Need Help With Uninformed Black African Member

[canard78]

LIke I keep saying, "It's a very different thing to ask for Perfection than to ask for Reality. Different to ask for the Ideal than to confront the Real." Entirely different sets of information answer the questions asked, which follows because the questions themselves are different.

It's easy to say that a prophet would not be a racist, ignoring the implications of Acts 10. The point of my citing Adams' essay on the two studies of Noah's Curse was to point out that it was a Biblical justification of slavery, mistaken to be sure, but understood as such. Those LDS who came up with the ban in the mid 1840s at Winter Quarters, and who sustained it even after the civil rights movement brought some long-delayed scrutiny, all thought that they were doing God's will, and expressly NOT supporting the philosophies of men. Like it or not, that is what they honestly thought. Bush's historical essay makes that extremely clear.

They honestly thought... But they were wrong. What else were they wrong about that we've just taken on trust, generation after generation. Priesthood? Visions? Eternal families?

Speaking to a group of particularly righteous people, in 3 Nephi the savior said, "I perceive that ye are weak, and that ye cannot understand all my words, which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time. Therefore go ye into your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow..." (3 Nephi 17:2-3)

Earlier, in 3 Nephi 15:18 refers to Old World "stiffneckedness and unbelief" as being why some disciples "understood not my word;" leading to the Lord saying "no more" on that topic.

Prophets, it seems, are not divine sock puppets, instantly plugged in and transformed into God's thoughts, will, and deeds. This may be disappointing. It may fall short of an Ideal of Perfection, assuming of course, that one has the inner perfection to be able to infallibly recognize perfection when it appears, that one has no motes in one's own eyes, and is a reliable judge of problems elsewhere, whose scalpel always leads to clearer vision, and never to blindness. (It might help to be reminded that we are to be judged as we judge.) But it happens that Kuhn points out that "anomaly emerges against a background of expectation provided by the paradigm. The more precise and far-reaching that paradigm is, the more sensitive an indicated it provides of anomaly, and hence, of occasion for paradigm change."

I'm not asking for sock-puppets and I don't expect a floating quill. But if they're no more than men muddling through like the rest of us then why have prophets at all? An organisational leader may be a pragmatic necessity, but we teach our children to trust their every word and they themselves tell us they cannot and will never lead us astray. Is this incorrect? Are they actually leading us astray by teaching us they cannot and will not?

An inevitable consequence of demanding perfection now is to make imperfection, and only that, decisive. Evidence of inspiration cannot demonstrate perfection. Perfection cannot be verified easily, but it can be falsified with the greatest of ease. Any imperfection, indeed, any perceived imperfection will do.

What do I expect? A good question? What should I expect? A better one, as it demands that I look to my own weakness in understanding. What do I expect of latter-day prophets? Perfection? What I want, that is, my own Ideal imaginings? No. Inspiration. Yes. And mistakes.

D&C 1 sets my expectations not towards the Ideal, nor the Perfect, but to the real. "Inasmuch as they erred, it might be made made known; inasmuch as they sought wisdom, they might be instructed.. inasmuch as they were humble, they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

For me that is enough. A process that leads us in the right direction, with corrections coming when expedient, and when sought.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Thanks for the considered and considerate response.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work for me. I can't reconcile it. What you share and suggest might be more viable if that was actually what the church teaches.

[canard78]

Which is why, imo, the Lord has set things up this way...so that we turn to him instead of to other men when we want to know the eternal, lifealtering truths.

Only God can tell you this, not other men (or women)

And if my answer and your answer is different what then? If my answer from God is different to the leadership's do I simply leave or do I become a heretic and try to teach a prophet the error of his ways? Don't we attend a church whose membership are told they "should not campaign for rights?"

[The Nehor]

And if my answer and your answer is different what then? If my answer from God is different to the leadership's do I simply leave or do I become a heretic and try to teach a prophet the error of his ways? Don't we attend a church whose membership are told they "should not campaign for rights?"

If God is telling you to contradict the leadership I would expect God will also tell you how to do it too. Go with that.

[thesometimesaint]

canard:

They are just men muddling through the best they can, and sometimes they get a revelation from God. Just like sometimes we do, but they and not we can get it for the whole Church.

[why me]

How about if I hold Prophets to the standard I would expect others to hold me to if I claimed to be a Prophet?

What do others expect you to uphold? You are just a human being and as such, very imperfect. Should prophets be different? Should they have more perfection in their daily life? Are they cut off from the world? With your standard being a prophet would be a nightmare.

[why me]

They honestly thought... But they were wrong. What else were they wrong about that we've just taken on trust, generation after generation. Priesthood? Visions? Eternal families?

Well, it all comes down to the book of mormon. Is it what it claims to be? Did the witnesses have an experience that they could not deny throughout their lives and feel the need to confirm that experience on their deathbeds? What comes after is all fluff and left up to people's strengths and weaknesses.

[rockpond]

What do others expect you to uphold? You are just a human being and as such, very imperfect. Should prophets be different? Should they have more perfection in their daily life? Are they cut off from the world? With your standard being a prophet would be a nightmare.

