Tumbaga

[Dan Vogel]

In 1966, Reed Putnam suggested that the plates were made of an alloy of copper and gold, probably between 8 and 12 carats, with a 23-carat gilded surface—much like the ancient Mesoamerican alloy that the Spaniards called tumbaga. Reducing the weight of the plates by 50 percent, Putnam estimated that tumbaga plates would have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.^[1] While this has become the favored theory among apologists, it has problems.

 

The earliest tumbaga specimen—found in British Honduras and dating to the early classic period (that is, the fifth century C.E.), which is about the time Moroni allegedly buried the gold plates. However, harder to explain is Mormon’s inclusion of the so-called small plates of Nephi, which Nephi supposedly constructed a thousand years earlier.

 

Another problem is Tumbaga’s susceptibility to corrosion. Artifacts made of Tumbaga range from 97% copper to 97% gold, but those with higher copper content tend to corrode faster. This is due to the depletion method of creating the gilded surface, which involves oxidizing the copper with a solution of salt and citric acid and rubbing it off leaving only the gold. However, this leaves microscopic pits on the surface making it vulnerable to corrosion. The act of engraving on the surface would have also exposed the copper underneath, making the hypothesized plates extremely vulnerable to corrosion, and being placed in a stone box would not have prevented this process. This is further complicated by the fact that the plates didn’t go directly into this stone vault, but rather there was a lapse of about thirty-six years from when Mormon began engraving his plates (about 385 C.E.) and when his son Moroni buried them (about 421 C.E.), not to mention that Mormon inserted into his plates Nephi’s so-called small plates, which were then about a thousand years old. The shinny gold artifacts of Tumbaga seen in museums usually have been cleaned and chemically treated to prevent further erosion of the copper. This is problematic for Putnam’s theory since lighter plates of mostly copper content would have certainly corroded during their many years in the rain forests of Central America, long journey to the Great Lakes Region, and 1400-year deposit in the moist soil of western New York, and plates with higher gold content able to retain their “appearance of gold” would have been too heavy.

 

[1] Putnam, 831

 

If you are debating a theory or person use names.    A blanket use of apologist in academic debates will be considered a straw man on this board.

 

[helaman38]

 

In 1966...long journey to the Great Lakes Region, and 1400-year deposit in the moist soil of western New York, and plates with higher gold content able to retain their “appearance of gold” would have been too heavy.

 

Thank you for addressing that. I prefer the quote by Emma and  how she described the plates and how she could "rustle the edges" with her finger just like you would the pages of a book. The word "plates" unfortunately gave the reader visions of thick unpliable plates.

 

God, foreknowing there would be many records and that they would "speak from the ground" gave Nephi not only instructions on how to build a ship that could sail and a temple like unto Solomon's, but a great many other helps including thin leaves of gold, or what appeared to be gold.

 

As for the promulgated error that the events took place in the jungles of Mesoamerica and the record had to be transported clear to NY to make their silly theories work, that's nonsense. Moroni believed he would die with his people because that prophecy had always been around. No doubt when he went to battle "at the head" of his ten thousand, he secured the plates beforehand precisely in the hill where Joseph could find them and took but "a few plates" meaning one or two most likely, whatever would not slow him down in battle of course.

 

To think he lugged all those plates with him into battle is ludicrous.

 

The fact that his life was somehow preserved was a miracle and so he stayed near the depository for two reasons:

 

1. To protect them.

 

2. He knew that area better than the Lamanites did.

 

Just prior to sealing them up for their final time, he mentioned the Lamanites which is proof he stayed where they were. And besides all that, prophecy says they would come forth on Book of Mormon lands - where the promises were.

[halconero]

Thank you for addressing that. I prefer the quote by Emma and  how she described the plates and how she could "rustle the edges" with her finger just like you would the pages of a book. The word "plates" unfortunately gave the reader visions of thick unpliable plates.

