The Bible Is Not Enough For Salvation

[Programmer]

I loved reading the Bible the first time as a teenager. But the absolute worst part about the bible was the page after revelations chapter 22. .

The blank page...

The page that came after the words: 'THE END'.

Excuse me? The end? Of what? Gods word?

I wanted more. Much more. I hungered and thirsted for more scripture like a man in a desert thirsts for water.

Here is God, the creator of the Universe, who has an infinite mind, whose universe is endless, whose works are endless, whose words are endless. He sends his son to earth all we got was 403 pages of scripture? Half of which is just footnotes? Excuse me?

Here on earth, we have mortal men and mortal women with finite minds, with smart minds, even some with dumb minds who write books that are way bigger than the Bible. There have been authors whose writings dwarf that of the Bible. They could write enough material to equal the BIble in a few months. For instance Isaac Asimov amazingly published 506 works. Most authors who write for a career can reasonably expect to emit thousands of pages of works during their lifetime. And once you get an author going they really don't stop. Once they get going in a career, they don't stop until they die. That's just the way folks are. They go until they can't anymore.

So here we have today many christians, who are not LDS, who fight against the LDS church and the Latter Day scriptures, who preach that the Bible is the only word of God and there cannot be anymore of the word of God. And on the other hand, we have authors who in their careers routinely write much more than that contained in the Bible.

So on one hand there is an infinite being (God) who produces 403 pages of scripture for the new Testament. On the other hand there are finite mortals who routinely write thousands and tens of thousands of pages in their careers.

Think about it. If divine salvation is so important, why leave it to just 403 pages to guide the church for the last 2000 years? It takes thousands of pages for a novel to tell a story decently, and yet the New Testament is filled with theological gaps a mile wide. There are doctrines that are not discussed, there are doctrines that are just hinted at, there are histories completely left out, there are histories just hinted at. And that is only the first 50 or so years after Jesus ascended into heaven.

It took another 300 years for the first Christian historian to start writing something! And he had to scramble at that. Imagine writing the history of the U.S. Revolution against Britain in the year 2076. Isn't that a little late to start that history? Wouldn't it be hard to accurately write about the Battle of Brooklyn, and Valley Forge, and the Potomac 300 years later? Absolutely. Same for Christian history and doctrine. Thankfully the Bible survived during the first 300 years when the persecution against the church was at it's greatest. But that's all it did. It survived, but it did not lead the church, the Elders led the church back in those days. The Bible was merely a record of those who once led the church.

And just look at how successful the Bible has been in uniting Christians. In North America alone there thousands and thousands and thousands of different christian sects under no central authority. All walking in their own path, sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing. All teaching what they seem to believe. The Bible instead of becoming a common ground turned into a battle ground during those years, and I see no sign of any of that converging.

It's not the Bible's fault really. It's the people who believe in the Bible. They (you) do not have the same faith as people who wrote the Bible. If they (you) did, they (you) would (by definition) have enough faith to pull down from heaven their (your) own revelations.

It just doesn't seem logical to believe that God cannot reveal more of his word. In fact it is not logical to believe in a God who WILL NOT reveal more of his word. If God did stop, why? Did he get tired? Did he lose his motivation? If human authors never stop (Until they die), and they are mortal, why would God, who is immortal stop? Unless he died? Since God cannot die that eliminates that reason. But it still leaves modern day bible followers with no clear explanation (except mine) as to why the Bible stopped growing and God stopped speaking to prophets for almost 2000 years. The standard answer I've seen from Bible followers is that his work is done. Oh I see, God retired... What a damning doctrine. That's like the head architect and engineer of a massive skyscraper retiring when the plans are drawn up, and all that was started was a big hole in the ground. And all the architect left behind was a sketch and a few letters to the financiers of the building. Let me tell you, large buildings that size require hundreds and hundreds of pages of construction documents. A skyscraper built any other way, except with the original plans, is not the building the original architect designed or imagined. A church is way more important than a building. It is the souls of men and women at stake. And that requires a lot knowledge and wisdom that must be taught to the children of mankind. Way more than is found in a small book that is the Bible.

The question I have for bible followers is this. When will it be enough time that God will speak again and commission new prophets and renew his word? If 2000 years is not enough, will 3000 years be good enough? Perhaps 4000 years? Maybe 5000 years? Perhaps when you die and go to heaven, perhaps then you will ask Jesus to clear up some confusion. Do you intend to ask him some clarifying questions when you get to heaven and lay claim upon his mercy? After Jesus forgives you and welcomes you into his kingdom do you intend to ask him some questions or do you intend to remain in ignorance and not rock the boat? In the end, if ALL bible followers intend to live in the same heaven together after first believing different things, there MUST be a reconciling of beliefs in order to prevent a war in heaven. Remember God will tolerate no war, nor even bickering nor arguments in heaven. So a reconciliation MUST involve asking God himself some questions. So when you die and go to heaven don't be afraid, ask. Assuming you have enough faith then. Though I think if you don't have enough faith now, you probably won't have enough faith then either.