This "perfection" argument is a strawman. I don't think anyone here has suggested the the prophets be perfect.

Wondering why our latter-day prophets couldn't cut through human prejudice and racism in less than 130 years is not asking for perfection. It's a question that ought to be examined and learned from. There may be current or future applications.

[thesometimesaint]

God through his prophets has been calling us to repentance for a very long time now. Wonder why we still haven't done it yet.

[canard78]

Abraham 1:21-27.

Various members including people we regard as prophets. seers, and revelators have given their own speculations as to its meaning. To date none of those speculations have been confirmed as the reason by God, and we claim to not know the why of the ban. Just that the ban existed, and is in the Scriptures.

The ban on Negroes having the priesthood is no-where in the scriptures. Please reread Abr 1:21-27 and show me where it says Negros should be denied the priesthood.

Did you read Kevin's reference? Here it is again:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=767

Ham was not the father of black nations.

Noah's curse in Genesis shows no evidence of being sanctioned by God.

Noah's curse says nothing of priesthood (nor does Abraham 1)

What do Egyptians have to do with Negroes? Black Africans come from the south of the continent and head north. Not from Egypt and heading south.

As I've said before and as was shown by Lester E. Bush in 1973, there's entirely no doctrinal foundation for the practice anywhere in scripture.

[why me]

This "perfection" argument is a strawman. I don't think anyone here has suggested the the prophets be perfect.

Wondering why our latter-day prophets couldn't cut through human prejudice and racism in less than 130 years is not asking for perfection. It's a question that ought to be examined and learned from. There may be current or future applications.

I think that we are dealing with perfection problems. How can a prophet be prejudice? This question as been more or less asked. Or can god be racist? Well, I provided a link that shows that god has been racist, especially in the old testament. So there is a case to be made that prophets are products of their time as is god.

[Nevo]

They are just men muddling through the best they can, and sometimes they get a revelation from God.

Well said.

I am reminded of something Laurel Thatcher Ulrich once said when a friend complained to her, after a bout of disillusionment, that she now felt the Church was maybe only 90 percent divine. Ulrich responded, "If you find any earthly institution that is ten percent divine, embrace it with all your heart!"

A further point. I don't think it is fair to reduce Brigham Young's legacy to his teachings on Adam-God, blood atonement, and blacks and the priesthood. I believe he was wrong on those points—even that he led the Church astray on those points—but when I look at what was accomplished under his leadership, I don't think there was a better man for the job. I think Leonard Arrington put it well: "[H]e was a man for all seasons, exactly what [the Saints] needed during the crucial generation following the death of their founding prophet" (American Moses, 209).

Edited June 19, 2013 by Nevo

[why me]

As I've said before and as was shown by Lester E. Bush in 1973, there's entirely no doctrinal foundation for the practice anywhere in scripture.

No argument there. But perhaps there was another reason, one found in the complex race relations that was america at that time. I still believe that the african priesthood holder who took it upon himself to marry white women in his polygamous relationships was probably the catalyst.

[cinepro]

Not fair in two respects.

First: No true prophet ever chose the responsibility so why do they get a higher standard?

Second: Everyone is equal in their strving for exaltation. Prophets do not have a different standard. I do believe there are variations and we are judged by our capabilities and circumstances but I have no reason to believe that the prophets excel everyone else by in those categories either. In other words if you were called as a prophet tomorrow would you suddenly excel and exceed your current standards. If you can why not do so now without the calling? If you cannot why should another man who happens to get a call be expected to?

If our personal conduct can influence our ability to receive revelation and feel the Holy Ghost, then the personal conduct of the Prophet should be of great interest to the church members.

[canard78]

Well, it all comes down to the book of mormon. Is it what it claims to be? Did the witnesses have an experience that they could not deny throughout their lives and feel the need to confirm that experience on their deathbeds? What comes after is all fluff and left up to people's strengths and weaknesses.

No it doesn't. The Book of Mormon bears no relationship with the spiritual expansion from the 19thC that followed it.

Falling back on 11 witnesses of plates seems a bit irrelevant to whether Brigham Young was an inspired prophet to instigate a racist practice that was sustained and perpetuated by 130 years of leaders after.

[rpn]

I think that God was waiting for a time when a prophet asked (several did over the years) and a quorum (decisions have to be made by consensus and we know that some even in 1978 had pretty strong feelings on the subject) and membership were prepared to accept the revelation. The belief or just feeling of blacks as inferior was pretty widespread throughout america for a very long time including long after the civil rights acts of 1965.

[cinepro]

The ban on Negroes having the priesthood is no-where in the scriptures. Please reread Abr 1:21-27 and show me where it says Negros should be denied the priesthood.

Did you read Kevin's reference? Here it is again:

https://byustudies.b....aspx?title=767

Ham was not the father of black nations.

Noah's curse in Genesis shows no evidence of being sanctioned by God.

Noah's curse says nothing of priesthood (nor does Abraham 1)

What do Egyptians have to do with Negroes? Black Africans come from the south of the continent and head north. Not from Egypt and heading south.

As I've said before and as was shown by Lester E. Bush in 1973, there's entirely no doctrinal foundation for the practice anywhere in scripture.

