why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Where much is given much is expected.Prophets should absolutely be held to a higher standard. If a CEO of a large bank was caught on camera making horribly racist comments it would cause a media firestorm, the CEO would have to resign, the stock would probably decline, the company's PR team would have to move into overdrive. If any entry level teller did the same thing it wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.No wonder prophets tend to hold their tongues these days. In fact, Gordon B. Hinckley was being discouraged to appear on larry king, if I understood it correctly. But he went on and his quotes are still being used to mock the church. Yep, lets hold these humans to a higher standard. Yep, I am sure that satan just lets these guys be or that they have supernatural powers to withstand his temptations and influence.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I will make sure to hold you to the same standard. That you should be able to figure things out that I think are obvious. I mean come on. They couldn't cut through it for the same reason no one could. I don't think any members thought there was problem. Even when it was revealed. It seems that as of lately (the past 5 years) it has become this huge issue. And the funny thing is that the policy chaged over 30 years ago.If I were the leader of the "one true and living church" and was called as a prophet, seer, and revelator than you certainly should. Alas, I am not.But, I am not saying that they were NOT prophets or that members should leave the church over this issue. I'm suggesting that there are likely lessons to be learned.I think one reason that it has become a higher visibility issue over the last few years is because of its parallels to a current challenge of the day: gay marriage.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 But it has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the lds church. That rests on the book of mormon and the testimonies of 11 witnesses. How many members leave because of what they read about brigham young? Or the priesthood ban? And yet, this has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the lds church. It has to do with brigham young. And that was my point. People leave over BY or someone else. But the book of mormon still stands as a testament that christ is the christ. It has not been proven false.The LDS Church is neither true nor false. It is just an organization. A compilation of assets. I know that "the church is true" is something we like to say, but don't we actually mean that we have a testimony of the gospel, or of Christ, or of the Book of Mormon, or of a loving Heavenly Father, or of Joseph Smith and the restoration of priesthood authority?So, I think that the reason we see people leave after, for example, learning something disquieting about Brigham Young is because they have lost THAT piece of their testimony... belief in the prophet. That loss often causes the rest to become somewhat unhinged. Doubt then tips the scales in the delicate balance with faith. 1
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I've got to come back to this again.130 years of denying an entire race a place in the priesthood and in the temple is "all fluff?"Here is what I find amazing. Members leave the church for various of reasons.1. the church hides its history2. BYs prejudice remarks3. the book of abraham4. polygamy5. anything else that may come upHowever, the church's foundation rests on the book of mormon and how it came about and on the testimonies of 11 people and all those who witnessed the process of translation. And so far, these testimonies still hold as does the book of mormon. Thus, the rest is all fluff with critics offering interpretations to cast doubt in members' minds.
thesometimesaint Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 If I were the leader of the "one true and living church" and was called as a prophet, seer, and revelator than you certainly should. Alas, I am not.But, I am not saying that they were NOT prophets or that members should leave the church over this issue. I'm suggesting that there are likely lessons to be learned.I think one reason that it has become a higher visibility issue over the last few years is because of its parallels to a current challenge of the day: gay marriage.The Church can't prevent gay marriage, but it can refuse to marry gay couples. 1
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Here is what I find amazing. Members leave the church for various of reasons.1. the church hides its history2. BYs prejudice remarks3. the book of abraham4. polygamy5. anything else that may come upHowever, the church's foundation rests on the book of mormon and how it came about and on the testimonies of 11 people and all those who witnessed the process of translation. And so far, these testimonies still hold as does the book of mormon. Thus, the rest is all fluff with critics offering interpretations to cast doubt in members' minds.So everything that happened after the Book of Mormon... i.e. the Restoration... is all fluff?Sorry, I can't get on board with that.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 If I were the leader of the "one true and living church" and was called as a prophet, seer, and revelator than you certainly should. Alas, I am not.I see. So, if you were the son or daughter of a prophet you would hold your dad to a higher standard? He should not make human mistakes? I think that you would be very disappointed in your dad, if he were prophet. Edward Kimball gave a great interview about his dad, Spencer. For him, Spencer was definitely human first, then a dad and then a prophet. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 (edited) The LDS Church is neither true nor false. It is just an organization. A compilation of assets. I know that "the church is true" is something we like to say, but don't we actually mean that we have a testimony of the gospel, or of Christ, or of the Book of Mormon, or of a loving Heavenly Father, or of Joseph Smith and the restoration of priesthood authority?So, I think that the reason we see people leave after, for example, learning something disquieting about Brigham Young is because they have lost THAT piece of their testimony... belief in the prophet. That loss often causes the rest to become somewhat unhinged. Doubt then tips the scales in the delicate balance with faith.Actually the Saints DO believe the Church is true. Edited June 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 (edited) So everything that happened after the Book of Mormon... i.e. the Restoration... is all fluff?Sorry, I can't get on board with that.Only if you use it to leave the church. The church's truthfulness rests with the book of mormon and not with the imperfections of men. For example, many of the witnesses left over Joseph Smith. Some thought that he was a fallen prophet. And yet, they could not deny their book of mormon experience. They let the 'fluff' interfere with their membership in the church. What about you? Edited June 19, 2013 by why me