If you haven't guessed it, when I was a teenager and I finished the Bible, I was not in total despair. Thankfully I had access to the Book of Mormon too!!. I read that awesome book quite quickly and loved every page of it. I also quickly read the Doctrine and Covenants of the church as well. I read the rest of the scriptures that the LDS church prints too. And guess what my reaction was I read those? Yep, I wanted more.

Jesus said we are to study his word, and hunger and thirst after righteousness. You cannot lay claim to that and reject the Book of Mormon when you haven't read it. Such a prejudice will earn you the punishment affixed to rejecting God's word. Please don't be guilty of such a self-inflicted wound. Does a man in a desert drink one sip of water and then reject further drinks from the same cup? If so he is not really thirsty.

God has given you agency, you can choose what to believe, think and feel. God did not host a lottery to see who is saved and who is damned. We can choose to believe and repent and lay hold on Christs suffering on our behalf so that we can be reconciled to God. God is trustworthy so there is nothing to fear or doubt from him. If we repent and follow his commandments we can have full confidence in him. But God will save none who cannot humble themselves and believe truth that comes from him.

[MrG]

Its the page after the end of the Pearl of great price that bugs me too

[MrG]

But seriously my point there is that the LDS Church may have more scripture but it still ends somewhere.

I would hope that those like myself that believe the Bible contains all true scripture would actually say that Jesus is enough rather than the Bible. If someone just had one book of the Bible that communicates

faith in Jesus then I would say for the sake of salvation or eternal life, that is enough too.

[canard78]

As an active LDS I refute both your title and your opening post.

Matthew 25:

31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

...

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So in Christ's last parable he gives his disciples the essential keys to eternal life. He tells them on his return he will gather all nations and separate the righteous from the unrighteous.

What great obedience have these qualifiers demonstrated? Extra obedience? Special covenants? Some great additional religious insights?

Nope. Quiet simple service to those in need. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

No further qualifications mentioned.

We may well discover that the entire purpose of our additional LDS scripture and ongoing revelation is that we are in fact those who needed extra prodding and cajoling to get us mobilised into serving, giving, sharing.

You mention your confusion at a belief in a God whose mouth is closed up after the book of Revelation. I wonder at your presumption that this all-powerful deity is so limited that he's only able to deliver this further revelation to less than 0.5% of his children.

Clearly God has been able to continue speaking to his children before, during and after the Bible's production. Confucius, Plato, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Pope Francis, Gandhi. All are among God's inspired messengers. Not to send some new message to fill in what you describe as the holes that otherwise limit mankind's ability to progress to godliness but to remind us of what He's been trying to remind us of all along. "Be excellent to each other."

[canard78]

But seriously my point there is that the LDS Church may have more scripture but it still ends somewhere.

I would hope that those like myself that believe the Bible contains all true scripture would actually say that Jesus is enough rather than the Bible. If someone just had one book of the Bible that communicates

faith in Jesus then I would say for the sake of salvation or eternal life, that is enough too.

Joseph Smith would be inclined to agree with you. Unfortunately some of the members of the church he established choose to ignore the founding leader of it:

A report of a speech given by Joseph Smith in Washington DC:

"He said very little of rewards and punishments; but one conclusion, from what he did say, was irresistible—he contended throughout, that everything which had a beginning must have an ending; and consequently if the punishment of man commenced in the next world, it must, according to his logic and belief have an end... and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved.

There was much in his precepts, if they were followed, that would soften the asperities of man towards man, and that would tend to make him a more rational being than he is generally found to be. There was no violence, no fury, no denunciation. His religion appears to be the religion of meekness, lowliness, and mild persuasion."

The account was partially quoted in the June 1994 Ensign:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=180&sourceId=d486425e0848b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD#footnote15

The whole letter is worth reading. You can read the original History of the Church entry here: https://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/4/5.html

[urroner]

You'll recognize this as the record with Moses where the Lord told him what to do and he went out and he gathered seventy men together...And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders; and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease (Numbers 11:25). But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad; and the spirit rested upon them;and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle; and they prophesied in the camp (v.26). And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said,Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp (v.27). And Joshua the son of Nun, the

servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them (v.28). And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! (v.29).

And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel (v.30).