If you're asking for someone on this board to defend the Priesthood Ban using the scriptures, I doubt anyone will take you up on it. We're all agreed that it isn't unambiguously scriptural.

The point is that there are certain verses of scripture which are easily understood to describe a Priesthood Ban based on skin color and lineage, and these verses were understood that way by some Church leaders and members. These verses do exist, and it's only through our "enlightened" post-OD2 understanding that we can see that they aren't referring to a race-based Priesthood Ban after all.

[canard78]

What comes after is all fluff and left up to people's strengths and weaknesses.

I've got to come back to this again.

130 years of denying an entire race a place in the priesthood and in the temple is "all fluff?"

[SeekingUnderstanding]

This "perfection" argument is a strawman. I don't think anyone here has suggested the the prophets be perfect.

Wondering why our latter-day prophets couldn't cut through human prejudice and racism in less than 130 years is not asking for perfection. It's a question that ought to be examined and learned from. There may be current or future applications.

Especially when an Angel with a sword was able to rid people of their Victorian notions against polygamy in a few short years...

[thesometimesaint]

If you're asking for someone on this board to defend the Priesthood Ban using the scriptures, I doubt anyone will take you up on it. We're all agreed that it isn't unambiguously scriptural.

The point is that there are certain verses of scripture which are easily understood to describe a Priesthood Ban based on skin color and lineage, and these verses were understood that way by some Church leaders and members. These verses do exist, and it's only through our "enlightened" post-OD2 understanding that we can see that they aren't referring to a race-based Priesthood Ban after all.

Agreed.

[thesometimesaint]

I've got to come back to this again.

130 years of denying an entire race a place in the priesthood and in the temple is "all fluff?"

The Priesthood was denied to non Jews for thousands of years. That doesn't make Moses any less of a prophet of God, or that he wasn't inspired.

[why me]

No it doesn't. The Book of Mormon bears no relationship with the spiritual expansion from the 19thC that followed it.

Falling back on 11 witnesses of plates seems a bit irrelevant to whether Brigham Young was an inspired prophet to instigate a racist practice that was sustained and perpetuated by 130 years of leaders after.

But it has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the lds church. That rests on the book of mormon and the testimonies of 11 witnesses. How many members leave because of what they read about brigham young? Or the priesthood ban? And yet, this has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the lds church. It has to do with brigham young. And that was my point. People leave over BY or someone else. But the book of mormon still stands as a testament that christ is the christ. It has not been proven false.

[Hamilton Porter]

I think Johnny Cake is FOS.

You are out of the thread.

[omni]

I don't hold prophets to higher standards at all. This was a problem for many early members of the lds church when it came to Joseph Smith. How often did he tell the members that he was not perfect nor righteous? Prophets are just human beings with a high calling. I believe that the apostles of christ were not exactly full of love for non-jews. And why did Jesus only go among the jews? I think that prophets were products of their age and christ needed to deal with their imperfections. And I am sure that Paul was also prejudice about pagans and their lifestyle.

And old testament prophets? Products of their age? Most definitely.

Where much is given much is expected.

Prophets should absolutely be held to a higher standard. If a CEO of a large bank was caught on camera making horribly racist comments it would cause a media firestorm, the CEO would have to resign, the stock would probably decline, the company's PR team would have to move into overdrive. If any entry level teller did the same thing it wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

If a president gets caught in an extramarital affair it receives non-stop news coverage for years, special hearings are adjourned, and he is castigated publicly, if an entry level government bureaucrat does the same thing it's no big deal.

This same concept can also be seen in the church as you will generally receive greater disciplinary action for committing sin if you hold a leadership position. On this board we like to get all populist and claim the prophet is just a regular guy, who makes mistakes just like the rest of us. No, I'm sorry your regular member you struggles to read their scriptures, pray daily, attend the temple monthly, who may watch an occasional rated "R" movie, let's a few swear words slip, has inappropriate thoughts, and thinks three hours is way to long to have church is not going to get called as prophet. In the church we place a huge emphasis on personal worthiness for leadership callings, so how can we not expect that in our prophets who hold the highest earthly calling?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This "perfection" argument is a strawman. I don't think anyone here has suggested the the prophets be perfect.

Wondering why our latter-day prophets couldn't cut through human prejudice and racism in less than 130 years is not asking for perfection. It's a question that ought to be examined and learned from. There may be current or future applications.

I will make sure to hold you to the same standard. That you should be able to figure things out that I think are obvious. I mean come on. They couldn't cut through it for the same reason no one could. I don't think any members thought there was problem. Even when it was revealed. It seems that as of lately (the past 5 years) it has become this huge issue. And the funny thing is that the policy chaged over 30 years ago.

[why me]

Especially when an Angel with a sword was able to rid people of their Victorian notions against polygamy in a few short years...

And yet, the angel with a sword is indeed biblical:

Numbers 22:23

And the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the donkey turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the donkey, to turn her into the way.

2 Chronicles 32:21

And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.

1 Chronicles 21:16

And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

I guess such a vision does have an effect on the people involved.

Edited June 19, 2013 by why me