Ssa And Recognizing Marriages

[california boy]

According to all scripture as a whole, he will remain separate and single throughout eternity.  It matters not what we want or do not want.  Doctrine and Covenants 132 clearly states "a man" and "a wife" and "he marry her," etc.  Pretty clear in light of that that any attachment formed in this life between man and man, or between woman and woman, is forever temporary.

 

Add to that the clear statements of scripture in the New Testament about homosexuality being in the list of things that keep people out of the kingdom of God, Jesus' very clear teaching about what kind of marriage is acceptable to God (male and female together, and no other), and the stated purpose of marriage in the scriptures as a whole, and we can be fairly certain that there never will be homosexual relationships solemnized in temples of the Most High.

 

They would have to rewrite all the scriptures, like people are trying to rewrite the dictionary and set on its head thousands of years of tradition, in order to make allowance for that to happen.  There could be no way for men on men and female on female relationships ever to be like heavenly Father and heavenly Mother, and no way for them to be "heirs together of the grace of life" as with man and woman.  We'd have to jettison that teaching, too, as well as that bit about God's work being "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

 

I just don't see it happening...ever.

So your view is that all of God's gay children are eternally damned to be single forever?  

[rockpond]

According to all scripture as a whole, he will remain separate and single throughout eternity.  It matters not what we want or do not want.  Doctrine and Covenants 132 clearly states "a man" and "a wife" and "he marry her," etc.  Pretty clear in light of that that any attachment formed in this life between man and man, or between woman and woman, is forever temporary.

 

Add to that the clear statements of scripture in the New Testament about homosexuality being in the list of things that keep people out of the kingdom of God, Jesus' very clear teaching about what kind of marriage is acceptable to God (male and female together, and no other), and the stated purpose of marriage in the scriptures as a whole, and we can be fairly certain that there never will be homosexual relationships solemnized in temples of the Most High.

 

They would have to rewrite all the scriptures, like people are trying to rewrite the dictionary and set on its head thousands of years of tradition, in order to make allowance for that to happen.  There could be no way for men on men and female on female relationships ever to be like heavenly Father and heavenly Mother, and no way for them to be "heirs together of the grace of life" as with man and woman.  We'd have to jettison that teaching, too, as well as that bit about God's work being "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

 

I just don't see it happening...ever.

 

Of course, we've had some of those "absolute" statements in the past that were wrong.  But you would be in good company...

 

 

“But, for the information of those who may be assailed by these foolish tales about two wives, we would say that no such principle ever existed among the Latter-day Saints, and never will... the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants; and also all our periodicals are very strict on that subject, indeed for more so than the Bible.” --Millennial Star, v. 3, p. 74

 

Brigham Young:  “’Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?’ If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted.” --Deseret News, October 10, 1866

 

Brigham Young:  " Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood." --JoD, Vol.7, Pg.290-291

 

Brigham Young:  “Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it. ‘And is that religion popular in heaven?’ It is the only popular religion there...” --Deseret News, Aug 6, 1862

 

"It is true that the negro race is barred from holding the Priesthood, and this has always been the case. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught this doctrine, and it was made known to him, although we know of no such statement in any revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, or the Bible." --Improvement Era

 

Brigham Young:  "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."  --JoD, 10:110

 

And just for fun, this "famous" one...

 

Joseph Fielding Smith:  "We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen." --May 14, 1961 Stake Conf in Honolulu

[Tacenda]

I feel like I might be interrupting a conversion, so please forgive my popping in like this. Something struck me while reading a post in Introductions on the Staylds forum. In the post they mention that they found out their son is gay. It hit me, it seems there are so many that are gay. It's not people coming out of the closet but young people that are finding out they are gay. Some quite young, maybe 9 or so. Every other family has a member in their family or extended family, that is gay. Is our HF sending or creating spirits that are gay for a reason? I think we have far more than ever in history. And I absolutely don't think it's all about sexual experimentation, though I'm sure that happens.

