Tumbaga

[volgadon]

Actually I remember writing some of them in my youth, but that was definitely a while back.

 

I'm not sure that the DSS are that old.

[Ahab]

Thanks for your interest. I guess I'm grasping to believe it. And since learning of the different scenarios of translating the BoM, I lost some belief. And things just keep piling on. The thought that Joseph hefted plates that probably weighed enough that it is hard to believe he carried them when he ran from those that wanted them. In my memory he ran through the woods near his home. And why would they need to be covered all the time, with Emma not being able to see them along with everyone else. The witnesses hefted them but they were in a container of some sort. And some accounts say they were seen with visionary eyes, or something like that. Plus, the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't need to get sent back, why did the plates? So I think the way I hold onto belief is that he was inspired. And the way the church is organized can be a witness to me also.

I empathize with you, thinking about how I put the pieces of the puzzle together myself.  Sometimes it does cause us to  scratch our heads and conjecture a little when trying to see how every little detail fits together into one cohesive story.  But even though I don't know ALL of the details I still know the basic story line is true.  Joseph did get some old records from Moroni, and those records were a history of a people who lived in America a long time ago, way back even before we started calling the land America.

[Sevenbak]

The witnesses hefted them but they were in a container of some sort. And some accounts say they were seen with visionary eyes, or something like that. 

What is your reference to the plates being in a container of some sort when the witnesses saw them?  They did more than heft them.  There are multiple accounts of them turning the pages, even describing the characters, thickness, black stain being in the grooves for easier viewing, rings being different metal than the plates, columns of characters, reading order, etc, etc.

 

The 3 witnesses handled the plates themselves personally, but even the 8 witnesses, who didn't, describe the characters in their official published testimony.  How could any of them do that if they were in a container?

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure that the DSS are that old.

[Calm]

 

Also, my understanding is that after the etching, the plates are reheated and the gold that is left on the surface spreads out to cover it smoothly, wouldn't this remove some of the pitting and cut down on corrosion as well by sealing the copper within the plates?

I was hoping Mr. Vogel would have addressed this question at least....

Edited August 28, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

What is your reference to the plates being in a container of some sort when the witnesses saw them?  They did more than heft them.  There are multiple accounts of them turning the pages, even describing the characters, thickness, black stain being in the grooves for easier viewing, rings being different metal than the plates, columns of characters, reading order, etc, etc.

 

The 3 witnesses handled the plates themselves personally, but even the 8 witnesses, who didn't, describe the characters in their official published testimony.  How could any of them do that if they were in a container?

• Using calculations to arrive at the plates is unnecessary as many of the witnesses have given their estimates as to the weight of the plates by lifting the container that held the plates which several people claim to have done.
• Joseph's brother William:  "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. ... Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family." (Zion's Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894).
• "I was permitted to lift them... . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[8] -William Smith   William Smith, William Smith on Mormonism (Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Steam, 1883), 12.

 

http://mormoncanon.com/articles/Weight-of-the-Gold-Plates

 

 

I guess I hadn't studied enough to know of the accounts you alluded to.  But here is a site with the above being mentioned.  I did hear from a critic it was a container that held the plates that were hefted. But see from this site, that they were seen.  I thought before that they were only seen with spiritual eyes.  And maybe this is up for debate, or not.  My apologies if I got that wrong.    

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

 

60 lbs for a strong young man that did hard manual labor on a farm of the early 19th Century isn't all that heavy.

 

See the testimony of the three and the eight witnesses.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng

[guerreiro9]

Tacenda:

 

60 lbs for a strong young man that did hard manual labor on a farm of the early 19th Century isn't all that heavy.

 

 

When I was 21 years old and in college I took a swing shift job at a loading dock.  Aside from driving a fork lift the vast majority of my time was spent moving 50 lbs bags of cement.  I was in relatively good shape back then, but I have never been considered a large man, and am of only average build.  I have also spent a large portion of my life engaged in activities that decidedly do not build muscle mass.  The work was extremely hard, and I definitely earned my money.  In the beginning I could carry 50 lbs bags ok, but I was slow and had a hard time throwing them where they needed to go.  By the end I was throwing around 50 lbs bags like they were nothing and would grab one under each arm and run them from one place to another.  I never did throw 2 bags out once, but a lot of my co-workers did.

 

When Joseph Smith received the plates from Moroni he was 21 years old.  He had lived a life of back breaking labor as a farm hand.  He was also considered a large man in terms of height and stature.  He would have thrown around 50 - 60 lbs like most of us handle a bowling ball.  This criticism  needs to end, he probably would have been able to run carrying 100 lbs or more.

