British Pageant

[MrG]

If the sole purpose of people is to get LDS to stop being LDS, that is anti-mormon. If the primary focus of their attempts are to convert them to Christ (as they understand that) then I don't see that as anti-mormon any more than an LDS missionary teaching someone he knew was Catholic or Buddhist or Baptist or whatever in hopes that they would convert to the LDS faith is anti-whatever.

I can never understand those who spend so much time on trying to destroy someone else's faith instead of simply witnessing the truth and joy of their own....if only because it is likely much more effective if you are actually trying to convert someone and not just make them miserable.

Its by far the 2nd, though sometimes that involves mingling with the first. But the goal is always the 2nd.

My fear is that if someone leaves Mormonism because of historical issues in Mormonism etc they are likely to become an atheist. If they leave because of theological issues they are likely to become a Christian (I think), I appreciate the issue on whether Mormons are Christian is a big discussion and I am not trying to be provocative there. However this is the reason why my ministry in general focuses more in the theological, but a little on the other stuff too.

So anyway in my mind to simply have someone leave Mormonism is not really much of a good thing if they lose all faith in Christ, in fact its not a good thing at all, so I would say the 2nd is our goal.

[Alan]

So anyway in my mind to simply have someone leave Mormonism is not really much of a good thing if they lose all faith in Christ, in fact its not a good thing at all.....

I fail to see how picketing a pageant contributes to this. Surely it would be better to picket a Sunstone conference.

So, according to your statement, you would rather Mormons stay LDS than leave and go atheist. Why not encourage Mormons to stay LDS then?

Edited August 8, 2013 by Alan

[MrG]

Because I would MUCH rather they leave to become Christians (again I appreciate thats a big discussion). Im an idealist.

Also I have been to Utah 3 times doing this type of thing at Manti etc. Though sunstone could be fun, these trips are far from free though!

[LordUther]

Its by far the 2nd, though sometimes that involves mingling with the first. But the goal is always the 2nd.

My fear is that if someone leaves Mormonism because of historical issues in Mormonism etc they are likely to become an atheist. If they leave because of theological issues they are likely to become a Christian (I think), I appreciate the issue on whether Mormons are Christian is a big discussion and I am not trying to be provocative there. However this is the reason why my ministry in general focuses more in the theological, but a little on the other stuff too.

So anyway in my mind to simply have someone leave Mormonism is not really much of a good thing if they lose all faith in Christ, in fact its not a good thing at all, so I would say the 2nd is our goal.

You didn't answer my question in the predestination thread, I'm assuming it got lost in all the too & fro on there, so I'll repost it here...it was in response to your "it all looks fine" response.

It seems a rather sad doctrine to me, giving no hope to anyone but those elect that God has chosen to save.

A genuine question here, and I admit my understanding of this doctrine comes totally from what I have read in this wiki answer. If God has already decided who is to be saved and no man can thwart that, why do you feel the need to preach the gospel to others? What good can it do them? If I have been elected to saved then I will be saved, if I have not then surely it doesn't matter what church I belong to, my damnation will be the same.

[Alan]

Because I would MUCH rather they leave to become Christians

Now we get to the nub of it!

Thought as much. For all the nice words and "reasonableness", this statement betrays the true motive.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Alan

[cdowis]

A genuine question here, and I admit my understanding of this doctrine comes totally from what I have read in this wiki answer. If God has already decided who is to be saved and no man can thwart that, why do you feel the need to preach the gospel to others? What good can it do them? If I have been elected to saved then I will be saved, if I have not then surely it doesn't matter what church I belong to, my damnation will be the same.

You are assuming that the elect will be saved regardless, but this cannot happen if they do not hear the gospel. The salvation of the elect is based on their hearing the good news, and, being the elect, accepting it.

It is not a doctrine of "hopelessness". You cannot know whether or not you are one of the elect, so just pretend that you are.

Edited August 8, 2013 by cdowis

[Calm]

Now we get to the nub of it!

Thought as much. For all the nice words and "reasonableness", this statement betrays the true motive.

It wasn't exactly hidden.

He wants people to convert to his faith, we want people to convert to ours. Are we unreasonable for this "true motive"?

Edited August 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

You cannot know whether or not you are one of the elect

CFR this is one of the beliefs....

[Tacenda]

Its by far the 2nd, though sometimes that involves mingling with the first. But the goal is always the 2nd.

My fear is that if someone leaves Mormonism because of historical issues in Mormonism etc they are likely to become an atheist. If they leave because of theological issues they are likely to become a Christian (I think), I appreciate the issue on whether Mormons are Christian is a big discussion and I am not trying to be provocative there. However this is the reason why my ministry in general focuses more in the theological, but a little on the other stuff too.

So anyway in my mind to simply have someone leave Mormonism is not really much of a good thing if they lose all faith in Christ, in fact its not a good thing at all, so I would say the 2nd is our goal.

This is probably redundant, but what would the LDS need to do to become acceptable as Christians? Get rid of polygamy in the hereafter? Throw 132 out of the D&C. Or what? Because they believe Jesus is God. So I can't see what they're doing wrong as far as doctrine beside the ones mentioned. There are some Christians that believe work is needed for Grace. So what is the crux?

[Calm]

Because they believe Jesus is God.

We certainly believe we are Christians.

[canard78]

Technically, both options are wrong and one should say copies of the Book of Mormon.

Do you know I was mulling that over in my head.

