EllenMaksoud Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 This is just the opinion of an outsider that the church saved, and I say this because if I had not met the Sisters in Kirtland, I would surely be dead. In my opinion, what really makes the church is not whether the Bom is true, or if Joseph Smith really practiced polygamy or not or 100 other things. I think that these things that I see Mormons fretting about are abundantly unimportant when compared to the real strengths we see every day. The love and care that Mormons show to each other (John 13:35, By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.) That is the root and the strength of the church, and IMHO Mormons do it better than any other group of people I have ever met. Most Mormons I know actively seek ways to please God, and do their best to follow the lead of the LDS management structure. So, stop wringing your hands about your doubts and just go on and live your lives before Heavenly Father. I was not a born Mormon, and the very idea that Mormons would care for someone like me just knocks me on my butt. In the face of all the care and love showered on me, and on most other people in the church, there is nothing left for me to do but to be the best Mormon I can. People with physical handicaps and developmental issues are mostly invisible in society at large, but not in the Mormon church. The fact that they are here speaks to me so powerfully, I can't hardly take it in. I have a couple issues myself and for the first time in my life, people just ignored them. I actually think that some of the biggest doubters are perhaps just seeking a way to invalidate the church so they can go off and sin. Thank you. 1
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) I'm a convert too. I converted at the age of 20. I am forever greatful for the members whom have shown so much love to me. Edited August 22, 2013 by thesometimesaint
Questing Beast Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 ... I actually think that some of the biggest doubters are perhaps just seeking a way to invalidate the church so they can go off and sin. Thank you.That is true of a few. But in my limited experience most "doubters" think too much. How can you escape your own mind? It works at things the way it does and then you have problems living with the ramifications. Many doubters on this forum, including me, remain actively associated as Mormons. Many join other religious faiths. Many quit religion altogether but do not turn into hedonists. A few do that last bit. I agree that the Church is defined by the lives and actions of its members. Doctrine is for improvement. It isn't for proof of anything other than the quality of the "product", which is people. If the quality is high then the doctrine is good. Mormonism is to my limited experience the best organized religion on the planet because it produces high quality families and people. The good overpowers the warts and blemishes....
Kenngo1969 Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 Ellen, I agree with most of what you said, but I do think that without Joseph Smith and his translating the Book of Mormon "by the gift and power of God," the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would simply be another Protestant religion. I know there are members who have their doubts, and I don't wish to draw any lines to divide us. I hope they would find ways to feed their faith rather than feed their doubts, and I do believe they can find much good (and do much good) in the Church of Jesus Christ, their doubts notwithstanding. But with that caveat ...
The Nehor Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 The Priesthood and its ordinances by which the power of godliness can be made manifest in all of the membership.
Tacenda Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) This is just the opinion of an outsider that the church saved, and I say this because if I had not met the Sisters in Kirtland, I would surely be dead. In my opinion, what really makes the church is not whether the Bom is true, or if Joseph Smith really practiced polygamy or not or 100 other things. I think that these things that I see Mormons fretting about are abundantly unimportant when compared to the real strengths we see every day. The love and care that Mormons show to each other (John 13:35, By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.) That is the root and the strength of the church, and IMHO Mormons do it better than any other group of people I have ever met. Most Mormons I know actively seek ways to please God, and do their best to follow the lead of the LDS management structure. So, stop wringing your hands about your doubts and just go on and live your lives before Heavenly Father. I was not a born Mormon, and the very idea that Mormons would care for someone like me just knocks me on my butt. In the face of all the care and love showered on me, and on most other people in the church, there is nothing left for me to do but to be the best Mormon I can. People with physical handicaps and developmental issues are mostly invisible in society at large, but not in the Mormon church. The fact that they are here speaks to me so powerfully, I can't hardly take it in. I have a couple issues myself and for the first time in my life, people just ignored them. I actually think that some of the biggest doubters are perhaps just seeking a way to invalidate the church so they can go off and sin. Thank you.I agree with everything you said until the last sentence. This isn't true at all. But it's your right to speak freely about it. There are many that didn't live their life only believing the church is good because of the goodness of the people but that the church is the only true church. But when they see discrepancies they weren't aware of, it's because of the goodness of the people that they stay. How ironic they are in the same state of mind you are in, incredible. So you are in good company. ETA: Ellen, you may believe it's true because of the BoM and JS also, sorry to put words in your mouth if I did that. Also, the church may just be true because of the goodness that exudes from living it, which makes it true for all kinds of reasons. Edited August 22, 2013 by Tacenda
mbh26 Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 What happens when the members choose to not show love and care for each other? Does that make the Church not true?