 

Incidentally there is a form a competition held in the army called a ruck run.  They load up their packs with 50 lbs of gear and run 18 miles.

 

-guerreiro9

 

[thesometimesaint]

When I was 21 years old and in college I took a swing shift job at a loading dock.  Aside from driving a fork lift the vast majority of my time was spent moving 50 lbs bags of cement.  I was in relatively good shape back then, but I have never been considered a large man, and am of only average build.  I have also spent a large portion of my life engaged in activities that decidedly do not build muscle mass.  The work was extremely hard, and I definitely earned my money.  In the beginning I could carry 50 lbs bags ok, but I was slow and had a hard time throwing them where they needed to go.  By the end I was throwing around 50 lbs bags like they were nothing and would grab one under each arm and run them from one place to another.  I never did throw 2 bags out once, but a lot of my co-workers did.

 

When Joseph Smith received the plates from Moroni he was 21 years old.  He had lived a life of back breaking labor as a farm hand.  He was also considered a large man in terms of height and stature.  He would have thrown around 50 - 60 lbs like most of us handle a bowling ball.  This criticism  needs to end, he probably would have been able to run carrying 100 lbs or more.

 

Incidentally there is a form a competition held in the army called a ruck run.  They load up their packs with 50 lbs of gear and run 18 miles.

 

-guerreiro9

 

 

There is a reason God invented power tools.

[Robert F. Smith]

 

 

 

......................... The thought that Joseph hefted plates that probably weighed enough that it is hard to believe he carried them when he ran from those that wanted them. In my memory he ran through the woods near his home.

Correct.  He went back into the woods to retrieve them 10 days after digging them up on Sept 22, 1827.  He had hid them in a hollow log.  Apparently some person or persons followed and chased him.  I picture in my mind a very large young man (Joseph) like a great running back in a football game, dodging those trying to stop him and steal the plates.  He had the plates wrapped in a smock, carrying them under one arm as he ran.  They weighed about 50 - 60 lbs.  There is nothing unbelievable about that scenario.

 

 

 

And why would they need to be covered all the time, with Emma not being able to see them along with everyone else.

Emma and all the others were not permitted to look upon the plates, even though Emma said that she thumbed the pages or leaves through their muslin covering, and moved them around when she was working.  Only the 8 witnesses actually got to heft and touch the plates, with no container or covering.

 

 

 

The witnesses hefted them but they were in a container of some sort. And some accounts say they were seen with visionary eyes, or something like that. Plus, the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't need to get sent back, why did the plates? .............................................................................................

The account of the 11 witnesses is in every Book of Mormon.  Only three of them said that they saw "the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon."

If you want to call that a vision, fine.

The 8 witnesses stated that Joseph showed them "the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, . . ."

This was most certainly not an angelic vision, but simply Joseph letting them handle the real thing.

The plates and Nephite interpreters were taken back by an angel as punishment when Joseph and Martin lost the infamous 116 pages of translated text.  Thereafter Joseph translated using his seerstone in his hat.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Dan Vogel]

I was hoping Mr. Vogel would have addressed this question at least....

I don't see this as feasible for the engravings, but perhaps for the pitting.

[De Groote]

I wrote a few articles about some of this topic back when I wrote for Mormon Times:

 

How gold were the golden plates?

 

Taking golden plates and running

 

They were written for a general Mormon audience, but in the first one, I wrote this: "William Smith also said the plates were 'a mixture of gold and copper' — the precise alloy that Putnam found was used by ancient Americans."

 

So apparently William Smith read Putnam's article. 

[Vookman]

We have a second hand reference to Joseph Smith, Sr telling a visitor he weighed the plates, and they weighed 30 lbs.

 

When Joseph Smith arrived at home with the plates, he allowed everyone in the room to hold the plates and reach into the frock covering them to feel the plates.  This included his younger siblings.  Later he handed the plates to his young siblings, who put them in their bed with them and hid them from men who entered the home to search for the plates.

 

Joseph is reported to have requested the box to hold the plates be capable of holding at least 40 lbs.  You don't build something to hold 40 lbs if they weigh 60 lbs.

 

Hat tip to Dan Vogel's "Early Mormon Documents" for containing these references.

 

I did a test in my Sunday School classes where I take in a 30 lb barbell, wrapped in a pillow case, and then had the 25 or so kids heft and secrectly write down the weight of the "plates".  The weight estimates ranged from 22 to 60 lbs., averaging about 35 lbs.  Now look back to 1828 Palmyra.  No one had a bathroom scale.  Performing actual measured weighings was not common like it is today, and getting weight ranges from 30-60 lbs is not particularly suprising.

