Manuscript Mentioned In The Ny Times Article

[Calm]

The Spaulding manuscript is not hidden. It is in the possession of Oberlin College - the same school Lorenzo Snow graduated from. Come visit some time.

No, he means the second lost manuscript that is almost identical to the BoM.

http://en.fairmormon...ding_manuscript

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript/Second_manuscript

There are claims of what the manuscript said that were much closer to the BoM (such as names IIRC) than what was later found to be so when the actual manuscript was found so some have claimed there was another manuscript though there is no evidence for it beyond those claims, IIRC.

Edited July 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[Bikeemikey]

Even if the gold plates of the Book of Mormon were revealed today for all the world to see, very few would believe they were authentic; or if accepted as authentic, none but the Latter-day Saints would believe Joseph Smith's translation was correct and accurate. Additionally, in our world people trample over sacred truths and holy things all the time. If a man such as Brother Mattsson was not spiritually and emotionally prepared to receive some great spiritual truth, it would do more harm than good to reveal those things to him in his darkened, spiritually unprepared state of mind. Deeply sacred things are meant for those who prepared to receive them; they are not meant for the eyes and ears of those who are spiritually unprepared to comprehend and appreciate said deeply sacred things.

So if the Golden Plates were revealed today many people would not join the church?

Of course that is correct. We have many early additions of Christian writing and still people deny the divine nature of Christ...

So what?

Only religious believers believe religious claims. That has always been the way it is. That does not mean harm will be done in showing him a book he wont believe.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The NY Times article mentions a manuscript that L Tom Perry brought to Sweden:

Does anyone have a idea of what this document might be? Could it be the lost 116 pages? A translation of the sealed portion? New revelations to answer the troubling questions?

Phaedrus

The Church is established there, so maybe the answer to some "crisis" created by the Internet? The unsealed portion of something that would make me happy would be an unsealed, freshly made Stake n Shake burger.

[Buckeye]

No, he means the second lost manuscript that is almost identical to the BoM.

http://en.fairmormon...ding_manuscript

http://en.fairmormon...cond_manuscript

There are claims of what the manuscript said that were much closer to the BoM (such as names IIRC) than what was later found to be so when the actual manuscript was found so some have claimed there was another manuscript though there is no evidence for it beyond those claims, IIRC.

Thanks! I'll search my sock drawer for it tonight. There's all kinds of missing stuff in there.

[teddyaware]

So if the Golden Plates were revealed today many people would not join the church?

Of course that is correct. We have many early additions of Christian writing and still people deny the divine nature of Christ...

So what?

Only religious believers believe religious claims. That has always been the way it is. That does not mean harm will be done in showing him a book he wont believe.

Please read my previous post just a little above this one. In it I specifically address your questions.

Edited July 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[why me]

"Perhaps . . . or perhaps . . ." This sort of idle speculation, assuming the very worst of Elder Mattsson, is unkind and unhelpful.

I don't see it that way at all. I do see it as questioning why he did not produce the manuscript. We do see that Hans did go to the papers and got some publicity. I am sure that Perry's manuscript would have ended up on the internet or in the papers too.

[ERayR]

I only know of the one at Oberlin. I've never heard of a "lost" version. Perhaps it was given to Mrs. Harris?

They say one has done a poor job at humor when the recipient takes you seriously. Perhaps it is just that you have not heard the LDS critics claim, after the one was found and they could no longer get any milage from it, that there were two manuscripts, one of which remains lost.

[Stroopwafel]

When people don't want to believe something because doing so would be too inconvenient, ... or if believing that thing would cause them to feel pressure to make decisions they don't want to make and do, they will find a way to dismiss and reject the thing they don't want to believe.

I hope you see how this applies to believers as well, i.e., you are not immune to this yourself.

And make no mistake about it -- if the Book of Mormon plates were to be shown to the world today, amongst all the overwrought cries of fraud, fake, forgery and flimflam would also be heard the anguished protestations of those religionists who already "know for sure" Mormonism is false, and so without a moment's hesitation they would cry out satanic deception, sorcery, occult works of darkness and imitation diabolical miracle!

Those "religionists" are hardly a reference for intellectual honesty... Still, I don't doubt that there would be people initially calling it a fraud/fake/forgery/what have you. However, since we would actually have a physical evidence, one that could be verified and compared against another work which purportedly is an exact translation, in the end anyone with a glimpse of intellectual honesty would have to agree to at least a few basic facts: the gold plates are an authentic ancient artifact, JS translated said artifact accurately without any form of training, etc. Though you could still have people doubting the truth claims of the Church even after being presented with all this, they would not be able to deny these facts.

While it's true that those who disbelieved the prophecy had to choice but to admit that it actually did happened, as they crouched down in fear, nevertheless, it wasn't too long after that stupendous event that they disbelieved the testimony of their own eyes, for Mormon tells us that they discounted and disbelieved the great signs and miracles they had seen by...

"...Imagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and deceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing." (3 Nephi 2:2)

The last phrase of the above verse is of utmost importance to understand. It seems that when unprepared people receive miraculous signs, rather than helping them gain a testimony of Christ, the import of these undeserved signs is all too often ignored, ironically only serving to further harden the hearts of these people against the Lord and His gospel. And so we can see that they would have been better off to have not seen the sign, for their end is worse than the beginning.

