British Pageant

[canard78]

We didnt yell at anyone. Just a bit of chit chat.

Quintessentially British!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I can only look forward to that level of responsibility haha thanks for that.

10 more posts and it is yours.

[canard78]

I condemn noone, I am just going from Biblical teachings.

John 3:18 (two verses after the one everyone likes)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Regardless of faith background etc if anyone has not totally trusted in Christ then they are condemned and their eternity will reflect this.

I certainly cannot look at whole groups of people and say they all fit into this, it is down to the individual and their trust in Christ. Many muslims will have looked past the Islamic teachings and trusted in Jesus for their salvation and be saved. This however would be despite rather than because of their movements teachings.

Hmm... I guess our perspective on eternity and the opportunities to accept Christ during it is where we might have a difference of opinion.

I don't believe in a perspective of God as someone who would create human life with no opportunity to do anything other than be damned. The majority of humanity will live and die with no interaction with the Christian message. No opportunity to hear and believe. Why would God do that?

Like I said in the other thread - Christ said on his return he would gather all nations and separate them as goats and sheep. All nations, not just those exposed to Christianity.

Having said that, I accept that many people function better under a position of certainty about absolutist perspectives. I accept that God will teach some of his children an absolute view because it's a better way of having them apply the principles that eventually lead to following Christ. That last statement applies as much to some perspectives in Mormonism as it does in other religions.

[JGourlay]

I went with MrG to the Pageant and made a video on its use of George Wishart - comments welcome

[Calm]

I don't know what the Pageant itself was like, but when LDS talk about people in history who were "forerunners" so to speak, we are talking about their actions and sacrifices having laid the foundation for creating the society that has allowed the gospel to come forth in the latter days. These sacrifices may have had nothing to do with religion even...such as those who died in various wars of independence or who pushed for education of the public. I don't know of any LDS who sees such historical individuals as somehow owned by Mormons or somehow a "preMormon", it is merely a recognition and appreciation of the work they did that has contributed to a better life for us.

[Calm]

For example, from our children's magazine...a bio on Martin Luther:

President Joseph F. Smith said that “Calvin, Luther, Melanchthon, and all reformers, were inspired in thoughts, words, and actions to accomplish what they did for the liberty, and advancement of the human race. They paved the way for the more perfect gospel of truth to come.” (Improvement Era, “Editor’s Table: Fountain of Truth,” June 1907, page 629.)

http://www.lds.org/friend/1984/10/martin-luther-defender-of-justice-and-seeker-of-truth?lang=eng

Another: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/03/what-had-to-happen?lang=eng

“Such were the teachings and lives of the great reformers. Their deeds were heroic, their contributions many, their sacrifices great—but they did not restore the gospel of Jesus Christ.” —President Thomas S. Monson, First Counselor in the First Presidency, “They Showed the Way,” Ensign, May 1997, 51.

It is about understanding history and how things came to unfold, not claiming someone as somehow our own even while recognizing his or her significance to our faith.

That is what we do with proxy work. ****

*****Just teasing, I personally don't see someone who has been given proxy work as "Mormon"; if they accept it, they belong to the Church of the Lamb of God, not to the earthly organization version known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We hope we are part of the Church of Christ as well, but we are a subset of it if we are what we believe we are, not the whole. That involves all those who have been true seekers of Christ and God the Father from the beginning of creation to the very end, in heaven and on earth, including when the LDS faith wasn't present on the earth.

Edited August 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Alan]

I suspect MrG is not being entirely accurate in his description of why he was at the Pageant.

As I read it, his claim is that he isn't particularly "anti-Mormon" just pro-Christ and was there to declare Christ and nothing more.

However, only a fraction of the 1,500 people attending the pageant each day would actually walk along Temple Way (most went straight to the car parks/shuttle bus etc). Now, Chorley is a large town. There would have been many more people milling about Chorley town centre than the few on Temple Way. So, why not go and preach the pro-Christ message to the people of Chorley rather than a handful of Mormons attending a Pageant?

I think we know the answer.