Questing Beast Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 What happens when the members choose to not show love and care for each other? Does that make the Church not true? Yes. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/James-1-27/
EllenMaksoud Posted August 23, 2013 Author Posted August 23, 2013 Ellen, I agree with most of what you said, but I do think that without Joseph Smith and his translating the Book of Mormon "by the gift and power of God," the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would simply be another Protestant religion. I know there are members who have their doubts, and I don't wish to draw any lines to divide us. I hope they would find ways to feed their faith rather than feed their doubts, and I do believe they can find much good (and do much good) in the Church of Jesus Christ, their doubts notwithstanding. But with that caveat ... Oh, I believe in the BoM, and other aspects of the church. I was brought to the church in a way that there was no doubt in my mind that Heavenly Father wanted me there. My only decision was to decide to be obedient to him, or not. In addition, the BoM and Joseph Smith were not much of a leap for me because as a Muslim, I believed, and still do, in the Qur'an and Muhammad PBUH as the prophet of God (Allah SWT). For me, Mormonism was simply a continuation of God speaking to man. I disagree with the Muslim belief that Muhammad PBUH was the last prophet of God. I never stopped believing in Jesus Christ when I left the Ev church and became Muslim; even thinking that I would eventually find Muslims who thought of Jesus Christ in the Western sense. And, in truth I know some Iranian Muslims that do, but they are pretty veiled about that. Still, for me, the real proof in the validity of the church is in the degree of their obedience of the two commandments that Jesus Christ gave us.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 23, 2013 Author Posted August 23, 2013 What happens when the members choose to not show love and care for each other? Does that make the Church not true? No, it just makes those members not true.
brainburn Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I'm a doubter and it's a rare pleasure to talk to a believer who understands that there's really only one primary reason to be mormon: emotional resonance with the community.The curious thing is that's exactly why I reserve judgement as to whether Mormonism or any other spiritual paradigm is true. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Oh, I believe in the BoM, and other aspects of the church. I was brought to the church in a way that there was no doubt in my mind that Heavenly Father wanted me there. My only decision was to decide to be obedient to him, or not. In addition, the BoM and Joseph Smith were not much of a leap for me because as a Muslim, I believed, and still do, in the Qur'an and Muhammad PBUH as the prophet of God (Allah SWT). For me, Mormonism was simply a continuation of God speaking to man. I disagree with the Muslim belief that Muhammad PBUH was the last prophet of God. I never stopped believing in Jesus Christ when I left the Ev church and became Muslim; even thinking that I would eventually find Muslims who thought of Jesus Christ in the Western sense. And, in truth I know some Iranian Muslims that do, but they are pretty veiled about that. Still, for me, the real proof in the validity of the church is in the degree of their obedience of the two commandments that Jesus Christ gave us.I know you do; my remarks were directed to any who might be tempted to discount the centrality of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
bu11fr0g Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 The difficulty is when we or our families have been greatly hurt by the actions of members.
boulder257 Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I understand the point of the OP, but I left with the rather looming problem that we cannot judge a faith by its adherents. It reminds me of a quote from the Dahli Llama where he said, "I like you Christ, but I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I think we need to search for truth. Then, no matter what kind of people it is surrounded by, we must adhere to and defend that truth.
