Does Hope Work?

[thatjimguy]

Ok, those of you may have heard me talk about how I have been having problems on getting answers to prayer. I've lost a lot of testimony about the entire deal.

My question is aimed for those of you who are in the church, yet do not believe literally, but as a good social organization with good morals.

If you do not believe in answered prayers, miracles and such to be real, but want to be part of the church due to good morals, how do you justify the fact that there are those who will buy into it literally. Even if you do not go out and give testimony making promises that God answers prayers and such, being part of the church gives passive influence to others and you are backing things up you do not believe by association. Is it truly moral to do so?

[Tacenda]

I think just like people of other faiths choose to go because they hope for a God on the other side, can't that pertain to us? I'm one that that's all I have, no time has it been whispered to me or witnessed to me, that it's true. I just go by the people and the great youth programs etc. I like the teachings mostly. But when it comes to the temple I feel like it may not be moral if I'm not the truest believer. But is everyone that does temple work 100 percent believers that go there? Or are we taught to go there to strengthen a testimony too? Meaning it's continual and liquid, so to speak. There has got to be a place for people like that or the church would have even less active than they already have. I have had a warm feeling on occasion and felt the truth of what I was partaking of in church or with the callings I've had in giving service. I believe there's room for people that have doubts. I believe the leaders understand, like Pres. Holland said in the most recent conference, take what truth or belief we do have, and build on that.

ETA: I gave you a terrible answer! I want to change it to...just be honest. If the bishop wants you to renew or work on getting a TR or if you're called to a calling you don't feel right doing, just be up front and take it from there. But I'll bet you'll be accepted for who/what you are, if not then there's your answer.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[Questing Beast]

Ok, those of you may have heard me talk about how I have been having problems on getting answers to prayer. I've lost a lot of testimony about the entire deal.

My question is aimed for those of you who are in the church, yet do not believe literally, but as a good social organization with good morals.

If you do not believe in answered prayers, miracles and such to be real, but want to be part of the church due to good morals, how do you justify the fact that there are those who will buy into it literally. Even if you do not go out and give testimony making promises that God answers prayers and such, being part of the church gives passive influence to others and you are backing things up you do not believe by association. Is it truly moral to do so?

"The heavens were brass, and my words fell to the ground".

I don't feel that way, actually. That's because I disabused myself over preconceived notions about how prayers get answered. The rare, "media event" answers to prayers, where God actually speaks, or even more rarely, appears, are not helpful for most of us who pray and want answers. If we don't get a shivery, or alternately burning, sensation when we ask our questions, we are not satisfied with the result: "I'm not worthy", or, "God's not listening", or "what do I lack yet?", it's so depressing. We inevitably focus on ourselves as the problem, and there is always something that's a problem, so we must be the reason why prayers don't get answered "cinematically", which is what we really want in order to be sure. I never felt a "burning bosom" in my life. I have experienced a few times when I felt awesome at a thought or concept that suddenly opened up to me, what we might call an "epiphany" moment. These did not come by direct association to praying.

To me all religions are manmade and always have been. "God" speaks to individuals directly, and no two of us are exactly alike in how we communicate with "God". General morals, ethics and perceptions of justice are nearly universal. I trust my God-given ability to judge corrupt systems as such, and anyone who is seeking enlightenment will agree with each other on what is best in a particular situation. That is why justice is more often handed than injustice, in our families, religious congregations, communities and the courts of the land: most of us want to do right almost all the time. Desire is the purest, that is to say the most honest, form of prayer. When we desire to do right, "God" always answers and reveals the right choices. I believe that the answers are as subtle as possible to "get the job done". The flashy answers are for inspirational stories.

Stay with the Church as long as the positive outweighs the negative....

[pmccombs1]

Ok, those of you may have heard me talk about how I have been having problems on getting answers to prayer. I've lost a lot of testimony about the entire deal.

My question is aimed for those of you who are in the church, yet do not believe literally, but as a good social organization with good morals.

If you do not believe in answered prayers, miracles and such to be real, but want to be part of the church due to good morals, how do you justify the fact that there are those who will buy into it literally. Even if you do not go out and give testimony making promises that God answers prayers and such, being part of the church gives passive influence to others and you are backing things up you do not believe by association. Is it truly moral to do so?

Ask yourself what you really want.