 

God, foreknowing there would be many records and that they would "speak from the ground" gave Nephi not only instructions on how to build a ship that could sail and a temple like unto Solomon's, but a great many other helps including thin leaves of gold, or what appeared to be gold.

 

As for the promulgated error that the events took place in the jungles of Mesoamerica and the record had to be transported clear to NY to make their silly theories work, that's nonsense. Moroni believed he would die with his people because that prophecy had always been around. No doubt when he went to battle "at the head" of his ten thousand, he secured the plates beforehand precisely in the hill where Joseph could find them and took but "a few plates" meaning one or two most likely, whatever would not slow him down in battle of course.

 

To think he lugged all those plates with him into battle is ludicrous.

 

The fact that his life was somehow preserved was a miracle and so he stayed near the depository for two reasons:

 

1. To protect them.

 

2. He knew that area better than the Lamanites did.

 

Just prior to sealing them up for their final time, he mentioned the Lamanites which is proof he stayed where they were. And besides all that, prophecy says they would come forth on Book of Mormon lands - where the promises were.

 

How is the mention of the Lamanites proof that he stayed near them?

 

"And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life."

 

If he was wandering around to save his own life sticking around the Lamanite territories seems to be a very unwise move on Moroni's part.

 

Besides, if you believe him, Brigham Young once said that Moroni swung up through Manti at one point to dedicate the temple grounds there.

[helaman38]

How is the mention of the Lamanites proof that he stayed near them?

 

"And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life."

 

If he was wandering around to save his own life sticking around the Lamanite territories seems to be a very unwise move on Moroni's part.

 

Besides, if you believe him, Brigham Young once said that Moroni swung up through Manti at one point to dedicate the temple grounds there.

 

Remember, Book of Mormon lands were small, they were only 1.5 days wide and if Ether could observe all the doings of the Jaredites from an undisclosed location, so too could Moroni from the same exact location. Where did Moroni come up with additional plates when he said he ran out? He did not make more he found more where Ether hid them.

 

I do not believe Brigham that there were Gaddianton Robbers up and down the Wasatch Valley or that Moroni stepped foot in Manti. 

[Robert F. Smith]

 

If you are debating a theory or person use names.    A blanket use of apologist in academic debates will be considered a straw man on this board.

 

 

 

In 1966, Reed Putnam suggested that the plates were made of an alloy of copper and gold, probably between 8 and 12 carats, with a 23-carat gilded surface—much like the ancient Mesoamerican alloy that the spaniards called tumbaga. Reducing the weight of the plates by 50 percent, Putnam estimated that tumbaga plates would have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.  While this has become the favored theory among apologists, it has problems.

 

 

The earliest tumbaga specimen—found in British Honduras and dating to the early classic period (that is, the fifth century C.E.), which is about the time Moroni allegedly buried the gold plates. However, harder to explain is Mormon’s inclusion of the so-called small plates of Nephi, which Nephi supposedly constructed a thousand years earlier.Another problem is Tumbaga’s susceptibility to corrosion. Artifacts made of Tumbaga range from 97% copper to 97% gold, but those with higher copper content tend to corrode faster. This is due to the depletion method of creating the gilded surface, which involves oxidizing the copper with a solution of salt and citric acid and rubbing it off leaving only the gold. However, this leaves microscopic pits on the surface making it vulnerable to corrosion. The act of engraving on the surface would have also exposed the copper underneath, making the hypothesized plates extremely vulnerable to corrosion, and being placed in a stone box would not have prevented this process. This is further complicated by the fact that the plates didn’t go directly into this stone vault, but rather there was a lapse of about thirty-six years from when Mormon began engraving his plates (about 385 C.E.) and when his son Moroni buried them (about 421 C.E.), not to mention that Mormon inserted into his plates Nephi’s so-called small plates, which were then about a thousand years old. The shinny gold artifacts of Tumbaga seen in museums usually have been cleaned and chemically treated to prevent further erosion of the copper. This is problematic for Putnam’s theory since lighter plates of mostly copper content would have certainly corroded during their many years in the rain forests of Central America, long journey to the Great Lakes Region, and 1400-year deposit in the moist soil of western New York, and plates with higher gold content able to retain their “appearance of gold” would have been too heavy.