[Daniel Peterson]

Cool thanks for that, I think thats obviously a big discussion and I plan on dropping on here more in days to come so for the sake of staying in topic I will leave that there.

Back to the British Pageant though have many people here been and what did they think? Are there any good honest sources that I could look at to see more of British Mormon history?

By far the best book regarding the specific period on which the pageant focuses is James Allen, Ronald Esplin, and David Whittaker's Men with a Mission:

http://www.amazon.co... with a Mission

All three are well-respected and well-published historians of Mormonism (and, for what it's worth, all three are friends of mine).

Peter Fagg and his online materials are also superb sources. I spent roughly half of July going around to LDS history sites in England and Wales with Peter, and he's a wonderful guy.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Daniel Peterson

[MrG]

Thanks a lot Daniel wishlisting it now!

[MrG]

Yep Alan the answer is the horns on my head

Just kidding and again I dont expect anyone here to agree with or appreciate what we are doing, but I just thought it would be cool to put a face to the British Pageant "Protestors" and have some dialogue on it.

[MrG]

For what its worth some of the people with us did go into Chorley doing just that through the week witnessing to people, but I confess I just relaxed!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

PAPA this could potentially open a corker of a discussion but I am Pro Jesus and the absolute sufficiency of Him for the salvation and eternal life of those that trust in Him. I also believe in the absolute condemnation of those that do not trust in Him and I would like to do what I can in living out that great commission even when it does not please everyone.

Good, as do we and I know of no Church who honors that "commission". So far doing great, please expand.

[MrG]

Feel free to start another thread and I will be happy too, lets keep this thread on the pageant, someone may even want to talk about another aspect of it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I went with MrG to the Pageant and made a video on its use of George Wishart - comments welcome

It is customary to list your own commentary with any link.

[Paloma]

I suspect MrG is not being entirely accurate in his description of why he was at the Pageant.

As I read it, his claim is that he isn't particularly "anti-Mormon" just pro-Christ and was there to declare Christ and nothing more.

However, only a fraction of the 1,500 people attending the pageant each day would actually walk along Temple Way (most went straight to the car parks/shuttle bus etc). Now, Chorley is a large town. There would have been many more people milling about Chorley town centre than the few on Temple Way. So, why not go and preach the pro-Christ message to the people of Chorley rather than a handful of Mormons attending a Pageant?

I think we know the answer.

I don't know MrG but I can only think that he may have wanted to strategically reach both LDS folk and those interested in the LDS faith. Does this illustrate anti-Mormon sentiments any more than any missionary going to "the mission field" to preach the gospel?

Some of my Mormon friends have expressed appreciation for the personal sacrifices of Christian missionaries who, through building relational, educational and medical infrastructures and sometimes at the cost of their lives, opened the way for later missionary advances (including LDS missions) into countries where the explicit purpose was to go right to the heart of those to whom they wanted to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm simply saying that I don't think strategic planning for mission is "anti" any more than Mormon missionaries who target non-LDS homes and bring a message of the apostasy of all Christian churches along with the truth of the LDS church is "anti".

I want to add that I am definitely not in favour of heckling, badgering, picketing or any other inconsiderate approaches toward other faiths. Such behaviour is disrespectful at any time and place I think, and especially so at their places of worship or gatherings of any kind. But maintaining a presence for respectful dialogue seems to me a very missions-minded endeavour.

[Abulafia]

I believe Chris Ralph's dissertation was on Mormonism in the 19th century. He has written 3 articles on Church History to give balance to the information provided at the pageant. His information regarding Cyrus Whellock(?) was interesting.

I cannot get the link on my tab, but a google search for 'journey of loyal dissent' would find it.

[Alan]

Go to the website of the group MrG is associated with and it is all about witnessing to Mormons. Some individuals even go all the way over to Utah from the UK every summer to proselyte amongst the LDS. That sounds pretty anti-Mormon to me. Especially as there are millions of non or nominal Christians in the UK for them to witness to.

We took a non-member to the Pageant with us. She is work colleague and a devout and committed Christian. I attend a regular Bible class at her church. She was horrified that fellow Christians would protest such an event......absolutely horrified.

