Joseph Smith And Mary Elizabeth Lightner

[Senator]

There are just some things that don't make sense to us. We are required to do things that break our hearts and/or ruin our lives, but we must do them nevertheless. Some are just plain weird. I leave to you whether polygamy, especially as practiced by JSJr, is one or the other.

Adam and Eve were promised the world, and all they had to do was not touch the fruit of one tree. It makes no sense.

Abraham was promised land, prosperity, posterity, priesthood, fame . . . and all he had to do was forsake the g-ds of his ancestors . . . oh, and cut off the end of his manhood. It makes no sense.

Some couples in JSJr's day were promised eternal life, exaltation, kingdoms, principalities and powers . . . and all they had to do was agree that the woman would become JSJr's wife in some ill-defined way. It makes no sense.

It does make one wonder.

[Calm]

Well i guess it's just the plain thing that one man should have more than one wife that really bothers me.

I can understand that....

Perhaps dwelling on how a man (or woman as we now seal deceased women to all of their spouses) is to choose between two women he loved on earth at separate times due to the death of the first wife, women he both had children with, raised those children with, one wife he started out his life with, the other he ended mortality with...loving both of them deeply, fully committed to them.

How would you suggest he choose which to live with eternally and the other he says a sad goodbye to while she likely chooses from other men with whom she has no mortal history with to have her eternal marriage? Which does he say "I loved her more, sorry my life with you didn't mean as much to me no matter what struggles and blessings we lived through together?" I see it as pretty much the same, maybe even more painful than being told one can only keep the eternal family relationship (whatever that means in the eternities, I assume it means much, much more, not less than it does in mortality) with one of our children while the rest become to us the same as our friends and neighbours and individuals we have never met before, but now are one with God with through God's gift of the Atonement....which is of course magnificence and ultimate joy in itself...and yet we are told that in some way we can pile even more happiness and love on top of that through the eternal nature of families that exist in our current here and now.

And think of asking this of someone who is capable of infinite love, infinite patience, infinite understanding and knowledge, etc. with infinite time and resources so none of the issues of mortality such as jealousy, lack of time to spend with each, lack of comfort and security due to limited funds, etc. need exist in the eternal state of joy which is the Celestial Kingdom.

I am not trying to convince you, just pointing out why it makes sense to some people why God might allow plural marriage in heaven. If we were to adopt your POV as a given, then there is no reason to believe that with perfect, infinite individuals involved, having to make a choice to say goodbye to those one loved as a partner and spouse would not impede the joy that they would experience with the one that they chose to keep the eternal bond with so there would be no suffering caused by such a choice...but would only remove the opportunity to have the same type of joy with another they loved.

And as a personal statement of belief to really mess up your thinking, given our current state of knowledge of heaven and how sealings and love works, a woman has all the same difficult choices to make as a man does if she is required to choose between men she loves. Therefore if men are allowed to have multiple wives in order to maximize their experience of joy and love in exaltation, then I see no reason why women will not be given the same choice or rather be allowed to have multiple husbands....I realize that this gets into a greater 'ew' factor for many...but on a logical basis, it makes sense to me at this point. There may come a time when we are given revelation that explains why women must choose only one they loved and sacrifice others while men do not, but if God is no respecter of persons---male or female, without that additional information I don't see if one believes in plural marriage for men, one can state with confidence that there will be no plural marriage with the woman as the one with multiple spouses.

Edited July 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[bear]

Thanks a lot for your reply! I really appreciate everyones different views. I'll have to reread your recent reply a couple of times to give it my full attention (right now i have 2 tired kids and a tired wife that need my full attention;)

[bear]

hmmm.. how do i edit a post? I wanted to include this in the last post:

"And as a personal statement of belief to really mess up your thinking, given our current state of knowledge of heaven and how sealings and love works, a woman has all the same difficult choices to make as a man does if she is required to choose between men she loves. Therefore if men are allowed to have multiple wives in order to maximize their experience of joy and love in exaltation, then I see no reason why women will not be given the same choice or rather be allowed to have multiple husbands....I realize that this gets into a greater 'ew' factor for many...but on a logical basis, it makes sense to me at this point. There may come a time when we are given revelation that explains why women must choose only one they loved and sacrifice others while men do not, but if God is no respecter of persons---male or female, without that additional information I don't see if one believes in plural marriage for men, one can state with confidence that there will be no plural marriage with the woman as the one with multiple spouses."

That makes great sense to me. And it would make the whole polygamy thing a lot easier for me to understand.

[Questing Beast]

Iirc, on Mormon Dialogue you have to pave posted for a while before you can edit, maybe 25 or is it thirty posts? then you get full editing features activated....

[Tacenda]

hmmm.. how do i edit a post? I wanted to include this in the last post:

"And as a personal statement of belief to really mess up your thinking, given our current state of knowledge of heaven and how sealings and love works, a woman has all the same difficult choices to make as a man does if she is required to choose between men she loves. Therefore if men are allowed to have multiple wives in order to maximize their experience of joy and love in exaltation, then I see no reason why women will not be given the same choice or rather be allowed to have multiple husbands....I realize that this gets into a greater 'ew' factor for many...but on a logical basis, it makes sense to me at this point. There may come a time when we are given revelation that explains why women must choose only one they loved and sacrifice others while men do not, but if God is no respecter of persons---male or female, without that additional information I don't see if one believes in plural marriage for men, one can state with confidence that there will be no plural marriage with the woman as the one with multiple spouses."