 

You're wrong on several counts here, Dan, not the least of which is your erroneous claim on the earliest appearance of tumbaga in the Americas.

 

I recommend that you take a look at Stuart J. Fleming (Scientific Director, MASCA), “Confounding the Conquistadors: Tumbaga’s Spurious Luster,” Expedition, 41/2 (1999), 6-7, online at http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/41-2/Science.pdf .

 

Fleming points out that, in pre-Columbian burials in Panama, he noted that some items of tumbaga were indeed corroded in just the way you suggest, while others were unaffected by corrosion.  Investigating more closely, he found that lack of corrosion depended upon the percentage of gold used in the alloy, as well as upon the depletion-gilding process which you describe.  He illustrates both surfaces prone to corrosion (which can be “self-healing”) as well as those unaffected.  Thus, a well made surface would be impervious to moisture and retain its luster.

 

If he were still around, a metal-smith like Reed Putnam might be able to tell us what this means in practical terms, but it is not so absurd as you seek to suggest.  After all, tumbaga is known to appear in the Americas as early as 500 B.C. in Peru – at a time when Peruvian cultures were trading with Central America.  It remains an excellent explanation for the type of plates used by Lehite scribes from Nephi to Mormon, as I summarized nearly thirty years ago in my “The ‘Golden’ Plates,” FARMS Update, October 1984, reprinted in John W. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon: The F.A.R.M.S. Updates (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 1992), 275-278; online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=847 . 

Edited August 27, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................   

As for the promulgated error that the events took place in the jungles of Mesoamerica and the record had to be transported clear to NY to make their silly theories work, that's nonsense. Moroni believed he would die with his people because that prophecy had always been around. No doubt when he went to battle "at the head" of his ten thousand, he secured the plates beforehand precisely in the hill where Joseph could find them and took but "a few plates" meaning one or two most likely, whatever would not slow him down in battle of course.

 

To think he lugged all those plates with him into battle is ludicrous.

 

The fact that his life was somehow preserved was a miracle and so he stayed near the depository for two reasons:

 

1. To protect them.

 

2. He knew that area better than the Lamanites did.

 

Just prior to sealing them up for their final time, he mentioned the Lamanites which is proof he stayed where they were. And besides all that, prophecy says they would come forth on Book of Mormon lands - where the promises were.

Most of this is a fantasy story and not even a reasonable conjecture at any level.

If you want to argue against the consensus position on these issues, I suggest that you at least cite your specific sources and make a coherent case.

[BCSpace]

Thank you for addressing that. I prefer the quote by Emma and  how she described the plates and how she could "rustle the edges" with her finger just like you would the pages of a book. The word "plates" unfortunately gave the reader visions of thick unpliable plates.

 

God, foreknowing there would be many records and that they would "speak from the ground" gave Nephi not only instructions on how to build a ship that could sail and a temple like unto Solomon's, but a great many other helps including thin leaves of gold, or what appeared to be gold.

 

As for the promulgated error that the events took place in the jungles of Mesoamerica and the record had to be transported clear to NY to make their silly theories work, that's nonsense. Moroni believed he would die with his people because that prophecy had always been around. No doubt when he went to battle "at the head" of his ten thousand, he secured the plates beforehand precisely in the hill where Joseph could find them and took but "a few plates" meaning one or two most likely, whatever would not slow him down in battle of course.

 

To think he lugged all those plates with him into battle is ludicrous.

 

 

The reason why some hold to a Mesoamerican LGT is because that's where the best evidence is for civilization as described in the BoM.  It's an LGT because travel times in the BoM seem to preclude a hemispheric model.  Now I'll be the first one to admit that no evidence for is not evidence against, but seeing as how there is no concrete evidence currently for the perceived type of civilization in the upstate New York/Great Lakes area, many look to Mesoamerica.

