Manuscript Mentioned In The Ny Times Article

[phaedrus ut]

The NY Times article mentions a manuscript that L Tom Perry brought to Sweden:

He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask.

Does anyone have a idea of what this document might be? Could it be the lost 116 pages? A translation of the sealed portion? New revelations to answer the troubling questions?

Phaedrus

[cinepro]

Without knowing which specific "doubt" he was referring to, there's no way to know. I doubt they're preparing anything "encyclopedic" that covers the top 10 or 15 issues or anything like that.

[ERayR]

Why would he be carrying a manuscript around in his briefcase. Sounds to much like rumor.

[phaedrus ut]

Why would he be carrying a manuscript around in his briefcase. Sounds to much like rumor.

The story of the manuscript is mentioned by other attendees at the same meeting.

[canard78]

Why would he be carrying a manuscript around in his briefcase. Sounds to much like rumor.

Whose rumour? Are you presuming Elder Perry or Elder Mattsson is spreading an unfounded rumour, just for effect? What about the other people who were there?

[Robert F. Smith]

The NY Times article mentions a manuscript that L Tom Perry brought to Sweden:

Does anyone have a idea of what this document might be? Could it be the lost 116 pages? A translation of the sealed portion? New revelations to answer the troubling questions?

Phaedrus

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Elder Perry had a printout of a paper which happened to deal with some of Elder Mattsson's concerns. Perry may have had someone in the Historical Dept recommend something. On arrival in Sweden, and after conversation with Mattsson, it may have become apparent to Perry that Mattsson's problem with such issues went deeper than simple ignorance of some particular historical question -- especially if Mattsson had been exposed to the systematically incorrect information in Grant Palmer's book -- which covers such a broad spectrum of issues. Perry may have tabled his effort early on, and allowed Mattsson to drift in the direction he seemed wont to go (stew in his own juices, perhaps). If it had been me, I would simply have brought a copy of the FARMS Review which deals effectively with Palmer's book and the pseudo-issues which it raises.

We are going to hear more about this as time goes by.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[canard78]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Elder Perry had a printout of a paper which happened to deal with some of Elder Mattsson's concerns. Perry may have had someone in the Historical Dept recommend something. On arrival in Sweden, and after conversation with Mattsson, it may have become apparent to Perry that Mattsson's problem with such issues went deeper than simple ignorance of some particular historical question -- especially if Mattsson had been exposed the systematically incorrect information in Grant Palmer's book -- which covers such a broad spectrum of issues. Palmer may have tabled his effort early on, and allowed Mattsson to drift in the direction he seemed wont to go (stew in his own juices, perhaps). If it had been me, I would simply have brought a copy of the FARMS Review which deals effectively with Palmer's book and the pseudo-issues which it raises.

He also read Bushman, Quinn and others. I'm not sure that Palmer 'tabled' anything. But could be wrong.

We are going to hear more about this as time goes by.

'This' being the hidden manuscript or just people leaving for historical reasons.

To tell an Area Authority and a Stake President "I have something in my bag that will solve all your issues" but to never even share a draft seems a little unhelpful.

[cdowis]

Itn't it obvious? Highlights of comments in this forum.

Hello, Elder Perry.

[canard78]

Itn't it obvious? Highlights of comments in this forum.

Hello, Elder Perry.

A bit random. What context should I read this in?

[cdowis]

The manuscript (see the OP) contains highlights of posts in this forum.

It was a joke.

[teddyaware]

He also read Bushman, Quinn and others. I'm not sure that Palmer 'tabled' anything. But could be wrong.

'This' being the hidden manuscript or just people leaving for historical reasons.

To tell an Area Authority and a Stake President "I have something in my bag that will solve all your issues" but to never even share a draft seems a little unhelpful.