[thesometimesaint]

Unless of course, the unattached male is gay.  Then we want him to remain unattached.  Right?

 

I don't make broad generalizations directed at individuals. Sociologically single men(as a group) are the most dangerous whether they be gay or streight. Single streight men in a committed long term relationship do about as well as single gay men in a committed long term relationship.

[Damien the Leper]

I don't make broad generalizations directed at individuals. Sociologically single men(as a group) are the most dangerous whether they be gay or streight. Single streight men in a committed long term relationship do about as well as single gay men in a committed long term relationship.

Please clarify what you're saying exactly and CFR.

[thesometimesaint]

I feel like I might be interrupting a conversion, so please forgive my popping in like this. Something struck me while reading a post in Introductions on the Staylds forum. In the post they mention that they found out their son is gay. It hit me, it seems there are so many that are gay. It's not people coming out of the closet but young people that are finding out they are gay. Some quite young, maybe 9 or so. Every other family has a member in their family or extended family, that is gay. Is our HF sending or creating spirits that are gay for a reason? I think we have far more than ever in history. And I absolutely don't think it's all about sexual experimentation, though I'm sure that happens.

 

The evidence so far is that sexual preference is established very early in life. Maybe as young as 2-3 years old. We don't know the factors for the preference. My personal thoughts on it are that it is a combination of environmental, and genetic factors. But what those factors are I don't know.

[thesometimesaint]

Please clarify what you're saying exactly and CFR.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pji02.pdf

 

http://menshealth.org/code/KEY-DTR.pdf

[Calm]

I feel like I might be interrupting a conversion, so please forgive my popping in like this. Something struck me while reading a post in Introductions on the Staylds forum. In the post they mention that they found out their son is gay. It hit me, it seems there are so many that are gay. It's not people coming out of the closet but young people that are finding out they are gay. Some quite young, maybe 9 or so. Every other family has a member in their family or extended family, that is gay. Is our HF sending or creating spirits that are gay for a reason? I think we have far more than ever in history. And I absolutely don't think it's all about sexual experimentation, though I'm sure that happens.

I don't know of any studies that indicates that actual orientation percentages have changed over the past decades.  If 2% of the population has homosexual tendencies, that one out of every 50 people you know and if a ward is 250 actives, than that is possibly 5 individuals (assuming that the ratio is the same for LDS and isn't lower due to practicing homosexuals leaving the faith).

 

While it is possible that numbers are rising due to those who have more flexible orientation tendencies considering homosexuality as a livable proposition in contrast to the past, it is also possible it is simply the more visible presence.  People don't hide if they are active gays as they used to, they have become a pretty constant presence on in the media, both in entertainment and news.  Schools promote GBLT clubs and such.

[rockpond]

I don't know of any studies that indicates that actual orientation percentages have changed over the past decades.  If 2% of the population has homosexual tendencies, that one out of every 50 people you know and if a ward is 250 actives, than that is possibly 5 individuals (assuming that the ratio is the same for LDS and isn't lower due to practicing homosexuals leaving the faith).

 

While it is possible that numbers are rising due to those who have more flexible orientation tendencies considering homosexuality as a livable proposition in contrast to the past, it is also possible it is simply the more visible presence.  People don't hide if they are active gays as they used to, they have become a pretty constant presence on in the media, both in entertainment and news.  Schools promote GBLT clubs and such.

 

I agree with Calmoriah... I think an ever increasing percentage of the population feel less of an inclination to hide or "closet" their homosexuality and that of their loved ones.

 

I think that's a good thing but I suspect (respectfully) that some here might disagree.

[california boy]

I don't know of any studies that indicates that actual orientation percentages have changed over the past decades.  If 2% of the population has homosexual tendencies, that one out of every 50 people you know and if a ward is 250 actives, than that is possibly 5 individuals (assuming that the ratio is the same for LDS and isn't lower due to practicing homosexuals leaving the faith).