People who:

A) Already find the truth claims of the Church to be compelling or plausible,

B) Hope for the Church to be "true", or for something to be true;

C) or Are afraid that the Church might be "true"

Generally get their prayers answered sooner or later. And, like Questing Beast said, what is taken as an answer is up to a good deal of personal interpretation, shaped by desire. Those who are cynical, disingenuous, or indifferent will struggle with answers. To get a genuine answer, first you have to find the right thing and you need a certain willingness. Usually.

Those who believe literally in some or all of the church's claims are sincere and self-justified. Their personal experiences affirm their beliefs. Some of those experiences are very strong and unmistakable, and for those who have them, they are most definitely real! Although I believe differently than most fellow Mormons (and have a different view on the "reality" of these experiences), I would not wish to harm their testimonies or attack interpretations they hold sacred. It is not for me to deny or re-interpret what others have experienced. I sometimes do question and criticize general sorts of things in this forum, but topics here are usually discussed in a different context than at church. But even here we have moderators, and one of the things they ensure is that nobody is allowed to call into question the personal convictions or conscience of another. We simply do not have insight into the souls of other people. So, some kinds of expression are appropriate for church meetings and I try to respect that even if I disagree with it for my own part.

Does it concern me that my neighbors probably therefore have the wrong idea about what I really think and believe? Yes. Would they feel betrayed or weakened if they knew? Some of them, perhaps. Most of them would simply feel concerned for me. I'm sure rescue efforts would get underway. Is it immoral or misleading to "go along" for reasons besides literal belief? I understand how there are difficulties with it, but typically it is a stage in development and eventually people come to mutual understanding and find where they really belong. There are inevitable bumps along the way. In the meantime, I think it's worse evil to do things rashly. Making changes like that all at once can be more than people normally cope with. Let's not be in a hurry. Carry on and see what happens.

[Senator]

^{Feel free to live without it. I can't imagine why anyone would want to.}

[rpn]

If you do not believe in answered prayers, miracles and such to be real, but want to be part of the church due to good morals, how do you justify the fact that there are those who will buy into it literally. Even if you do not go out and give testimony making promises that God answers prayers and such, being part of the church gives passive influence to others and you are backing things up you do not believe by association. Is it truly moral to do so?

I believe that prayers are answered, but not that the outcomes we pray for always happen, or if they happen, not always because God did it. I believe that miracles can be real, but not all things that happen the way we want them to are miracles, and sometimes things that happen far differently than how we want them to ARE miracles anyway. And I fully believe in the Church's truth claims.

I know and/or know OF people who prayed for a sick child, who died anyway or some other heartfeld need, and now challenge the existence of God because He doesn't always save those we love, those who deserve it, and sometimes what happens seems too arbitrary to handle. I understand their utter despair. Indeed, I even shared it before I experienced my own miracle that lead me straight to our Savior's very open and real arms in a way that I could not deny. I've often thought about how I got so blessed as to get that assurance so that when something really awful happens, I do not doubt at all His reality or His personal knowledge of us. I do not know why some are requried to believe in other's believe because they are bereft of their own.

What I absolutely do know with every fiber is that our Heavenly Parents and our Savior are real, know us by name, know what our plans and dreams are, and are doing everything they can to help us, short of violating ours and other's agency, and comfort us in the meantime. I understand why hope is one of the stool legs to testimony, and its absence makes it really hard to remain sitting on the stool. Lack of hope, especially lack of hope that comes from really hard body blows, does not remove us from His/Their grace, nor out of their range for comfort. Nor does it make us strangers with the Saints. It is for those awful, foggy times, that Nephi wrote about the hanging on to the iron rod to safely guide us through. Just keep on doing what you have always done, with your personal attention to seeking Him, service in and out of the church, and choosing to believe Him/Them, when the mortal you cannot.

[MDalby]

Sometimes we are doing the right things but we just aren't doing them long enough. Pray, hope, be obedient. The answers will come. Abraham was a "friend of God" and look how long it took him to get an answer to his prayer.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ok, those of you may have heard me talk about how I have been having problems on getting answers to prayer. I've lost a lot of testimony about the entire deal.

Then don't focus on the "whole deal"...bad days past, then good then back. In answer to your question, Yes Church is a great moral place?

Oh and yes...hope does work.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[thatjimguy]

Sometimes we are doing the right things but we just aren't doing them long enough. Pray, hope, be obedient. The answers will come. Abraham was a "friend of God" and look how long it took him to get an answer to his prayer.

The problem with this is that both Abraham and Job has great faith already. An abundance of it. Compare that to a particle of faith for people like myself.

