my people, with their wives and their children ....” Such expressions are ambiguous, as are the statements about Mesoamerican forces.

Edited August 30, 2013 by cursor