 

While it is possible that numbers are rising due to those who have more flexible orientation tendencies considering homosexuality as a livable proposition in contrast to the past, it is also possible it is simply the more visible presence.  People don't hide if they are active gays as they used to, they have become a pretty constant presence on in the media, both in entertainment and news.  Schools promote GBLT clubs and such.

I also agree generally with what you are saying.  The percentage that is most often kicked around is 2-5%.  I am not sure where these numbers come from, but I do think that 2% is probably at the short end of the actual numbers.  

 

I am constantly amazed at how many gay ex-Mormons I meet.  I don't make an issue of my past activity in the church, but there seems to always be clues that former Mormons pick up on that starts the conversation.  A couple of years ago, a friend invited me to Thanksgiving dinner at his house. His son is a chef at an international hotel in the city.  The dinner was amazing.  I was talking to another one of the guests about how good the food was and then innocently asked "but where was the Jello."  He turned to me and asked, "Are you Mormon?". I thought that was pretty funny he picked up on that by my innocent comment.  Most gay members end up leaving the church.  I think it is only normal that they want a life they can share with a soulmate.  The churches solution of being celibate your whole life doesn't work for most individuals.  Maybe that is why Rockpond envisions a different solution eventually.

[rockpond]

Most gay members end up leaving the church.  I think it is only normal that they want a life they can share with a soulmate.  The churches solution of being celibate your whole life doesn't work for most individuals.  Maybe that is why Rockpond envisions a different solution eventually.

 

That is a key reason why I pray for additional light & knowledge that might reveal another solution...

 

For nearly a decade I served the youth as a Priest quorum advisor, YM President, and early morning seminary teacher.  During that time I watched five of our young men not only walk away from the church, but from what I could tell, walk away from faith in God in general.  Each of them from strong faithful families who were active in the church.  I have kept in contact with several, I watch their lives from a distance, and I think their departure from the church is our loss.

[Brian 2.0]

This was from Pa Pa in the Jesus Personal Visitation thread, but it seems to belong here as well:

 

Those who seek to attempt to put marriage into such a single emotion as sex, do not know much about marriage. When people try to do it with polygamy it is only an attempt to defame.

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This was from Pa Pa in the Jesus Personal Visitation thread, but it seems to belong here as well:

If I may add to this...this tactic is used to defame the Prophet Joseph Smith and other early leaders a sex fends. If this were all they were they could have convince women that one night stands were ordained by God. Marriage was certainly no easy route to sex, marriage implies commitment, love, children along with a lifetime investments in these children. Trying to reduce any marriage to a single act, if childish.

[CV75]

If I may add to this...this tactic is used to defame the Prophet Joseph Smith and other early leaders a sex fends. If this were all they were they could have convince women that one night stands were ordained by God. Marriage was certainly no easy route to sex, marriage implies commitment, love, children along with a lifetime investments in these children. Trying to reduce any marriage to a single act, if childish.

We’ve all seen examples where a position, a special insight, or a personal revelation dovetails with with a propensity to bear down against the Church and accuse the Lord’s anointed of sin, silly tradition and faulty understanding. This brings to mind the approaches used by Nehor and Korihor (Alma Chapters 1 and 30).

 

In seeing the various doctrinal and historical arguments to support same-sex sealings, it seems that the “Nehoresque” teachings bear down against the Church to promote that everyone should be sealed to anyone of their choosing regardless of gender, for the Lord created everyone, and also redeemed everyone; and, in the end, gays should be sealed to their same-sex partner so they can lift up their heads and rejoice like everyone else. And it seems that, in “Korihoresque” fashion that such an epiphany is so pleasing to the carnal mind that one can believe that it is true, to the point of judging the fitness of the Lord’s anointed to receive like revelation.

 

Once I hear an appeal to personal revelation, and then it is consistently supported by bearing down against the Church or by accusing the Lord’s anointed, I see quickly that there is little continued value in "making any reply," for bridges are not being sought to be built.