[thatjimguy]

By the way, I know a lot of you are shedding testimony of how prayer works and all that, and I appreciate it, but I went over all this before in another thread. I want to get to the idea of is it right to stay in a place where I am, by default, promoting by my very presence to those who know me, that I believe that prayer and other meta physical matters are true.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The problem with this is that both Abraham and Job has great faith already. An abundance of it. Compare that to a particle of faith for people like myself.

I assue no one begins with great faith...

[altersteve]

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

— Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Hope does work. I spent a long time not really knowing what hope is, but I think I have it figured out. Hope is not just optimism that something good will happen. That's certainly part of it, but what it comes down to is that having hope is to not be broken easily, and that takes a lot of heart and ambition, not just optimism. It's what drives us and motivates us to make a difference in the world and in ourselves, in order to simply have an enjoyable existence and help others to do the same. It's about slowly building momentum in our lives, and that momentum is very real and very powerful. As human beings, the sons and daughters of God, we're a lot more powerful than we think, and I think hope is what makes us ultimately realize how strong we really are. Remember the promise the Lord gave to Joseph Smith, and, by extension, to each of us: "My son [or daughter], peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment. And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."

That right there is where hope comes from. Hope makes us unstoppable — but remember, it only really works if you have some faith and charity to go along with it.

Edited July 9, 2013 by altersteve

[Robert F. Smith]

.............................................

Desire is the purest, that is to say the most honest, form of prayer.

-------------------------------------------- ....

According to the Buddha, desire is the beginning of sorrows.

Have you thought of sitting zazen, Beast?

[Kenngo1969]

Even hope and optimism betrayed are better than pessimism rewarded. Oftentimes, it’s a matter of perspective. I’m reminded of the story of the identical twins, one an optimist and the other a pessimist. For their birthday, their parents got the pessimist every gift they could think of—everything a boy could want. For the pessimist, all they got was a box of manure (a beautifully-wrapped box of manure, mind you, but a box of manure nonetheless). The pessimist comes slouching down the stairs into the living room, sees the room positively chock full of gloriously-wrapped presents, and grumbles, “Oh, is that all you got me?” Meanwhile, the optimist comes bounding down the stairs, rips open the wrapping paper on his single gift, rips open the box and starts pawing through the manure like mad, repeating over and over, “There’s gotta be a pony in here someplace! There’s gotta be a pony in here someplace!” Even all of the best “blessings” world can’t change the outlook of a pessimist who’s determined to stay pessimistic.

Sometimes, I’m frustrated by the facts that certain aspects of my life haven’t yet worked out in the way that I’d hoped and that certain of my challenges seem stubbornly to resist resolution. Yet I cannot deny the ways in which I have been blessed: I cannot deny the subtle yet (in my mind and heart, anyway) unmistakable ways in which I have been told, if not in so many words, “You’ll be OK, Ken. Just trust me. Lean on my ample arm, and whatever it is, I’ll get you through it.” (The questions in my mind that most stubbornly resist answers are these: How? and When?) The challenges in my life can be divided, roughly, into two categories: one physical, the other mental/emotional/spiritual.

Here’s a taste of the physical. (I’m not “comparing notes” with anyone else, and I realize that a multitude of people have overcome physical challenges far greater than mine in far greater fashion; I simply share this so you’ll know where I’m coming from, and I can only speak to what I know). I was born nearly ten weeks prematurely in an era in which that kind of prematurity was a virtual death sentence. (Utah’s first Newborn Intensive Care Unit had been established just the year before, but I was never sent there—perhaps because competent medical opinion figured the trip alone might kill me.) I weighed 3 pounds 5 ounces, “big” for that stage of development—and the “extra” weight might’ve been the only thing that saved me. I have Cerebral Palsy as a result.

As a result of the Cerebral Palsy, I have had surgery on every major muscle in my left leg; have had my left hip reconstructed three times; have had hardware implanted and removed; have spent a total of six months with my lower body completely immobilized in plaster (though not all at once—thank God! ); and have used every ambulatory device imaginable, including canes, crutches, braces, a walker, and a wheelchair. In the middst of these challenges, while lying on an operating table waiting to be cut open for the third time in 27 months (after two failed operations, each of which had been followed by six weeks in a body cast), I knew—even though, if anybody had bet on the situation’s outcome, they would have bet against me, and even though many would’ve thought that optimism under these circumstances was foolhardy and naïve (to say the least!)—that when I awoke after the operation, it would be to news of the best possible outcome. To be clear, I knew beyond any doubt whatsoever (good reason for pessimism notwithstanding) that God would guide the hands of a brash young surgeon who dared to defy the weight of medical opinion opposing him, which held that the best course of action was to try, again, what had already failed—twice.