Not if the Spirit whispered to Elder Perry that the contents of the manuscript would not help Brother Mattsson but only make things worse. Perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson might likely blab the contents of the manuscript all over the place, when the things written therein were meant only for Brother Mattson's eyes to only. Or perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson was further on down the road to disaffection and eventual apostasy than first thought.

[Nevo]

Not if the Spirit whispered to Elder Perry that the contents of the manuscript would not help Brother Mattsson but only make things worse. Perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson might likely blab the contents of the manuscript all over the place, when the things written therein were meant only for Brother Mattson's eyes to only. Or perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson was further on down the road to disaffection and eventual apostasy than first thought.

"Perhaps . . . or perhaps . . ." This sort of idle speculation, assuming the very worst of Elder Mattsson, is unkind and unhelpful.

[Fifth Columnist]

I think the mystery manuscript was Rough Stone Rolling.

[Bikeemikey]

Not if the Spirit whispered to Elder Perry that the contents of the manuscript would not help Brother Mattsson but only make things worse. Perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson might likely blab the contents of the manuscript all over the place, when the things written therein were meant only for Brother Mattson's eyes to only. Or perhaps Elder Perry perceived Brother Mattsson was further on down the road to disaffection and eventual apostasy than first thought.

Because evidence that ones objections against the Church are wrong would obviously not help someone who has objections against the church?

[teddyaware]

"Perhaps . . . or perhaps . . ." This sort of idle speculation, assuming the very worst of Elder Mattsson, is unkind and unhelpful.

I assume no such thing. When someone assumes, they presume something is true without evidence. When I said perhaps I was only guessing at possibilities and not assuming any of those possibilities to necessarily be true. As for Brother Mattsson, I have great sympathy for him and his plight. There will likely be many in the challenging years to come who will release their grip on the iron rod of truth as a consequence of "the exceedingly great mist(s) of darkness" sent to try the faith and testimonies of the Latter-day Saints.

Edited July 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

He also read Bushman, Quinn and others. I'm not sure that Palmer 'tabled' anything. But could be wrong.

'This' being the hidden manuscript or just people leaving for historical reasons.

To tell an Area Authority and a Stake President "I have something in my bag that will solve all your issues" but to never even share a draft seems a little unhelpful.

I want what's in that bag!

[Tacenda]

I assume no such thing. When someone assumes, they presume something is true without evidence. When I sais perhaps I was only guessing at possibilities and not assuming any of those possibilities to necessarily be true. As for Brother Mattsson, I have great sympathy for him and his plight. There will likely be many in the challenging years to come who will release their grip on the iron rod of truth as a consequence of "the exceedingly great mist(s) of darkness" sent to try the faith and testimonies of the Latter-day Saints.

It's the tip of the iceberg, the saints out there that are struggling are below. You see a few that post on boards like this, and even then they have lurked for years, afraid of coming out of the closet, so to speak. But I'm sure the surge of missionary work will offset the exodus of this group. And the majority, I'm guessing, will stay for the long haul, too hard to leave with faithful family surrounding them. Or people just love the constructs of the church and how it enables them, or keeps people on a track of good living. But everyone is truly just seeing the tip of the iceberg IMO.

http://ts1.mm.bing.n...&h=178&c=7&rs=1

[teddyaware]

Because evidence that ones objections against the Church are wrong would obviously not help someone who has objections against the church?

Even if the gold plates of the Book of Mormon were revealed today for all the world to see, very few would believe they were authentic; or if accepted as authentic, none but the Latter-day Saints would believe Joseph Smith's translation was correct and accurate. Additionally, in our world people trample over sacred truths and holy things all the time. If a man such as Brother Mattsson was not spiritually and emotionally prepared to receive some great spiritual truth, it would do more harm than good to reveal those things to him in his darkened, spiritually unprepared state of mind. Deeply sacred things are meant for those who prepared to receive them; they are not meant for the eyes and ears of those who are spiritually unprepared to comprehend and appreciate said deeply sacred things.