[rockpond]

 

We’ve all seen examples where a position, a special insight, or a personal revelation dovetails with with a propensity to bear down against the Church and accuse the Lord’s anointed of sin, silly tradition and faulty understanding. This brings to mind the approaches used by Nehor and Korihor (Alma Chapters 1 and 30).

 

In seeing the various doctrinal and historical arguments to support same-sex sealings, it seems that the “Nehoresque” teachings bear down against the Church to promote that everyone should be sealed to anyone of their choosing regardless of gender, for the Lord created everyone, and also redeemed everyone; and, in the end, gays should be sealed to their same-sex partner so they can lift up their heads and rejoice like everyone else. And it seems that, in “Korihoresque” fashion that such an epiphany is so pleasing to the carnal mind that one can believe that it is true, to the point of judging the fitness of the Lord’s anointed to receive like revelation.

 

Once I hear an appeal to personal revelation, and then it is consistently supported by bearing down against the Church or by accusing the Lord’s anointed, I see quickly that there is little continued value in "making any reply," for bridges are not being sought to be built.

 

 

Not sure if this was directed at me...

 

I have not born down on the church.  I am an active member, serving faithfully.

 

And I have not accused the Lord's anointed of sin.

 

I actually have been working to build bridges and I believe I have been thoughtful and considerate in my responses to you.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We’ve all seen examples where a position, a special insight, or a personal revelation dovetails with with a propensity to bear down against the Church and accuse the Lord’s anointed of sin, silly tradition and faulty understanding. This brings to mind the approaches used by Nehor and Korihor (Alma Chapters 1 and 30).

 

In seeing the various doctrinal and historical arguments to support same-sex sealings, it seems that the “Nehoresque” teachings bear down against the Church to promote that everyone should be sealed to anyone of their choosing regardless of gender, for the Lord created everyone, and also redeemed everyone; and, in the end, gays should be sealed to their same-sex partner so they can lift up their heads and rejoice like everyone else. And it seems that, in “Korihoresque” fashion that such an epiphany is so pleasing to the carnal mind that one can believe that it is true, to the point of judging the fitness of the Lord’s anointed to receive like revelation.

 

Once I hear an appeal to personal revelation, and then it is consistently supported by bearing down against the Church or by accusing the Lord’s anointed, I see quickly that there is little continued value in "making any reply," for bridges are not being sought to be built.

The silly traditions you speak of we're long standing laws on marriage. Now we have a longer standing issue through tout almost all the Nations of the earth. God did define marriage and the primary purpose of it, neither of which can be achieved in SSM.

[rockpond]

The silly traditions you speak of we're long standing laws on marriage. Now we have a longer standing issue through tout almost all the Nations of the earth. God did define marriage and the primary purpose of it, neither of which can be achieved in SSM.

 

I fully accept (and participate in) marriage as we understand it from scripture.  I also believe we should continue to learn and seek further light and knowledge on the subject as we have done over the history of the latter-day church.

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed. Add in that while I, and the Church, considers homosexual acts a sin. I feel those whom treat poorly our homosexual brothers and sisters have the greater sin. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I fully accept (and participate in) marriage as we understand it from scripture. I also believe we should continue to learn and seek further light and knowledge on the subject as we have done over the history of the latter-day church.

There is no further light and knowledge than from God. TSS, God has already taught us to love sinners, else how could we love anyone. Edited September 13, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[rockpond]

There is no further light and knowledge than from God.

 

Exactly

[Okie67]

I don't know if SSA is "born with" or "acquired," but I know the resultant behavior, for those who act on it, is considered sin in God's eyes. As I understand it, however, it's no worse a sin than somebody who commits adultery. Love the sinner, but don't condone the sin.

 

 Solicitation removed.   We do not allow spamming on this board, because you added some content the spam will be removed from your posts in the event it was a newbie mistake.