If Dr. Sidney Freedman, the psychiatrist of M*A*S*H fame, was right in his assessment that “war is the best enterprise ever invented for separating a man’s brains from his buns,” then I would have to conclude that some of the things I’ve been through are a close second. (With all due deference to people who’ve been in war zones and who’ve been shot at, by no means do I intend to downplay your experiences and your sacrifices, and I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your service. But again, I can only speak to what I know.) And what of the “mental/emotional/spiritual” side of things? I was “mainstreamed” in school from Day One. That proved to be a blessing in the long run because it forced me to engage the world on its terms rather than demanding or expecting that the world engage me on my terms. (I’m still not perfect in that regard, by the way, but I did learn, very early and very quickly, that life isn’t fair, and that I’d better get off my @$$ and learn to deal with it the best I could rather than simply sitting there feeling sorry for myself!)

I was teased, taunted, bullied, made fun of, pushed, and hit; and teased, taunted, bullied, made fun of, pushed, and hit some more. Some days I went home from school determined never to go back. I appealed to teachers for help, often with little success (perhaps we’re better at responding to this kind of thing now than we were then, but there’s only so much even the best teacher can do).

One turning point came in fourth grade when a teacher I thought the world of decided he had heard one too many such appeals from me and said, “Look, Ken, you just can’t give a damn what anybody else thinks.” Many might be appalled to learn that a teacher would use that kind of language when speaking to an impressionable fourth-grader. But I think his choice of language was meant to reinforce the point he was trying to make: Look, Ken. You’re better than them. You know it, and deep down, they know it. I can’t say or do anything more to drive that point home to them. And perhaps it was then I decided that if I gave in to the impulse to never go back, I would let them win, and under no circumstances was I going to let them win.

Another turning point came in seventh grade, when a couple of my chief tormentors decided they were going to play “keep-away” from me with one of the ambulatory devices I used for propulsion at the time. Although I knew they were having “fun” at my expense, I also figured this idiocy couldn’t last forever: I’d let them have their fun, retrieve the crutch, and that would be the end of it. My father, who had seen the whole episode (sans audio) from his car while waiting to pick me up, demanded to know what had happened. While I was reluctant to tell him, he’s an excellent interrogator, having learned a thing or two about that in the nearly thirty years he’d spent in law enforcement at the time. I told him, then forgot all about the incident until I was sitting in class several days later and was asked to report to the principal’s office. When I got there, my dad, my tormentors, and the principal were all in attendance. By far, that was the best intervention between me and my tormentors that occurred during the entirety of my elementary and secondary education. Miraculously and mysteriously—apart from a handful of incidents which really were too minor to be called bullying—nobody messed with me after that. Apparently, word got around that you don’t mess with Sergeant G.’s kid. (And for those of you who are wondering, it was the principal who did all the talking during that meeting, while my dad hardly said a word. If you knew my dad, you’d know how rare that is!

[Kenngo1969]

I eventually won over most all of my classmates though—even my detractors. When we graduated from high school in 1988, I was presented with a scholarship which, although modest, was comprised of money taken from the Senior Class Fund—you know, the fund of which Senior Class officers usually say, “Hey, we’re about to graduate. What should we do with all of this money? Maybe we could go to Hawaii or something?!” Yeah. That fund. But they gave some of it to me. Included with the check was a letter signed by 208 of the 280 members of my graduating class. The letter said:

The Senior Class of 1988 wishes to acknowledge you in a very special way. Your courage and positive attitude have inspired all of us. In spite of your physical handicap, you have completed your high school education and you have done it under circumstances in which most of us would have failed. You have been cheerful about it and even joked. There is usually a smile on your face and a greeting on your lips. It appears that life handed you a lemon and you made lemonade. It is unusual for a class to make an award of this type available, but we feel that you deserve it. We admire you and wish you the best of luck in your future. We hope that you will use this $300 check to further your education, because you are a good student and have the potential to succeed.