[ALarson]

Go to the website of the group MrG is associated with and it is all about witnessing to Mormons. Some individuals even go all the way over to Utah from the UK every summer to proselyte amongst the LDS. That sounds pretty anti-Mormon to me. Especially as there are millions of non or nominal Christians in the UK for them to witness to.

If you use that criteria, then you could say the same about "individuals" who "even go all the way" to the UK (missionaries) to proselyte among the Christians there. Are these missionaries to be labeled "Anti-Christian"?

At least MrG has the courage to show up here and discuss his views. Kudos for that!

[canard78]

If you use that criteria, then you could say the same about "individuals" who "even go all the way" to the UK (missionaries) to proselyte among the Christians there. Are these missionaries to be labeled "Anti-Christian"?

At least MrG has the courage to show up here and discuss his views. Kudos for that!

Very good point. I once organised a street meeting in Belgium. We sang, we even had a go at soap-boxing (with a few Books of Mormon* handed out). Does that make me anti-Belgian?

(Books of Mormon/Book of Mormons... which do you pluralise. There's an argument for both. "Book of Mormon" is the full title, so could have the 's' on the end... but books sounds better to me).

[Calm]

Yep Alan the answer is the horns on my head

Just kidding and again I dont expect anyone here to agree with or appreciate what we are doing, but I just thought it would be cool to put a face to the British Pageant "Protestors" and have some dialogue on it.

I always appreciate people being willing to come and talk, especially if they do so in a friendly manner.

[Calm]

I don't know MrG but I can only think that he may have wanted to strategically reach both LDS folk and those interested in the LDS faith. Does this illustrate anti-Mormon sentiments any more than any missionary going to "the mission field" to preach the gospel?

Some of my Mormon friends have expressed appreciation for the personal sacrifices of Christian missionaries who, through building relational, educational and medical infrastructures and sometimes at the cost of their lives, opened the way for later missionary advances (including LDS missions) into countries where the explicit purpose was to go right to the heart of those to whom they wanted to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm simply saying that I don't think strategic planning for mission is "anti" any more than Mormon missionaries who target non-LDS homes and bring a message of the apostasy of all Christian churches along with the truth of the LDS church is "anti".

I want to add that I am definitely not in favour of heckling, badgering, picketing or any other inconsiderate approaches toward other faiths. Such behaviour is disrespectful at any time and place I think, and especially so at their places of worship or gatherings of any kind. But maintaining a presence for respectful dialogue seems to me a very missions-minded endeavour.

[Calm]

If the sole purpose of people is to get LDS to stop being LDS, that is anti-mormon. If the primary focus of their attempts are to convert them to Christ (as they understand that) then I don't see that as anti-mormon any more than an LDS missionary teaching someone he knew was Catholic or Buddhist or Baptist or whatever in hopes that they would convert to the LDS faith is anti-whatever.

I can never understand those who spend so much time on trying to destroy someone else's faith instead of simply witnessing the truth and joy of their own....if only because it is likely much more effective if you are actually trying to convert someone and not just make them miserable.

[Hamba Tuhan]

(Books of Mormon/Book of Mormons... which do you pluralise. There's an argument for both. "Book of Mormon" is the full title, so could have the 's' on the end... but books sounds better to me).

'Book' belongs to the title. If as a bookshop owner you stocked a volume entitled Joan of Arc, would you ask your assistant to order more Joans of Arc or Joan of Arcs? The situation is exactly analogous.

[volgadon]

'Book' belongs to the title. If as a bookshop owner you stocked a volume entitled Joan of Arc, would you ask your assistant to order more Joans of Arc or Joan of Arcs? The situation is exactly analogous.

Technically, both options are wrong and one should say copies of the Book of Mormon.

[volgadon]

Very good point. I once organised a street meeting in Belgium. We sang, we even had a go at soap-boxing (with a few Books of Mormon* handed out). Does that make me anti-Belgian?

I should very much hope that you are anti-people-who-celebrate-indecent-public-fountains.