 

The fact that his life was somehow preserved was a miracle and so he stayed near the depository for two reasons:

 

1. To protect them.

 

2. He knew that area better than the Lamanites did.

 

Just prior to sealing them up for their final time, he mentioned the Lamanites which is proof he stayed where they were. And besides all that, prophecy says they would come forth on Book of Mormon lands - where the promises were.

 

Sure, it's not unreasonable.  But seeing as how the plates were reasonably light as you seem to imply, I think it also not unreasonable to suppose that, given the 35+ years between the last battle and Moroni's last words, Moroni took them from Cumorah in Mesoamerica and left them in Cumorah in NY perhaps knowing by revelation that's where JS would end up or simply going where the Lord directed him.  Perhaps the word "Cumorah" might mean something like "place of records" or something similar.

Edited August 27, 2013 by BCSpace

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

2. He knew that area better than the Lamanites did.

 

Just for kicks what was a Lamanite by the time Moroni came around in 400 ad? I think you have a very misunderstood notion of what a Lamanite was in 400 AD.

[mfbukowski]

 

In 1966, Reed Putnam suggested that the plates were made of an alloy of copper and gold, probably between 8 and 12 carats, with a 23-carat gilded surface—much like the ancient Mesoamerican alloy that the Spaniards called tumbaga. Reducing the weight of the plates by 50 percent, Putnam estimated that tumbaga plates would have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.^[1] While this has become the favored theory among apologists, it has problems.

 

The earliest tumbaga specimen—found in British Honduras and dating to the early classic period (that is, the fifth century C.E.), which is about the time Moroni allegedly buried the gold plates. However, harder to explain is Mormon’s inclusion of the so-called small plates of Nephi, which Nephi supposedly constructed a thousand years earlier.

 

Another problem is Tumbaga’s susceptibility to corrosion. Artifacts made of Tumbaga range from 97% copper to 97% gold, but those with higher copper content tend to corrode faster. This is due to the depletion method of creating the gilded surface, which involves oxidizing the copper with a solution of salt and citric acid and rubbing it off leaving only the gold. However, this leaves microscopic pits on the surface making it vulnerable to corrosion. The act of engraving on the surface would have also exposed the copper underneath, making the hypothesized plates extremely vulnerable to corrosion, and being placed in a stone box would not have prevented this process. This is further complicated by the fact that the plates didn’t go directly into this stone vault, but rather there was a lapse of about thirty-six years from when Mormon began engraving his plates (about 385 C.E.) and when his son Moroni buried them (about 421 C.E.), not to mention that Mormon inserted into his plates Nephi’s so-called small plates, which were then about a thousand years old. The shinny gold artifacts of Tumbaga seen in museums usually have been cleaned and chemically treated to prevent further erosion of the copper. This is problematic for Putnam’s theory since lighter plates of mostly copper content would have certainly corroded during their many years in the rain forests of Central America, long journey to the Great Lakes Region, and 1400-year deposit in the moist soil of western New York, and plates with higher gold content able to retain their “appearance of gold” would have been too heavy.

 

[1] Putnam, 831

 

If you are debating a theory or person use names.    A blanket use of apologist in academic debates will be considered a straw man on this board.

 

 

EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts assumes that archaeology proves religion true or false.

 

I have said it a million times and shown specifically how this is an error and you have never answered that issue.  Sigh.  I guess you will never get it.

 

Archaeology can never prove, for example, that the semi-legendary person Jesus of Nazareth died on a cross for MY sins but I know it's true, by personal revelation from God.

 

Let's suppose for a second that it never happened, though I don't believe that.

 

I actually don't care if it happened or not.  The point is that I know that some Great Intelligence outside me has given me peace in regard to the bad things I have done in my life, and that I should go on and forget about all that- my life has changed.

 

That is a phenomenological fact- that is something I have experienced which has changed my life.

 

Archaeology be hanged- who cares about that anyway?  It has nothing to do with it!

 

The story of Joseph is the same. 