With our love and best wishes,

The Class of ‘88

I won’t bore you with an equally-detailed account of the psychological/emotional/spiritual side of things except to say that no, I didn’t go through all of that—and through a lot of other stuff—unscathed. A lot of the physical scars have faded considerably, while a lot of the emotional scars still are quite evident. But even if you don’t heal, you do learn to deal. I haven’t always been the best at that. I’ve overreacted to some things most people might consider to be no big deal. But a part of the reason for that is because I have little patience on occasions when I think I’m being taken advantage of (even when that’s not actually the case). And because of that, I have a very keenly developed sense—perhaps an overdeveloped sense—of justice. I don’t like it when I think anyone is being taken advantage of, whether the target is me or anyone else. Sometimes I overreact. I have a complicated psychological history: I’ve been in and out (and in and out, and in and out, and in and out, and in and out) of counseling enough to qualify for an LCSW license myself, even without a day of schooling in that area! I’ve been on and off of antidepressants. I’ve been through years of psychosocial rehabilitation. In the profession I’m trying to get into, any one of those things—let alone all of them, might be the kiss of death.

In the face of all of these mental/emotional/spiritual challenges, give me a good old-fashioned physical challenge any day! Tell me I have to have surgery tomorrow, followed by a painful, grueling, seemingly-fruitless post-operative regimen, then take an x-ray or an MRI or a CT scan and tell me the operation didn’t work and I’ve got to do it all over again! Put me in plaster for the rest of my life. Put enough hardware in me to make me into a cyborg. Tell me you’ve got to whack off a limb. Tell me I have something seriously wrong with me, and my only chance of survival is to undergo a procedure with a 1% success rate, and I’ll handle that better than I’ve handled these seemingly-intractable, insoluble professional and emotional challenges.

Yet there have been times, all too subtle and all too fleeting, perhaps, but still there have been times, when God’s voice has been undeniable, just as it was that day on that operating table. My patriarchal blessing says that I’ll “grow to manhood and fulfill an honorable work for which I was foreordained before leaving [Heavenly Father’s presence].” While “all things are spiritual unto [God],” because there appears to me to be a clear bifurcation in my blessing between things temporal and things spiritual, I’ve always understood this passage to refer to something temporal (though I could certainly be wrong). I read Elder Jeffrey R. Holland’s “Cast Not Away, Therefore, Your Confidence” (Ensign, Mar. 2001) and it hit me like a bolt of lightning as I pondered the decision to pursue this particular graduate degree. In it, he said:

With every decision, there are cautions and considerations to make. But once there has been illumination, beware the temptation to retreat from a good thing. If it was right when you trusted it and prayed about it and lived for it, it is right now. Don’t give in when the pressure mounts. Certainly don’t give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness. Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you.

When I was set apart for a calling during my (very tumultuous) professional education, the high counselor acting as voice told me that “the Lord is pleased with the course of [my] life.” Several years later, I did initatories for the first time since receiving my own endowment nearly twenty years before when I visited my aunt and uncle, who were serving as Temple missionaries in Nauvoo. Although I had already been denied admission to my would-be chosen profession by the time of that visit, and while a part of me was wondering what I should do as a result, I cannot say that I was inordinately troubled by that set of circumstances or that I was expecting any sort of a “revelation” regarding them. (And I wouldn’t expect this particular passage to hit anyone else with the degree of force and specific significance with which it struck me). Nonetheless, I was completely taken aback by a particular passage in the initiatory when I considered it in light of my intended/attempted professional path and the education I had gotten. I came away from the experience feeling that my efforts had not been in vain, that despite the difficulties I had experienced I would still be able to carve out a niche for myself in my would-be chosen field.

What of the difficulties I have experienced in the course of my pursuit of this objective? I simply have to say, with Nephi, “I know not the meaning of all things. Nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children” (1 Nephi 11:17); like Paul, “[i am] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [i am] perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed” (2 Corinthians 4:8-9 KJV); as Paul told the Romans, “All things work together for the good of them that love God” (Romans 8:28, KJV); as King Benjamin told his people, “[N]otwithstanding [my] many strugglings, which [seem to] have been in vain[,] yet I trust there remaineth an effectual struggle to be made” (Mosiah 7:18).

[Kenngo1969]

To sum up, "Does hope work?" My answer is, "Sometimes, hope is the only thing that works!"

[Tacenda]

To sum up, "Does hope work?" My answer is, "Sometimes, hope is the only thing that works!"

I'm blessed to have read your story Ken, blessed.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm blessed to have read your story Ken, blessed.

Thank you. Give God the praise; I’m a sinner!

[Tacenda]

Thank you. Give God the praise; I’m a sinner!

I was!