Copies of Jane Eyre... not Jane Eyres

Copies of Hamlet... not Hamlets

The second one would be a box of cigars where I'm from.

[canard78]

I should very much hope that you are anti-people-who-celebrate-indecent-public-fountains.

That too!

I've just seen your signature:

"i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon"

Was that really what they said? I might have to frame it.

[LordUther]

You are assuming that the elect will be saved regardless, but this cannot happen if they do not hear the gospel. The salvation of the elect is based on their hearing the good news, and, being the elect, accepting it.

It is not a doctrine of "hopelessness". You cannot know whether or not you are one of the elect, so just pretend that you are.

The wiki article quoted, which MrG says "all looks fine" to him says this:

"Irresistible grace," also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."^{[36][unreliable source]}

*My bold added*

These bolded sections definitely teach that if someone is of the elect the Holy Spirit will call to them, that they it will overcome any resistance & that anyone whom God has chosen to save WILL be saved. If this is true there is no need for proselytising for they will be guided & find there own way to Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.

And it is a doctrine of hopelessness because always in the back of my mind will be the doubt, am I or aren't I? What if after all this belief & faith I don't win the eternal lottery? What a sad way to live, a life of pretence.

[cdowis]

You will discover that I have a very dry sense of humor.

[MrG]

Just a quick note regarding the predestination thread, I haven't forgot and am really looking forward to getting into that just had a busy couple of days, thanks

[LordUther]

You will discover that I have a very dry sense of humor.

Aw man! did I waste a perfectly good response on a jest...I'm going to go kick puppy!

[canard78]

Now we get to the nub of it!

Thought as much. For all the nice words and "reasonableness", this statement betrays the true motive.

Why do you send teenagers on missions from your ward? To go and have nice chats with the locals? Or to convert from their faith (even if already Christian) and to come and join Mormonism.

At least Mr G. is being honest about his intentions. Given that's exactly why we have 70,000 people out I can't really see this being a valid criticism?

(P.S. - please can you let me know the date of the Mattsson fireside you attended? You never told us when it was. Thanks)

Edited August 8, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

You will discover that I have a very dry sense of humor.

Which is so dry it's sometimes a teeny bit rude. But I suppose that's the downside of dry humour on a message board. It's impossible to read a twinkle in someone's eye or a wry smile at the corner of the mouth.

I'll try to imagine you with one of those when reading all your posts in future. It may save me some 'heartburn.' (and if you can imagine this just said with a slightly sarky tone with a hint of humour that would also be appreciated).

[Alan]

Why do you send teenagers on missions from your ward? To go and have nice chats with the locals? Or to convert from their faith (even if already Christian) and to come and join Mormonism.

At least Mr G. is being honest about his intentions.

Having read "his" website I don't believe he is being entirely honest in his intentions.**

Also, I was actually at the Pageant and know what I saw.

We don't send out missionaries to carry plackards and picket functions of other faiths.

**Please note cannard78 that I said "believe". Don't ask me to produce evidence for what I believe. Opinions are opinions, arrived at for all kinds of reasons. For me.... I saw them in action with my own eyes, and I have read much of the content on their website. That is the reason for my beliefs and opinions regarding this group.

[volgadon]

I've just seen your signature:

"i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon"

Was that really what they said? I might have to frame it.

I changed nothing. She really wrote that, caps and all.

[MrG]

Having read "his" website I don't believe he is being entirely honest in his intentions.**

Also, I was actually at the Pageant and know what I saw.

We don't send out missionaries to carry plackards and picket functions of other faiths.

**Please note cannard78 that I said "believe". Don't ask me to produce evidence for what I believe. Opinions are opinions, arrived at for all kinds of reasons. For me.... I saw them in action with my own eyes, and I have read much of the content on their website. That is the reason for my beliefs and opinions regarding this group.

Thats all no problem at all Alan, disagreeing in this environment is part of the fun, if you did see us you will know that there was no shouting, or aggression to any extent. Yes there were signs and flyers and people seeking to speak to people. I make no secret whatsoever of my intentions as you obviously know from my site

Right, now that predestination thread......

[JGourlay]

The wiki article quoted, which MrG says "all looks fine" to him says this:

*My bold added*

These bolded sections definitely teach that if someone is of the elect the Holy Spirit will call to them, that they it will overcome any resistance & that anyone whom God has chosen to save WILL be saved. If this is true there is no need for proselytising for they will be guided & find there own way to Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.

And it is a doctrine of hopelessness because always in the back of my mind will be the doubt, am I or aren't I? What if after all this belief & faith I don't win the eternal lottery? What a sad way to live, a life of pretence.

[JGourlay]

There is one 'small' matter to consider about irresistable grace - the Bible teaches it.

[Daniel Peterson]

It seems to me that there's a substantial and obvious difference between attempting to convert everybody to your point of view, on the one hand, and, on the other, deliberately targeting a specific group for conversion -- and particularly so if the targeting is directed, to any significant degree, to converting that specific group away from its particular viewpoint.

The first is evangelism. The second rapidly becomes anti-[whatever-the-targeted-group-is].

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems to me that there's a substantial and obvious difference between attempting to convert everybody to your point of view, on the one hand, and, on the other, deliberately targeting a specific group for conversion -- and particularly so if the targeting is directed, to any significant degree, to converting that specific group away from its particular viewpoint.

The first is evangelism. The second rapidly becomes anti-[whatever-the-targeted-group-is].

Daniel characteristically brings crystal-like clarity and eminent sense to this matter.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Scott Lloyd