 

What is taught in Mormonism is true in the same way that what is taught about the atonement is true, and archaeology has nothing to do with it.

 

It's not my fault that some people think that Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale and survived.  I am not going to spend my life proving them "wrong" when they are not wrong at all.  These are stories which communicate with our spirits and make our lives better and give us peace, much in the same way that science makes atheists think they know everything about everything and gives them peace and that everyone else is ignorant.

 

It's really pretty sad.

[helaman38]

Sure, it's not unreasonable.  But seeing as how the plates were reasonably light as you seem to imply...the word "Cumorah" might mean something like "place of records"...

 

Well, I must believe Joseph when he said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra and respect the work of Sorenson that the area was small and "limited" which brings me to western NY. Cumorah was not the main depository as was reported by David Whitmer.

 

Just for kicks what was a Lamanite by the time Moroni came around in 400 ad? I think you have a very misunderstood notion of what a Lamanite was in 400 AD.

 

Use your own definition but Moroni was referring to those Lamanites who wanted him dead. The Book of Mormon was to come forth ON Book of Mormon land.

[Ahab]

So what you call tumbaga is what they called ziff?    

 

Hmm.  That's an interesting theory.

[MAsh]

JS also noted: "The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them." (JS—H 1:52).

 

This might have helped keep the plates out of any dirt and moisture that may have entered the stone box (which might have been minimal already).

[Calm]

Another problem is Tumbaga’s susceptibility to corrosion. Artifacts made of Tumbaga range from 97% copper to 97% gold, but those with higher copper content tend to corrode faster.

 

So why not have the plates at a higher gold content?  What is the percentage of gold to copper likely to be if they were leaves of metal totally weighing somewhere between 40 and 60 lbs? [this was answered by a more careful reading of the opening post as well as the original article in the IE]

 

Also, my understanding is that after the etching, the plates are reheated and the gold that is left on the surface spreads out to cover it smoothly, wouldn't this remove some of the pitting and cut down on corrosion as well by sealing the copper within the plates?

Edited August 28, 2013 by calmoriah

[Ahab]

So why not have the plates at a higher gold content?  What is the percentage of gold to copper likely to be if they were leaves of metal totally weighing somewhere between 40 and 60 lbs?

 

Also, my understanding is that after the etching, the plates are reheated and the gold that is left on the surface spreads out to cover it smoothly, wouldn't this removing some of the pitting and cut down on corrosion as well by sealing the copper within the plates?

Hmm.  Didn't Nephi say something about the plates being hard to make?  What you describe sounds like a lot of work to me.

[Calm]

Hmm.  Didn't Nephi say something about the plates being hard to make?  What you describe sounds like a lot of work to me.

The original article in the Improvement Era as well as the couple of articles about tumbaga in the Maxwell Institute stuff are well worth reading and won't take long, especially the MI stuff, very short and to the point.

 

add-on:  corrected magazine's name, here is a link to the original article:

http://archive.org/stream/improvementera6909unse#page/n37/mode/2up

 

And to save you from having to turn a lot of pages, where it skips to:

 

http://archive.org/stream/improvementera6909unse#page/n77/mode/2up

 

and next page, though you can just click on the arrow in the right hand bottom as well:

 

http://archive.org/stream/improvementera6909unse#page/n79/mode/2up

 

The last link is were percentages are discussed though you will want to start reading a few paragraphs the previous page to cover the whole discussion if you don't read from the very beginning, it is well worth it, but the type is somewhat hard to read.

 

8-12 karat gold gives a range of 53-86 lbs. (as stated above in the OP) so 60 lbs which is what William Smith described as the weight is probably around 9 karat.

 

Putman also suggests that the Small Plates may have been of a different material, if so the fact they were much older doesn't become an issue.  

Edited August 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Putman also suggest a different method than the depletion method for gilding, using powdered gold and mercury and then beating to spread the gold and disperse the mercury and I am wondering how that would affect corrosion rates since it doesn't sound like that would result in pitting.