I can see how people may come retrospectively to doubt some significant experience they would have had, and let's even suppose for a moment that indeed "Satan does get possession of the hearts of individuals, insomuch that he blinds their eyes and leads them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ is a foolish and a vain thing." Is Satan so powerful that he can make someone genuinely deny a scientifically proven fact? That's what I'm talking about here. Not a subjective experience which one could find 100s of ways to account for it or rationalize it away, but rather an evidence that can be touched, felt, scrutinized, such that the conclusions reached by one individual can be reached independently by another, and so corroborate the claims made.

And no, even though what I just wrote sounds a lot like Moroni's promise, it is not the same thing at all. I'm not talking about a spiritual and subjective (by this I mean personal) confirmation about something in particular, but rather about something that could be seen and assessed by other people as well.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't see it that way at all. I do see it as questioning why he did not produce the manuscript. We do see that Hans did go to the papers and got some publicity. I am sure that Perry's manuscript would have ended up on the internet or in the papers too.

May I ask as one having (as I once did) the faith of a child. Why conceal anything that comes from The Lord?

[teddyaware]

May I ask as one having (as I once did) the faith of a child. Why conceal anything that comes from The Lord?

Go ask Him. He's the one of whom it is said:

"114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;" (D&C 76)

Edited July 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I hope you see how this applies to believers as well, i.e., you are not immune to this yourself.

Those "religionists" are hardly a reference for intellectual honesty... Still, I don't doubt that there would be people initially calling it a fraud/fake/forgery/what have you. However, since we would actually have a physical evidence, one that could be verified and compared against another work which purportedly is an exact translation, in the end anyone with a glimpse of intellectual honesty would have to agree to at least a few basic facts: the gold plates are an authentic ancient artifact, JS translated said artifact accurately without any form of training, etc. Though you could still have people doubting the truth claims of the Church even after being presented with all this, they would not be able to deny these facts.

I can see how people may come retrospectively to doubt some significant experience they would have had, and let's even suppose for a moment that indeed "Satan does get possession of the hearts of individuals, insomuch that he blinds their eyes and leads them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ is a foolish and a vain thing." Is Satan so powerful that he can make someone genuinely deny a scientifically proven fact? That's what I'm talking about here. Not a subjective experience which one could find 100s of ways to account for it or rationalize it away, but rather an evidence that can be touched, felt, scrutinized, such that the conclusions reached by one individual can be reached independently by another, and so corroborate the claims made.

And no, even though what I just wrote sounds a lot like Moroni's promise, it is not the same thing at all. I'm not talking about a spiritual and subjective (by this I mean personal) confirmation about something in particular, but rather about something that could be seen and assessed by other people as well.

There is no doubt whatsoever but that the Lord, if He wanted to, could easily set up such an evidentiary demonstration that many rational men could not deny. But then perfect knowledge would prematurely supplant the divinely ordained process that calls upon God's earthly children to grow in faith and knowledge till the perfect day; God's purposes and wisdom would be overthrown in such a scenario -- a calamity of infinite and eternal proportions, not unlike fallen man being given free access the fruit of the tree of life while still stained by sin before the trial of their faith is complete.

That being said, I still assert that if Satan has a strong enough hold on the hearts of the children of men, he can deceive those so captivated into disbelieving anything, denying the truth even if they were eye witnesses to the Lord Jesus Christ raising the rotting corpse of Lazarus from the dead.

Edited July 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm not sure that Palmer 'tabled' anything. But could be wrong.

My mistake, I meant Perry, and have edited to correct that.

[Robert F. Smith]

Quote

We are going to hear more about this as time goes by.

.....................................

'This' being the hidden manuscript or just people leaving for historical reasons.

......................................

I was referring to the whole Perry, Palmer, Mattsson, Dehlin miasma. It hasn't played out yet. Dig?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

I have it on good authority that it is the original Necronomicon. It will drive the apostates insane and lead them to Cthulhu worship. Problem solved. At least until the stars are right and Ry'leh rises from the deep,

[canard78]

The manuscript (see the OP) contains highlights of posts in this forum.

It was a joke.

Ahah - sorry, got it. A bit slow today. That's actually quite funny. Sorry for making you explain a joke.

[canard78]

Not if the Spirit whispered to Elder Perry that the contents of the manuscript would not help Brother Mattsson but only make things worse. Perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson might likely blab the contents of the manuscript all over the place, when the things written therein were meant only for Brother Mattson's eyes to only. Or perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson was further on down the road to disaffection and eventual apostasy than first thought.

Perhaps...

I think the way that you think God interacts with the apostles and the way I think He interacts with them is very different.

[canard78]

Quote

We are going to hear more about this as time goes by.

I was referring to the whole Perry, Palmer, Mattson, Dehlin miasma. It hasn't played out yet. Dig?

Capisce

Edited July 24, 2013 by canard78

[teddyaware]

Perhaps...

I think the way that you think God interacts with the apostles and the way I think He interacts with them is very different.

Please elaborate.