Edited July 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

I think the mystery manuscript was Rough Stone Rolling.

Nope I think it was the lost Spaulding manuscript the Church has had hidden away for 200 years.

[teddyaware]

It's the tip of the iceberg, the saints out there that are struggling are below. You see a few that post on boards like this, and even then they have lurked for years, afraid of coming out of the closet, so to speak. But I'm sure the surge of missionary work will offset the exodus of this group. And the majority, I'm guessing, will stay for the long haul, too hard to leave with faithful family surrounding them. Or people just love the constructs of the church and how it enables them, or keeps people on a track of good living. But everyone is truly just seeing the tip of the iceberg IMO.

http://ts1.mm.bing.n...&h=178&c=7&rs=1

The people of this Church should not at all be surprised when deeply disturbing challenges to their testimonies appear on the scene. In Lehi's prophetic vision of the tree of life, he beheld "an exceedingly great mist of darkness (i.e. challenges to the saint's testimonies of the truth)" surround and envelope those who held their grip on the rod of iron. Those who continued to maintain there firm grip on the iron rod, and continued to press on in their quest to reach the now obscured tree of life, eventually immerged into a realm of light, life and joy. Meanwhile, those who allowed themselves to become frightened, perplexed and confused by the seemingly formidable challenges to their faith, represented by the exceedingly great mist of darkness, lost faith and let go of the iron rod to places and fates unknown.

These challenges to our testimonies are going to wax greater and greater in seeming convincing power and intensity, till only men and women who are prophets and prophetesses in their own right will be able to successfully navigate their way through the storm of controversy and contradiction. When those days are fully come, so called empirical evidence will be utterly impotent in the face of the raging storm; only direct personal revelation from God and His prophets will suffice

Edited July 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[Buckeye]

Nope I think it was the lost Spaulding manuscript the Church has had hidden away for 200 years.

The Spaulding manuscript is not hidden. It is in the possession of Oberlin College - the same school Lorenzo Snow graduated from. Come visit some time.

[Stroopwafel]

Even if the gold plates of the Book of Mormon were revealed today for all the world to see, very few would believe they were authentic, or if accepted as authentic, that Joseph Smith's translation was accurate.

This right there is a point of view I have a hard time understanding and cannot agree with at all.

Assuming that we would receive the actual gold plates--I mean the real deal--then actually showing that it is an ancient artifact should not be problematic at all in the first place! We do have the expertise to do just that, and prove it in a way that those who would still believe they are not authentic would do so in bad faith and would just look ridiculous.

Additionally, assuming the BofM is the correct translation, it should not be too difficult to show that the engraven text it contains corresponds to JS's work. It should in fact be fairly straightforward for any linguistic expert to figure out the words and their translation once they are given the material and the time. Also, in that context, issues such as those people have with the Book of Abraham should be non-existant since there would be no doubt we indeed have the complete material (assuming the gold plates would not be missing a few pages...).

Why in the world if we do have the true/authentic gold plates, JS's translation of them is accurate (it should be!), and all of this can be empirically proven (it should be!), then why in the world would you have people not believe that at least there is something to consider here... Honest, truth-seeking people are not confined within the Church. They are out there, even though some people might be shocked that in their quest for truth, they arrive at different conclusions.

Additionally, in our world people trample over sacred truths and holy things all the time. If a man such as Brother Mattsson was not spiritually and emotionally prepared to receive some great spiritual truth, it would do more harm than good to reveal those things to him in his darkened, spiritually unprepared state of mind. Deeply sacred things are meant for those who prepared to receive them; they are not meant for the eyes and ears of those who are spiritually unprepared to comprehend and appreciate said deeply sacred things.

Considering that Mattson was an AA, I wonder when can someone really be "spiritually and emotionally prepared to receive some great spiritual truth"? And I'm sure you hold the key to that question.

[teddyaware]

This right there is a point of view I have a hard time understanding and cannot agree with at all.