[Kenngo1969]

I, along with everyone else (whether they realize it and want to admit it or not), would be nowhere without Him!

[pogi]

By the way, I know a lot of you are shedding testimony of how prayer works and all that, and I appreciate it, but I went over all this before in another thread. I want to get to the idea of is it right to stay in a place where I am, by default, promoting by my very presence to those who know me, that I believe that prayer and other meta physical matters are true.

And if you choose not to stay in the church, what are you promoting by your actions to those who know you? Would you not be promoting that prayer and other meta physical matters are not true? By the same token, would it be moral to do that when you don't even claim to know?

You are not morally responsible for anybody else's decisions purely based on your association with the church. It's not like you are intentionally harming anyone.

Just for sake of debate, let's hypothetically say that "prayer and other meta physical matters" are not true, in that case who would you be morally responsible to? If there is no God, I wouldn't worry too much about moral responsibility, because morality would be relative and wouldn't really mean anything in the end. In other words, you can't really be morally wrong by anybody else's standards without a God.

Hope works if you have reason to hope. Christ has given you all the reason in the world!

[pmccombs1]

Just for sake of debate, let's hypothetically say that "prayer and other meta physical matters" are not true, in that case who would you be morally responsible to? If there is no God, I wouldn't worry too much about moral responsibility, because morality would be relative and wouldn't really mean anything in the end. In other words, you can't really be morally wrong by anybody else's standards without a God.

I entirely disagree with this hypothetical--that if there is no God, then morality is unimportant. I worry that many religious people think in this corrupted way. Is this corruption of human nature brought about by our machine-like, authoritarian institutions? If such institutions should ultimately fail, Heaven help the earth! It will be awash in people who have no reason to do right.

I worry because what it means is that the moral expression of the people who think this way is a reflection about what they know or believe rather than of who they are. They are acting morally because of an epistemic imperative, not because they are intrinsically good or feel called by a sense of morality; and if this external "reason" for morality were to disappear, they'd stop being concerned with morality altogether. They can't conceive of being true to themselves and to each other. They ask in perplexity, "to whom shall I be responsible?"

In other words, these people are filling deterministic roles that have been programmed for them by some external authority rather than responding to an internal moral sense. They are automata who think they are going to be judged based on how well they perform a certain rote. It's the mass-produced, factory schooling mindset. Pass the test designed, standardized, and correlated for us (generic people) by distant experts in whom we fervently believe. Go through all of the right motions. Be able to check off the right compliance boxes. Earn success. Please the Man. Who knew that the Inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom would all be mass-produced commodities?

If a thing is "relative" to something else, how does that remove its meaning? How is it that life only becomes meaningful when judged against some external universal standard? It seems to me that just the opposite would be true. Universals are for leveling; they destroy the value of a thing by eliminating its rarity and thus by making it standard, equal, and utterly boring. Cast out the errant, or else pound it into a nicely labeled box until it fits perfectly. That will give it meaning? Are labels meaning?

This is all just my opinion. I mean to offend nobody, but I see a different, vibrant world of meaning. It is a moral world to be sure, and I am responsible to my own understanding of it and of how I fit into it. I like to think that God is at the bottom of it all, but it is OK if I don't experience Him or understand Him in the same way that the institution demands.

Thatjimguy will find his answers. Let him sojourn in the wilderness if he desires; it is only there that he may at last encounter that which speaks to him.

Edited July 10, 2013 by pmccombs1

[Questing Beast]

According to the Buddha, desire is the beginning of sorrows.

Have you thought of sitting zazen, Beast?

Who is the Buddha person of which you speak?

Anyway, I am confident that unwholesome desires is what he was talking about, not the desire to commune with "God", or Existence In The First Place.

Any prayer that is founded upon desire is an honest prayer (my use of the word "purest" was misleading, I meant most authentic). I did not say that it was a good prayer. Desire is what it is, usually corrupted by the imperfections of this world, we being the visceral creatures that we are. If our desires are corrupt, and we know this, our desire that transcends those corrupt desires ought to be to overcome them; that desire, if it is the greater, will then be the purest and most honest prayer. "Lord deliver me from sin"....

[Questing Beast]

I, along with everyone else (whether they realize it and want to admit it or not), would be nowhere without Him!

Amen to that. I enjoyed your story too....

[Kenngo1969]

[Kenngo1969] I, along with everyone else (whether they realize it and want to admit it or not), would be nowhere without Him!

Questing Beast,

Amen to that. I enjoyed your story too....

Thank you!