I have often heard, one time first hand from an Apostle, that there are many revelations the Church is ready to give to the members, but we are not ready. I have also heard that if we live our lives righteously, we would have to wait for these releases, we could be receiving our own revelation/scriptures, meant fur us and our callings and duties specifically and no other. I also often think that receiving this revelation depends no upon how well we keep the commandments, since a slothful servant will keep a commandment, rather, it how we abide by the principle the commandment is based upon. Learning to obey the commandments teaches us the principles that commandment is based upon. Once we abide by the principle the commandment is based on, we start becoming spiritual adults. When we become spiritual adults, the Lord can reveal us things not in the scriptures or in a way which help us better understand the scriptures.

[MrG]

Thanks Canard, appreciate the points!

[danielwoods]

The question I have for bible followers is this. When will it be enough time that God will speak again and commission new prophets and renew his word? If 2000 years is not enough, will 3000 years be good enough? Perhaps 4000 years? Maybe 5000 years? Perhaps when you die and go to heaven, perhaps then you will ask Jesus to clear up some confusion. Do you intend to ask him some clarifying questions when you get to heaven and lay claim upon his mercy?

There isn't any need for OT prophets anymore. John the Baptist was the last one. Now, the spirit resides in all believers through the work that Jesus did.

As to your last question, the moment we are free from this body we will know, as we are known.

After Jesus forgives you and welcomes you into his kingdom do you intend to ask him some questions or do you intend to remain in ignorance and not rock the boat?

Jesus has already forgiven us, and we stand before God with his righteousness now.

Edited August 6, 2013 by danielwoods

[Questing Beast]

...

If you haven't guessed it, when I was a teenager and I finished the Bible, I was not in total despair. Thankfully I had access to the Book of Mormon too!!. I read that awesome book quite quickly and loved every page of it. I also quickly read the Doctrine and Covenants of the church as well. I read the rest of the scriptures that the LDS church prints too. And guess what my reaction was I read those? Yep, I wanted more.

...

It took me a little longer to read the whole Bible, and Book of Mormon, and a little longer yet to get through the Doctrine and Covenants. Somewhere in there I fitted in the Pearl of Great Price. I read the BoM many times, the whole Bible a couple of times through, and the D&C twice, iirc.

We are told to "sup from the scriptures daily". In other words, keep reading the same words again and again until we drop dead. After more than two dozen full readings of the BoM, I couldn't anymore. Not enough endurance I guess. Boredom is a bugbear with me. Something new will hold my attention. Something old-hat not so much.

Your comparison between Infinite and finite authors is apt and mirrors my own pov. I see no reasonableness in the assertion that there are "hidden meanings" in the scriptures and the temple ordinances. Once you've got them down, even memorized, any "hidden meaning", or "greater knowledge" comes from your own mind pondering where those words/ordinances lead you. The words themselves are simply the same old words. New words would be "nice". I'm not waiting anymore, though....

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

End of that book, given only to John to write. Now at the end OT the OT it say, "End of the Prophets", but that was added by KJV folks.

[stemelbow]

Scripture don't save us.

It might be better in a sense if we didn't have scriptures at all. We wouldn't be so enlightened as to the things of God without them and God couldn't hold us accountable. Many people have lived on this earth without the scriptures and some of them will probably end up in a more furnished mansion than I.

[3DOP]

"The End"? That's just seems too stupid.

Call for references. My Protestant Bibles are...I don't know where. My Catholic Bibles don't say, "The End". What Bible published by who say "The End"? Boy I don't remember ever reading anything like that...I'm not saying you're wrong but I think I would have noticed.

[strappinglad]

How many times have we been criticized by those who claim the verse in Rev. that says not to add to the word means there should be no BoM ? In essence , they demand a " The End " .

[canard78]

"The End"? That's just seems too stupid.

Call for references. My Protestant Bibles are...I don't know where. My Catholic Bibles don't say, "The End". What Bible published by who say "The End"? Boy I don't remember ever reading anything like that...I'm not saying you're wrong but I think I would have noticed.

Ironically it's at the end of the LDS edition of the KJV of the Bible:

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The End

Edited August 7, 2013 by canard78

[Damien the Leper]

As an active LDS I refute both your title and your opening post.

Matthew 25:

So in Christ's last parable he gives his disciples the essential keys to eternal life. He tells them on his return he will gather all nations and separate the righteous from the unrighteous.

What great obedience have these qualifiers demonstrated? Extra obedience? Special covenants? Some great additional religious insights?

Nope. Quiet simple service to those in need. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

No further qualifications mentioned.

We may well discover that the entire purpose of our additional LDS scripture and ongoing revelation is that we are in fact those who needed extra prodding and cajoling to get us mobilised into serving, giving, sharing.

You mention your confusion at a belief in a God whose mouth is closed up after the book of Revelation. I wonder at your presumption that this all-powerful deity is so limited that he's only able to deliver this further revelation to less than 0.5% of his children.