That makes great sense to me. And it would make the whole polygamy thing a lot easier for me to understand.

No disrespect to Calmoriah, but I think it sounds terrible. You'd have jealousies galore. And to an outsider, that idea of heaven could sound like a big party of propagation for a world they all created together. That's where this kind of thinking hits the skids for me. Especially if I were to believe I have several Gods and Goddesses looking down on me. ETA: And we'd get into the problem of a "who's your daddy?" problem, like some polygamist children have, or to make it worse would be a, "who's your mommy?" situation. A situation that a great majority of members had not signed up for in the first place, IMHO. Edited July 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[Questing Beast]

...if men are allowed to have multiple wives in order to maximize their experience of joy and love in exaltation, then I see no reason why women will not be given the same choice or rather be allowed to have multiple husbands....I realize that this gets into a greater 'ew' factor for many...but on a logical basis, it makes sense to me at this point. ...

People as they are here would never be able to do it. If the Church ever went that way, it's growth would virtually stop, people would find the "doctrine" to repugnant.

So, as immortals there is a different dynamic at work, there has to be. Perhaps in the immortal world there is no "sex" whatsoever, or at least no procreation as we understand it here. So relationships are more like one huge extended family with the visceral aspects not present. We only experience that sort of thing by "being there" (here).

Or, sex is just a plaything, as is mortality (although a learning environment).

I think that religions have gone "sex mad", making it out to be something verbotten in ways it is not. This is very tricky/dangerous ground.

If marriage is indeed eternal, then the relationships in the immortal realm could only possibly work out if each one on one relationship has equal spacetime to define and enjoy it. None of this, "now it's your turn" crappola. There would in that case be no limitation on who is married to whom....

[Calm]

You'd have jealousies galore.

We are talking perfect people here....not exactly the jealous types.

[Calm]

If marriage is indeed eternal, then the relationships in the immortal realm could only possibly work out if each one on one relationship has equal spacetime to define and enjoy it. None of this, "now it's your turn" crappola. There would in that case be no limitation on who is married to whom....

I don't believe time is experienced in the same way in eternity as it is in mortality....but I would have no clue of describing it save by guessing that in relationships one can be fully one with all those who also desire it all the time...because that is what God has promised us. What that means in regards to a marriage relationship, I don't know because I don't see how a relationship can be greater than the one promised by God already for all of us as an exalted family with God and Christ at the head.

[bluebell]

No disrespect to Calmoriah, but I think it sounds terrible. You'd have jealousies galore. And to an outsider, that idea of heaven could sound like a big party of propagation for a world they all created together. That's where this kind of thinking hits the skids for me. Especially if I were to believe I have several Gods and Goddesses looking down on me.

It's probably best to remember that the LDS concept of exaltation doesn't look like the Roman/Greek concept of gods and goddesses up on Mt. Olympus. There won't be jealousy, no orgies, no sin of any kind, including pride and haughtiness.

[cinepro]

In case you didn't notice, it also bothered JS a great deal.

Initially, but I think he got over it.

[omni]

There are just some things that don't make sense to us. We are required to do things that break our hearts and/or ruin our lives, but we must do them nevertheless. Some are just plain weird. I leave to you whether polygamy, especially as practiced by JSJr, is one or the other.

Adam and Eve were promised the world, and all they had to do was not touch the fruit of one tree. It makes no sense.

Abraham was promised land, prosperity, posterity, priesthood, fame . . . and all he had to do was forsake the g-ds of his ancestors . . . oh, and cut off the end of his manhood. It makes no sense.

Some couples in JSJr's day were promised eternal life, exaltation, kingdoms, principalities and powers . . . and all they had to do was agree that the woman would become JSJr's wife in some ill-defined way. It makes no sense.

Why should we expect things to make sense to us all the time? Nobody else was either promised or was delivered such clarity.

Oh come on, how could you have left out the most nonsensical scriptural story of all time? In the OT when 42 children were eaten by bears for making fun of the prophet Elisha's bald head.

[strappinglad]

Suppose you live for 80 years. At age 10 you burn your hand on a hot stove. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on living for another 70 years.

Suppose you exist for 1,000,000 years. At age 125,000 you spend 80 years on earth. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on existing for another 875,000 years.

Suppose you exist for eternity...

I think we get very hung up on how we are now and tend to forget this is not " home ".

[Questing Beast]

Suppose you live for 80 years. At age 10 you burn your hand on a hot stove. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on living for another 70 years.

Suppose you exist for 1,000,000 years. At age 125,000 you spend 80 years on earth. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on existing for another 875,000 years.

Suppose you exist for eternity...

I think we get very hung up on how we are now and tend to forget this is not " home ".

Well, I can certainly agree on that....

[Alan]

Suppose you live for 80 years. At age 10 you burn your hand on a hot stove. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on living for another 70 years.

Suppose you exist for 1,000,000 years. At age 125,000 you spend 80 years on earth. That event is imprinted firmly on your mind but you go on existing for another 875,000 years.

Suppose you exist for eternity...

I think we get very hung up on how we are now and tend to forget this is not " home ".

Very well put.

[Teancum]

Joseph did not marry this woman. He only married Emma.

You are either greatly mistaken or delusional.