 

Lastly, the specific mixture and properties of the plates is not known, and making assertions about what the plates "must" have been like is a fools errand in my view.  It assumes we know everything or, at least, enough to cast doubt on something which has only one viable explanation, and that is Joseph Smith's.  The plates existed in 1827 when more than a dozen witnesses handled the plates while in the frock, several of which later became members of the Eight Witnesses.  It would require us to think that people who handled the plates in 1827 were part of a conspiracy.  It requires Joseph to be a master metalurgist and blacksmith, or to have found such and those crafts people to have remained silent and complicit, not even mentioning it to their close family or friends, and so to be lost to history.  It also requires one to believe Joseph and Oliver Cowdrey would rather starve to death than to take some of the metal, even if common tin, to a town to melt down for sale and to buy food.  It also requires the Smith family to rather give Joseph their money to obtain the raw materials for the plates, based on a plan he comes up with in 1823, while a 17 year old kid, hoping that in several years they might make some money, and in the mean time lose their home, and Joseph to willingly standby and watch the family suffering, specifically tricking his older, hero brother Alvin on his death bed into believing the fraud.  Such cruelty is completely out of character from what is described about the young Joseph Smith.

 

Tumbaga is a great potential solution, but it is not the only solution, and none of them may be the right solution.  William Smith's comment, without any context or knowledge of Tumbaga, that the plates were a mixture of copper and gold, begs the question, "How did he know?"  While William was seemingly willing to speculate on some things, he appears to be providing a solution to a problem which did not exist in his day, nor which he could reasonably be expected to anticipate to come forward at a future date.

 

I am reminded of the strident argument of the Greek word in the Epistle to the Hebrews 7:24, "unchangeable" (gk 'aparabatos'), and how it was thought for many years to mean the Melchizedek priesthood was untransferable.  Check out Strongs G531.  Turns out upon newer text discoveries that it actually means "permanent, unchangeable" (Bauer, BDAG, page 97, published in 2000), and the untransferable meaning still found in so many older Lexicons (Thayer's, Smith's, Strong's) is not sustainable.  Yet I still get people who literally tell me they could never be a Mormon because the Melchizedek priesthood ended with Christ.

 

We don't know does not mean it can't be true.

[Robert F. Smith]

We have a second hand reference to Joseph Smith, Sr telling a visitor he weighed the plates, and they weighed 30 lbs.

 

When Joseph Smith arrived at home with the plates, he allowed everyone in the room to hold the plates and reach into the frock covering them to feel the plates.  This included his younger siblings.  Later he handed the plates to his young siblings, who put them in their bed with them and hid them from men who entered the home to search for the plates.

 

Joseph is reported to have requested the box to hold the plates be capable of holding at least 40 lbs.  You don't build something to hold 40 lbs if they weigh 60 lbs.

 

Hat tip to Dan Vogel's "Early Mormon Documents" for containing these references.

 

I did a test in my Sunday School classes where I take in a 30 lb barbell, wrapped in a pillow case, and then had the 25 or so kids heft and secrectly write down the weight of the "plates".  The weight estimates ranged from 22 to 60 lbs., averaging about 35 lbs.  Now look back to 1828 Palmyra.  No one had a bathroom scale.  Performing actual measured weighings was not common like it is today, and getting weight ranges from 30-60 lbs is not particularly suprising.

 

Lastly, the specific mixture and properties of the plates is not known, and making assertions about what the plates "must" have been like is a fools errand in my view.  It assumes we know everything or, at least, enough to cast doubt on something which has only one viable explanation, and that is Joseph Smith's.  The plates existed in 1827 when more than a dozen witnesses handled the plates while in the frock, several of which later became members of the Eight Witnesses.  It would require us to think that people who handled the plates in 1827 were part of a conspiracy.  It requires Joseph to be a master metalurgist and blacksmith, or to have found such and those crafts people to have remained silent and complicit, not even mentioning it to their close family or friends, and so to be lost to history.  It also requires one to believe Joseph and Oliver Cowdrey would rather starve to death than to take some of the metal, even if common tin, to a town to melt down for sale and to buy food.  It also requires the Smith family to rather give Joseph their money to obtain the raw materials for the plates, based on a plan he comes up with in 1823, while a 17 year old kid, hoping that in several years they might make some money, and in the mean time lose their home, and Joseph to willingly standby and watch the family suffering, specifically tricking his older, hero brother Alvin on his death bed into believing the fraud.  Such cruelty is completely out of character from what is described about the young Joseph Smith.

..............................................   

All excellent points, so thanks.