 

Bottomline of course is if the Lord wanted them to stay bright and intact, then I am sure he could have arranged it, teaching Moroni or Mormon a method to achieve preservation just as he taught Nephi how to build a boat and likely directed Moroni where to bury the plates so they were within retrieval distance of Joseph's home ....but it is interesting to speculate how it might have been done without any extra intervention.

Edited August 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Maybe Joseph just made some plates, to prove the inspirational story was from God.

[guerreiro9]

Maybe Joseph just made some plates, to prove the inspirational story was from God.

 

Hello Tacenda,

 

I have read a number of your posts on this forum and if I understand you correctly you are an active member of the Church, but are struggling with a number of issues related to Church history.  Would that be an accurate assessment?

 

I don't usually like to make my posts personal, and if I step over the line please disregard this entirely, but I have noticed that no matter the issue you always choose to view the Church in the worst possible light.

 

If you are trying to have a relationship with someone (a spouse, a friend, a family member, an organization), it will destroy that relationship if you view everything associated with them in a negative light.  If you are trying to reconcile with a spouse you cannot distrust everything they say, speak bad of them to your acquaintances, and assume everything they say is a lie.  If you do then your marriage will be over quickly.  Even if you do distrust them, if you want the relationship to work you have to swallow your pride and allow yourself to trust them hoping that your trust will continue to be rewarded.

 

It all depends on what you want, if you want the Church to be true then you have to be willing to accept that not everything it teaches about its history is a lie.  If you don't want it to be true then you can continue on as you are.

 

So which would you like to be true Tacenda, that Joseph just made some plates to deceive others, or that Joseph received the plates from an angel.  It can't be proven either way, the choice is entirely up to you.

 

-guerreiro9

[Dan Vogel]

Robert,

 

Thanks for the response.

  recommend that you take a look at Stuart J. Fleming (Scientific Director, MASCA), “Confounding the Conquistadors: Tumbaga’s Spurious Luster,” Expedition, 41/2 (1999), 6-7, online at http://www.penn.muse...1-2/Science.pdf .

 

Fleming points out that, in pre-Columbian burials in Panama, he noted that some items of tumbaga were indeed corroded in just the way you suggest, while others were unaffected by corrosion.  Investigating more closely, he found that lack of corrosion depended upon the percentage of gold used in the alloy, as well as upon the depletion-gilding process which you describe.  He illustrates both surfaces prone to corrosion (which can be “self-healing”) as well as those unaffected.  Thus, a well made surface would be impervious to moisture and retain its luster.

 

 

Yes, the high gold content Tumbaga would be self-healing, but what about high copper plates with heavy etching?

 

 

If he were still around, a metal-smith like Reed Putnam might be able to tell us what this means in practical terms, but it is not so absurd as you seek to suggest.  After all, tumbaga is known to appear in the Americas as early as 500 B.C. in Peru – at a time when Peruvian cultures were trading with Central America.  It remains an excellent explanation for the type of plates used by Lehite scribes from Nephi to Mormon, as I summarized nearly thirty years ago in my “The ‘Golden’ Plates,” FARMS Update, October 1984, reprinted in John W. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon: The F.A.R.M.S. Updates (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 1992), 275-278; online at http://maxwellinstit...d=71&chapid=847 . 

 

 

I didn’t find anyone arguing for Tumbaga in Peru at 500 B.C. Yet, as far as you know, there are no Tumbaga artifacts dating before the 5^th Century A.D. in Central America?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Dan Vogel

[Tacenda]

Hello Tacenda,

I have read a number of your posts on this forum and if I understand you correctly you are an active member of the Church, but are struggling with a number of issues related to Church history. Would that be an accurate assessment?

I don't usually like to make my posts personal, and if I step over the line please disregard this entirely, but I have noticed that no matter the issue you always choose to view the Church in the worst possible light.