Clearly God has been able to continue speaking to his children before, during and after the Bible's production. Confucius, Plato, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Pope Francis, Gandhi. All are among God's inspired messengers. Not to send some new message to fill in what you describe as the holes that otherwise limit mankind's ability to progress to godliness but to remind us of what He's been trying to remind us of all along. "Be excellent to each other."

Primo solid doctrine. +20

[Damien the Leper]

"The End"? That's just seems too stupid.

Call for references. My Protestant Bibles are...I don't know where. My Catholic Bibles don't say, "The End". What Bible published by who say "The End"? Boy I don't remember ever reading anything like that...I'm not saying you're wrong but I think I would have noticed.

It's definitely not in my ESV or St. Joseph's NASB.

[Damien the Leper]

Ironically it's at the end of the LDS edition of the KJV of the Bible:

That's heresy and in violation of what Revelation says about adding to the book.

[Damien the Leper]

What the Bible teaches about salvation and what saves us is beyond sufficient. However, I do need to be better about taking Communion as it is part of church Canon Law...

[ChristKnight]

What the Bible teaches about salvation and what saves us is beyond sufficient. However, I do need to be better about taking Communion as it is part of church Canon Law...

Which Church are you a member of, if you don't mind me asking?

[Damien the Leper]

Which Church are you a member of, if you don't mind me asking?

Not technically a member of any church but I describe myself as Anglo-Roman.

[Maidservant]

"Be excellent to each other."

he he. One of the pivotal movies of my life.

[canard78]

he he. One of the pivotal movies of my life.

My wife says that the moment Joan of Arc looks up from her knees and sees the shining Keanu Reeves reaching out to her was also the day that she (my wife) decided prayer was probably worth trying. Just in case...

[kassie]

But seriously my point there is that the LDS Church may have more scripture but it still ends somewhere.

I would hope that those like myself that believe the Bible contains all true scripture would actually say that Jesus is enough rather than the Bible. If someone just had one book of the Bible that communicates

faith in Jesus then I would say for the sake of salvation or eternal life, that is enough too.

The Catholic Church gave the Bible to the world. Either they are the True Church or we are. There is no middle ground. (Read "A Marvelous Work and A Wonder"). There was no bible until Gutenberg invented the printing press. For 1494 years after the death of Christ it was all oral stories. How many times has it been translated from Greek and Aramaic to this language and that language to another language. We LDS believe in the continuity of scripture, that the canon is open, that God can speak to any of us at any time in history! There is a great breath of relief in that for me. Even Peter said "

2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

I believe we NEED the Church to interpret scripture for us through modern day prophets, for otherwise we are doing exactly what Peter warned us about.

[Calm]

There was no bible until Gutenberg invented the printing press. For 1494 years after the death of Christ it was all oral stories.

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but there are handwritten texts that date much closer to the death of Christ than 1527 AD. The Letters of Paul and others and the Gospels were written down, not transmitted orally. And if by the "Bible" you mean the canon of scripture, that was in place a lot earlier as well, off the top of my head about 400 years after Christ. Edited August 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

The Catholic Church gave the Bible to the world. Either they are the True Church or we are. There is no middle ground. (Read "A Marvelous Work and A Wonder"). There was no bible until Gutenberg invented the printing press. For 1494 years after the death of Christ it was all oral stories. How many times has it been translated from Greek and Aramaic to this language and that language to another language. We LDS believe in the continuity of scripture, that the canon is open, that God can speak to any of us at any time in history! There is a great breath of relief in that for me. Even Peter said "

2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

I believe we NEED the Church to interpret scripture for us through modern day prophets, for otherwise we are doing exactly what Peter warned us about.

Where to start... This reminds me of some the Mormon.org answers.

No bible until Gutenberg? What were they reading before then? You don't need a printing press to create a readable book. It wasn't "all oral stories."

Also, the idea that we need the church to interpret scripture.

Hugh Nibley in Temple and Cosmos

There's no office in the Church that qualifies the holder to give the official interpretation of the Church. We're to read the scriptures for ourselves, as guided by the Spirit.

Joseph Smith himself often disagreed with various of his brethren on different points, yet he never cracked down on them, saying they'd better change this or that, or else. He disagreed with Parley P. Pratt on a number of things, and also with Brigham Young on various things.

http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=103&id=1154

As did Elder Uchtdorf:

"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth."

So how can we find truth?

I believe that our Father in Heaven is pleased with His children when they use their talents and mental faculties to earnestly discover truth. Over the centuries many wise men and women—through logic, reason, scientific inquiry, and, yes, through inspiration—have discovered truth. These discoveries have enriched mankind, improved our lives, and inspired joy, wonder, and awe."

Elder Uchtdorf

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng