Many Paths To Christ???

[mfbukowski]

Sometimes I think there are converts and then there are "lifers" born under the covenant, and never the twain shall meet.

 

Converts are naturally seekers and lifers are afraid to peek out the windows.

 

I would hope we could all be converts.

[canard78]

Sometimes I think there are converts and then there are "lifers" born under the covenant, and never the twain shall meet.

Converts are naturally seekers and lifers are afraid to peek out the windows.

I would hope we could all be converts.

This ties into the Pew research in 2011 that showed that BICs are less likely to doubt aspects of Mormonism than converts.

This makes sense when you consider the (sometimes huge) life change they had to make to become Mormon. By converting they are more likely to be people who challenge their own presumption and paradigms.

[rameumptom]

I believe there are many paths to Christ.  However, I also believe there is only one path to the Celestial Kingdom.

 

Those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom receive the presence of Christ and become the "children of Christ"  or living a terrestrial state:

 

• 4 Nephi 1:17

  17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

• Mormon 9:26

  26 And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord? Who can deny his sayings? Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord? Who will despise the works of the Lord? Who will despise the children of Christ? Behold, all ye who are despisers of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish.

• Mosiah 5:7

  7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

[DBMormon]

I think there may be some confusion...while I agree that some do promote that POV, I think that others such as myself when they speak of multiple paths to God are talking more about life (and this includes the next life as well) as a journey down a pathway and since different people start out in different spots, we all have a different path to travel.

People aren't just wandering lost if they aren't members, not all of them. Many (probably most in my view) have spiritually purposeful lives. The prophets have identified a number of individuals who have walked a different path for a time so we could walk ours even.

Eventually for those seeking God, they must encounter the strait and narrow and choose to walk about it....iow in my view the pathways to God converge and I do believe the convergence is also the pathway of the LDS ordinances and doctrine, but at the beginning of one's walk and perhaps all through mortality, the Lord provides plenty of instruction and guidance for those outside the Church's way...otherwise no one besides those BIC would ever come to God. And I think it is possible that due to one's current status that for now, they may be better learning outside the Church then within (it would seem weird if being inside the Church was so very much better eternally speaking as the majority of those who have existed have not had that opportunity and so would be way behind in development than those within...I think it is more about what you do with what you have than what one has for now).

God would not be a very loving Father if he allowed the one pathway to be removed from the earth so often, lost to most of its inhabitants if there were not other equally viable options (though perhaps not so desirable...though that would depend on how one is defining 'desire') for them to follow at least for mortality.

I am not claiming that salvific ordinances are available through any other vehicle at this time than the LDS Church, I am just saying not everyone needs to have these ordinances right now as long as sometime in their future they fully accept them by---as I say above---entering at last upon the strait and narrow. I also think some pathways come extremely close for the individuals that are journeying on them.

If you disagree with what I have described, perhaps you would be kind enough to explain how the fulness of the gospel's absence from the access of the vast majority of people over the eons plays into your ideas.

Loved this!!! you get an A+ from me.  I would have given you 7 rep points but it wouldn't let me.

[Calm]

Loved this!!! you get an A+ from me.  I would have given you 7 rep points but it wouldn't let me.

One is more than enough.  Thank you.  

[Tacenda]

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html

 

This Denver Snuffer guy chose this path to Christ and apparently is getting disciplined for it.  Mods if you want me to remove or think this will derail, I will. 

 

http://mormonstories.org/?s=denver+snuff

 

Here is his story with John Dehlin. 

 

http://mormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com/2013/03/lds-author-denver-snuffer-vigorously.html?m=1

 

Book in question.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

He is teaching the Church is in apostasy, is he not?  That is the path he chose, to take on the role of prophet and pronounce where the Church has gone astray.

 

Seems like it makes sense that from the Church's POV, he is the one in apostasy.  If the Church is not in apostasy, then it is correct to do so as well.

Edited August 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

He is teaching the Church is in apostasy, is he not? That is the path he chose, to take on the role of prophet and pronounce where the Church has gone astray.

Seems like it makes sense that from the Church's POV, he is the one in apostasy. If the Church is not in apostasy, then it is correct to do so as well.

I saw this on FB's 'It's a Thoughtful Faith'. Some think it's going backwards to when some were ex'd for writing books. But nowadays people write books all the time that may be iffy. Like RSR, would Bushman's book have been on the same tightrope 20 yrs. ago? Some have come out of mormonism because of that book. Or is Denver's book incorrect or false? I guess I'd better check it out further. ETA: He states he isn't teaching that the church is in apostasy. Edited August 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Bushman never promoted his own spiritual understandings over the Church leaders, never taught that the Church was in apostasy.

 

And having read his Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism which was published in 85, which was not that much different in tone to my view, though greater in depth, I highly doubt that he would ever be in the position that DS is in now, whether it was 20 years ago, 30 or 10.

[Tacenda]

Bushman never promoted his own spiritual understandings over the Church leaders, never taught that the Church was in apostasy.

And having read his Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism which was published in 85, which was not that much different in tone to my view, though greater in depth, I highly doubt that he would ever be in the position that DS is in now, whether it was 20 years ago, 30 or 10.

I'm forever grateful for Richard Bushman and his dear wife Claudia. And I really have no idea about this Denver guy, just worry that the church might get some backlash if indeed Denver is doing what he says and not teaching that the church is in apostasy. ETA: I guess members should keep their speeches and books inline with the leaders of the church and not try to start their own followings in this regard. Edited August 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Mormonism has undergone four distinct phases. The first began in 1820 and ended with Joseph Smith’s death in 1844. The second began upon Joseph Smith’s death and ended with abandonment of plural marriage, publicly in 1890 and privately in 1904. In the third phase Mormonism denounced as apostasy its practice of plural wives, marking the first time an orthodox practice became grounds for excommunication. The fourth phase began with David O. McKay and is still underway. In it Mormonism has adopted corporate management techniques to consolidate and direct central church decision-making. The first phase was innovative and expansive, continually adding doctrine, scripture, teachings and ordinances. Subsequent phases have curtailed, abandoned, even denounced earlier teaching and doctrine. Phases two through four have all abandoned doctrine. Growth in these subsequent phases has been defined in terms of political influence, financial gains, cultural inroads, and population growth; while the underlying religion has been curtailed. Today, marketing the institution has become more important to Mormon success than preserving the original religious content. The changes from phase to phase have completely transformed Mormonism, sharing a vocabulary but redefining the terms. Modern Mormonism has now institutionalized change. For the first time in this book Mormonism is candidly described in terms which track the changes by examining doctrine, teachings and practices. Interestingly, the passing of the heavenly gift was anticipated by Joseph Smith’s prophecies and the Book of Mormon.

 

 

A review:

 

 In the present book he takes these topics and overlays them on a historical overview of the LDS Church. Essentially, he theorizes that the Mormon Church has been in an expanding state of apostasy ever since leaving Nauvoo, Illinois, in 1845.

He divides the church's history into four phases. The first corresponded to the life of Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith. Smith desired to bring his followers literally into the Lord's presence, the same as Moses did at Mount Sinai. According to a revelation given to Smith, Mormons were to be given this transcendent opportunity in the Nauvoo Temple, but only if they completed the building within a certain time frame. Otherwise the Lord would reject them, drive them from Nauvoo, and pour out his divine judgments on them. Snuffer demonstrates that the temple was unfinished when the Mormons fled Nauvoo in 1845, and, having failed to follow the Lord's commandment, he claims that the renown Mormon trek west was not the commonly portrayed heroic struggle of Mormon pioneers overcoming adversity, but as evidence of the Lord's displeasure and judgment on them. He questions the accepted narrative developed by Nauvoo's successors of Mormon history and presents a radically alternative view.

His second phase, which begun in 1845, ended when Wilford Woodruff signed the so-called manifesto ending Mormon polygamy in 1890, in order to find accommodation with American society. Snuffer sees this period as time in which the church's Twelve Apostles, under Brigham Young's leadership, expropriated unwarranted power as the chief governing body of the church, as well as the beginning of the abandonment of some Smith's all-important teachings. He is particularly critical of the church's institutionalizing plural marriage, which he thinks was contrary to Joseph Smith's desire.

In his second phase, which ended with the death of church president Joseph F. Smith in 1918, he sees the Church further abandoning the founder's teachings. He finds it ironic that the church reversed its position on polygamy after 1904, making it an excommunicable offense, when it had been previously regarded as necessary for exaltation. He feels that under President Heber J. Grant, the church became so heavily engaged in commercial businesses, that the meetings of church's First Presidency and Twelve Apostles, devolved into meetings more like a board of directors, rather a than ecclesiastical body dealing with the spiritual needs of the church. He is further critical of the church's Apostles, who were once charged to seek a visitation of Jesus Christ, so they could personally testify as his special witnesses, writing that there is evidence that few, if any of them, have made such claims since 1900, and that such a charge is no longer required.

In his fourth phase, which he sees as on-going, began with the presidency of David O. McKay in 1952. He is particularly critical of the church leadership's fostering a cult of personality around the church's president, which regards him as an almost infallible prophet. He also deplores the church's correlation program that centralizes all governance in the church leadership in Salt Lake City, including a growing and powerful, unaccountable bureaucracy at church headquarters. He finds the church's adoption of corporate management practices, including its use of focus groups and polls, very problematic. He sees all these factors have paved the way for church leaders to make sweeping changes that have homogenized the gospel and created a highly centralized authoritarian church, which has abandoned in the process many of the weightier doctrines of the church's founder, Joseph Smith.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Passing-Heavenly-Gift-Denver-Snuffer/dp/0615528961

[Vanguard]

Several posters here on this forum have expounded the theory that there are multiple paths to Christ. I can find but little if any scriptural support for a multiple paths theology. Rather, I find that the opposite is true. However, I am open to a course correction if someone can find scriptures that will support such a doctrine.

This verse from D&C Section one has been presented to explore the possibility that there is more than one true church.

"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—"

The idea being that there are indeed more than one "true" church, but at the time, there was only one true church with which the Lord was "well pleased", with the implication that there were other true churches at the time with which the Lord was less than well pleased. The grammar and punctuation of that verse does not lend itself to that interpretation as it is presently written. Has someone had a revelation that the puntuation is incorrect?

In April of 1830, Joseph Knight Sr. received this revelation via Joseph Smith Jr.

"And, behold, it is your duty to unite with the true church, and give your language to exhortation continually, that you may receive the reward of the laborer. Amen." (D&C 23:7)

Here Joseph Knight Sr. is being commanded to joint "the true church." This is singular. There is no date given for the revelation, except that it was in the month of April of 1830. Joseph Knight Sr. did not join the church until June of that year. But he did join the fledgling church that would become known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Again, I have found no support for this viewpoint from other scriptures. It is this type of reasoning, this type of scriptural interpretation that has led us from one church, one denomination, to some 39000 different denominations today that profess Christianity. Are they all be right?

This goes against the revelation recorded by Joseph Smith in his first vision, which goes:

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Of course one can quote this scripture for some type of support.

Luke 9:

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is afor us.

But then, there is the contradictory statement recorded by both Matthew and Luke.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

And then there is the "rest of the story:"

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 aAnd then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The many paths idea is also denied several places in the scriptures by Jesus himself when he said:

For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (D&C 132:22)

He says something very similar to the Jews in Matthew 7:14 and to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 14:14.

I think, hope that we all agree that through Christ is the only way to Heavenly Father.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It is true, according to LDS theology, that there are many paths to the telestial a terrestral kingdoms. A person can get to either of those kingdoms, but to get to the celestial kingdom, there is only one path that has been revealed. That is through the saving ordinances available through the Church of Jesus Christ.

It is also true that there are many who have lived upon this earth who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they will eventually have that opportunity and be able to choose their path.