If you are trying to have a relationship with someone (a spouse, a friend, a family member, an organization), it will destroy that relationship if you view everything associated with them in a negative light. If you are trying to reconcile with a spouse you cannot distrust everything they say, speak bad of them to your acquaintances, and assume everything they say is a lie. If you do then your marriage will be over quickly. Even if you do distrust them, if you want the relationship to work you have to swallow your pride and allow yourself to trust them hoping that your trust will continue to be rewarded.

It all depends on what you want, if you want the Church to be true then you have to be willing to accept that not everything it teaches about its history is a lie. If you don't want it to be true then you can continue on as you are.

So which would you like to be true Tacenda, that Joseph just made some plates to deceive others, or that Joseph received the plates from an angel. It can't be proven either way, the choice is entirely up to you.

-guerreiro9

I'm just looking at it coming from a place that if the plates weren't even used when translating, head in the hat, maybe JS needed the prop to substantiate his revelation from God. So I'm not saying he wasn't inspired. Since now it seems, according to the new headings in our scriptures, that the BoA was also inspired. Or do I have that wrong?

[guerreiro9]

I'm just looking at it coming from a place that if the plates weren't even used when translating, head in the hat, maybe JS needed the prop to substantiate his revelation from God. So I'm not saying he wasn't inspired. Since now it seems, according to the new headings in our scriptures, that the BoA was also inspired. Or do I have that wrong?

 

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning.  Are you saying that you believe Joseph was inspired to produce the translation of the Book of Mormon, but lied about receiving the plates from Moroni, and fabricated plates himself which he showed to the witnesses (while pretending to be an angel) to substantiate the translation?

 

I'm not sure I see any sense in this.  I think it is also a little misleading to say the plates weren't even used during the translation.  They most certainly were used in the beginning of the translation (according to the surviving written descriptions), and their physical existence most certainly increased Joseph faith that he was indeed translating an ancient record.

 

Would you mind explaining further (if possible, I know you are allotted a limited number of posts),  I am not sure I follow what you are saying.

 

-guerreiro9

 

p.s.

sorry to derail the thread this can be taken elsewhere if Tacenda would like to describe her theory in more detail.

Edited August 28, 2013 by guerreiro9

[BCSpace]

Well, I must believe Joseph when he said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra and respect the work of Sorenson that the area was small and "limited"

 

I don't think you can do both at the same time as Sorenson's LGT is in Mesoamerica.  Since LDS doctrine now accepts the possibility of a Mesoamerican LGT, then two Cumorahs is on the table.

[Tacenda]

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning. Are you saying that you believe Joseph was inspired to produce the translation of the Book of Mormon, but lied about receiving the plates from Moroni, and fabricated plates himself which he showed to the witnesses (while pretending to be an angel) to substantiate the translation?

I'm not sure I see any sense in this. I think it is also a little misleading to say the plates weren't even used during the translation. They most certainly were used in the beginning of the translation (according to the surviving written descriptions), and their physical existence most certainly increased Joseph faith that he was indeed translating an ancient record.

Would you mind explaining further (if possible, I know you are allotted a limited number of posts), I am not sure I follow what you are saying.

-guerreiro9

p.s.

sorry to derail the thread this can be taken elsewhere if Tacenda would like to describe her theory in more detail.

Thanks for your interest. I guess I'm grasping to believe it. And since learning of the different scenarios of translating the BoM, I lost some belief. And things just keep piling on. The thought that Joseph hefted plates that probably weighed enough that it is hard to believe he carried them when he ran from those that wanted them. In my memory he ran through the woods near his home. And why would they need to be covered all the time, with Emma not being able to see them along with everyone else. The witnesses hefted them but they were in a container of some sort. And some accounts say they were seen with visionary eyes, or something like that. Plus, the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't need to get sent back, why did the plates? So I think the way I hold onto belief is that he was inspired. And the way the church is organized can be a witness to me also.

[volgadon]

 

Plus, the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't need to get sent back, why did the plates? So I think the way I hold onto belief is that he was inspired.

 

How old are the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[mfbukowski]

How old are the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Actually I remember writing some of them in my youth, but that was definitely a while back.