3DOP Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) I understand the point of the OP, but I left with the rather looming problem that we cannot judge a faith by its adherents. It reminds me of a quote from the Dahli Llama where he said, "I like you Christ, but I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I think we need to search for truth. Then, no matter what kind of people it is surrounded by, we must adhere to and defend that truth. Hi Boulder, I know what you mean too. However, the true faith practised should make a bad man good and a good man holy. Would you be Catholic even if there had never been any saints? The lives of the saints are an almost endless resource that can reinforce our faith without much in the way of intellectual activity. There are different ways of finding truth and retaining truth. I am a convert, and became Catholic almost exclusively through intellectual considerations-apologetics. I didn't know any practicing Catholics when I was inquiring. But at some point, without vivid examples of a beautiful practical value of the truth held, the intellect is left alone, and faith is hard to retain. When a Catholic ponders the lives of the saints, it seems impossible to have doubts about the distinctives of the faith to which the saints adhered. Clearly, St. Thomas Aquinas argued with his mind, but perhaps his life "argued" even better. I am thinking that some souls look for the examples first in their search? It seems to me that finding a good priest or spouse or biographical figure is often the way of salvation for souls not really wired to do apologetics. But I think all of us would flounder in our beliefs if we lacked any example of how the truth improves, sanctifies, and even deifies in this life the one who will adhere completely to that faith. Regards, 3DOP Edited August 23, 2013 by 3DOP 1
boulder257 Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Hi Boulder, I know what you mean too. However, the true faith practised should make a bad man good and a good man holy. Would you be Catholic even if there had never been any saints? The lives of the saints are an almost endless resource that can reinforce our faith without much in the way of intellectual activity. There are different ways of finding truth and retaining truth. I am a convert, and became Catholic almost exclusively through intellectual considerations-apologetics. I didn't know any practicing Catholics when I was inquiring. But at some point, without vivid examples of a beautiful practical value of the truth held, the intellect is left alone, and faith is hard to retain. When a Catholic ponders the lives of the saints, it seems impossible to have doubts about the distinctives of the faith to which the saints adhered. Clearly, St. Thomas Aquinas argued with his mind, but perhaps his life "argued" even better. I am thinking that some souls look for the examples first in their search? It seems to me that finding a good priest or spouse or biographical figure is often the way of salvation for souls not really wired to do apologetics. But I think all of us would flounder in our beliefs if we lacked any example of how the truth improves, sanctifies, and even deifies in this life the one who will adhere completely to that faith. Regards, 3DOP Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't mean to infer that one should ignore the members of a Church, just that that should not be the only determining factor. What you said makes perfect sense and was said quite well. Thanks.
Ahab Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Hi Boulder, I know what you mean too. However, the true faith practised should make a bad man good and a good man holy. Would you be Catholic even if there had never been any saints? The lives of the saints are an almost endless resource that can reinforce our faith without much in the way of intellectual activity. There are different ways of finding truth and retaining truth. I am a convert, and became Catholic almost exclusively through intellectual considerations-apologetics. I didn't know any practicing Catholics when I was inquiring. But at some point, without vivid examples of a beautiful practical value of the truth held, the intellect is left alone, and faith is hard to retain. When a Catholic ponders the lives of the saints, it seems impossible to have doubts about the distinctives of the faith to which the saints adhered. Clearly, St. Thomas Aquinas argued with his mind, but perhaps his life "argued" even better. I am thinking that some souls look for the examples first in their search? It seems to me that finding a good priest or spouse or biographical figure is often the way of salvation for souls not really wired to do apologetics. But I think all of us would flounder in our beliefs if we lacked any example of how the truth improves, sanctifies, and even deifies in this life the one who will adhere completely to that faith. Regards, 3DOPI've found that there are many good people in just about any Church I have found out about, though, so a Church with good people isn't necessarily the true Church of Jesus Christ. We are to be disciples of Jesus Christ, rather than disciples of people who follow him, although ideally there shouldn't be any big difference in regard to our character traits.
pogi Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 So, stop wringing your hands about your doubts and just go on and live your lives before Heavenly Father. I was not a born Mormon, and the very idea that Mormons would care for someone like me just knocks me on my butt. In the face of all the care and love showered on me, and on most other people in the church, there is nothing left for me to do but to be the best Mormon I can. Love it!
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