At this point, I just do not see a scriptural basis for a "many paths to Christ" doctrine. I am awaiting further enlightenment.

Glenn

 

It's all true. There is only one way to Christ - through Christ. The problem is that we have very little idea what that looks like for each individual and we instead speak in maxims assuming this therefore settles the matter (i.e., "You must accept Christ in your heart", "One's countenance needs to change", "He must become a disciple", and so on). To our naked, temporal, material world eyes there is no way to determine who is on "the route" and who is not though Christ understands the myriad forms that "coming to Him" takes. I'm thankful it is He who will make that final determination about whether each of us came to Him.

[DBMormon]

It's all true. There is only one way to Christ - through Christ. The problem is that we have very little idea what that looks like for each individual and we instead speak in maxims assuming this therefore settles the matter (i.e., "You must accept Christ in your heart", "One's countenance needs to change", "He must become a disciple", and so on). To our naked, temporal, material world eyes there is no way to determine who is on "the route" and who is not though Christ understands the myriad forms that "coming to Him" takes. I'm thankful it is He who will make that final determination about whether each of us came to Him.

Really liked the way you put this.  A+

[JDave]

Only one path will get you all the way there, but many paths will get you most of the way there.

It's important to note that there are (and have been) a LOT of people on earth who aren't even Christian.  Many of those many paths (that get you most of the way there) aren't even based on the Savior of mankind.  I think the concept of heathens just doesn't make sense with our current understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation.

[thesometimesaint]

Streight is the path and narrow is the way.

[Vanguard]

Streight is the path and narrow is the way.

 

Indeed, one of the better maxims...

[Flyonthewall]

Many paths to the gate (baptism), one path after.  It would be premature of us to judge a man's path in this life, they are all potentially right.  It is not so much the path, but the heart that matters.  All paths will eventually lead to the gait, but only the heart will lead through the gait.

This is my thoughts too... Many paths to the gate, one path after.

Once on the path, people may take detours or backtrack or get off & back on, but only one path.

[thesometimesaint]

I may not always stay on the streight and narrow path, but I do try to cross it every once in a while.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I like it. What inspired it Pa Pa?...

At that time, I felt I was losing my way and often when I have such demons, poems become the means of getting rid of the demons and receive answers to prayers.

My favorite quote that came to me was this realization...

Tho blinded by the darkness,

The light I still can see.

Tho deafened by the silence,

His voice still come to me.

One thing I forgot to list in that post, if memory serves, the greatest scripture of the path to God can be found in one of the greatest sermons ever given by Jacob...2 Nephi 9: 41. "?...see who is the keeper of the gate and the only one who cannot be deceived.

[mfbukowski]

This ties into the Pew research in 2011 that showed that BICs are less likely to doubt aspects of Mormonism than converts.

This makes sense when you consider the (sometimes huge) life change they had to make to become Mormon. By converting they are more likely to be people who challenge their own presumption and paradigms.

Yep that's exactly it.

 

Lifers seem to have no clue about how crazy it all sounds when you first hear the story of the plates etc and then the incredible brain-blowing realization that one can hear confirmation from God Himself that the wackiest thing you ever heard in your life just happens to be true.

 

It is much more reasonable to believe that aliens have landed and it has been kept secret for all these years than to believe that Joseph received gold plates from an angel etc.

 

Just imagine getting a testimony that the craziest possible thing you can imagine actually happened and you cannot deny that the testimony was from God.  No wonder converts can develop doubt that the testimony was "really" the way they remember it, etc.  That is where magnifying one's testimony day by day comes in.

 

But maybe that's just me.  On the other hand I had the philosophical experience to know that what we know of "reality" is tremendously limited, and what can happen in this magic world really is just that- magic!

[mfbukowski]

 

I believe there are many paths to Christ.  However, I also believe there is only one path to the Celestial Kingdom.

Indeed!

 

But in a sense that goes without saying - one must know that something exists before one can get there!  The first part of planning a trip is having a destination!