Assuming that we would receive the actual gold plates--I mean the real deal--then actually showing that it is an ancient artifact should not be problematic at all in the first place! We do have the expertise to do just that, and prove it in a way that those who would still believe they are not authentic would do so in bad faith and would just look ridiculous.

Additionally, assuming the BofM is the correct translation, it should not be too difficult to show that the engraven text it contains corresponds to JS's work. It should in fact be fairly straightforward for any linguistic expert to figure out the words and their translation once they are given the material and the time. Also, in that context, issues such as those people have with the Book of Abraham should be non-existant since there would be no doubt we indeed have the complete material (assuming the gold plates would not be missing a few pages...).

Why in the world if we do have the true/authentic gold plates, JS's translation of them is accurate (it should be!), and all of this can be empirically proven (it should be!), then why in the world would you have people not believe that at least there is something to consider here... Honest, truth-seeking people are not confined within the Church. They are out there, even though some people might be shocked that in their quest for truth, they arrive at different conclusions.

Considering that Mattson was an AA, I wonder when can someone really be "spiritually and emotionally prepared to receive some great spiritual truth"? And I'm sure you hold the key to that question.

When people don't want to believe something because doing so would be too inconvenient, unpopular, offence to their sensibilities, or if believing that thing would cause them to feel pressure to make decisions they don't want to make and do, they will find a way to dismiss and reject the thing they don't want to believe. Throw the wiles of Satan and His earthy propagandists into the mix, and then all bets are off. The adversary of men's souls is infinitely creative when it comes to what he would, no doubt, consider the fine arts of lying and deception.

Just take a look at those ancient religionists who didn't want to believe Jesus was the Christ: All manner of undeniable miracles were performed by the Saviour, but their stock in trade response to these powerful demonstrations of divine power and faith was to simply say that if he did actually work some sort of miracle, it was accomplished by the power of the devil.

And make no mistake about it -- if the Book of Mormon plates were to be shown to the world today, amongst all the overwrought cries of fraud, fake, forgery and flimflam would also be heard the anguished protestations of those religionists who already "know for sure" Mormonism is false, and so without a moment's hesitation they would cry out satanic deception, sorcery, occult works of darkness and imitation diabolical miracle!

It never ceases to amaze me that when Jesus raised the rotting corpse of his dear friend Lazarus from the dead, in full view of some of His enemies, the immediate response of those enemies there present was to say that the raising of Lazarus was the last straw their longsuffering backs could endure, and now they had no other choice but to see to it that Jesus was put to death for sure... "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:53)"

And let's not forget the fulfillment of Samuel the Lamanite's prophesied miracle of the day and night and the day as if there were no night, one of the greatest and most undeniable miracles of all recorded sacred history. While it's true that those who disbelieved the prophecy had to choice but to admit that it actually did happened, as they crouched down in fear, nevertheless, it wasn't too long after that stupendous event that they disbelieved the testimony of their own eyes, for Mormon tells us that they discounted and disbelieved the great signs and miracles they had seen by...

"...Imagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and deceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing." (3 Nephi 2:2)

The last phrase of the above verse is of utmost importance to understand. It seems that when unprepared people receive miraculous signs, rather than helping them gain a testimony of Christ, the import of these undeserved signs is all too often ignored, ironically only serving to further harden the hearts of these people against the Lord and His gospel. And so we can see that they would have been better off to have not seen the sign, for their end is worse than the beginning.

Edited July 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

The Spaulding manuscript is not hidden. It is in the possession of Oberlin College - the same school Lorenzo Snow graduated from. Come visit some time.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that since that one doesn't disprove the golden plates the critics are sure there is a lost one.

[Buckeye]

Are you sure? I was under the impression that since that one doesn't disprove the golden plates the critics are sure there is a lost one.

I only know of the one at Oberlin. I've never heard of a "lost" version. Perhaps it was given to Mrs. Harris?