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I see. So, if you were the son or daughter of a prophet you would hold your dad to a higher standard? He should not make human mistakes? I think that you would be very disappointed in your dad, if he were prophet. Edward Kimball gave a great interview about his dad, Spencer. For him, Spencer was definitely human first, then a dad and then a prophet.They are certainly human. I thought we were discussing them in their capacity as prophets, seers, and revelators. The capacity in which we are told to follow them, heed their counsel, and that they will not lead the church astray. So, yes, in that capacity they are held to a higher standard than the rest of us.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Actually the Saints DO believe the Church is true.I think you may have missed my point.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 So everything that happened after the Book of Mormon... i.e. the Restoration... is all fluff?Sorry, I can't get on board with that.I have catholic friends. For them, the catholic church rests its foundation on Christ and Peter being the first pope and on the scripture that states that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So, the imperfections of popes, the religious wars, the inquisition, the antipopes, the indulgences, etc are all fluff for them. It has nothing to do with Peter, the rock as foundation for the church and how the gates of hell will not prevail.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Only if you use it to leave the church. The church's truthfulness rests with the book of mormon and not with the imperfections of men. For example, many of the witnesses left over Joseph Smith. Some thought that he was a fallen prophet. And yet, they could not deny their book of mormon experience. They let the 'fluff' interfere with their membership in the church. What about you?I'm still quite strong in the church. I believe that I successfully worked through a faith crisis of my own.I agree that a testimony of the keystone of our religion, the Book of Mormon, is absolutely critical. But, I don't think you can dismiss the rest of the restoration as fluff and suggest that the truthfulness of the restoration is not germane to maintaining one's membership in the church. 1
ERayR Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 So everything that happened after the Book of Mormon... i.e. the Restoration... is all fluff?Sorry, I can't get on board with that.No but if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the restoration the rest is irrelevant.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 No but if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the restoration the rest is irrelevant.Agreed... the Restoration does not fall into the "fluff" category.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 They are certainly human. I thought we were discussing them in their capacity as prophets, seers, and revelators. The capacity in which we are told to follow them, heed their counsel, and that they will not lead the church astray. So, yes, in that capacity they are held to a higher standard than the rest of us.Let me put it this way: mormons lead good lives. They receive good counsel. If one lives according to the mormon life, one will have a good life and a healthy life, one that will certainly get one closer to god. The value structure of the church has withstood the test of time. It may now be old fashioned as the world as moved on in its values but no one can claim that the mormon church with its values and youth programs etc, leads people away from god. Of course they can claim it but such a statement would fall flat on its face.At the end of the day, this is what is important. If african americans would now begin to follow the lds teaching on family, their families would be stronger, more drug free and alcohol free and their lives would be better in such a value structure. Likewise for all races. At the end of the day, this is what is important. LDS values are a beacon of light for many to follow. why? Because they will bring a person closer to god and his word.
ERayR Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 They are certainly human. I thought we were discussing them in their capacity as prophets, seers, and revelators. The capacity in which we are told to follow them, heed their counsel, and that they will not lead the church astray. So, yes, in that capacity they are held to a higher standard than the rest of us.Nope, in their role as human beings which, like the rest of us, permeates all their other callings in life.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I have catholic friends. For them, the catholic church rests its foundation on Christ and Peter being the first pope and on the scripture that states that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So, the imperfections of popes, the religious wars, the inquisition, the antipopes, the indulgences, etc are all fluff for them. It has nothing to do with Peter, the rock as foundation for the church and how the gates of hell will not prevail.Yep. I think many Catholics see their religion as something that transcends its modern day leadership & activities. Good for us, as Latter-day Saints, to also consider that POV.
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Let me put it this way: mormons lead good lives. They receive good counsel. If one lives according to the mormon life, one will have a good life and a healthy life, one that will certainly get one closer to god. The value structure of the church has withstood the test of time. It may now be old fashioned as the world as moved on in its values but no one can claim that the mormon church with its values and youth programs etc, leads people away from god. Of course they can claim it but such a statement would fall flat on its face.At the end of the day, this is what is important. If african americans would now begin to follow the lds teaching on family, their families would be stronger, more drug free and alcohol free and their lives would be better in such a value structure. Likewise for all races. At the end of the day, this is what is important. LDS values are a beacon of light for many to follow. why? Because they will bring a person closer to god and his word.That is a valid and beautiful statement of your faith. But still subjective. Any many members who struggle with certain aspects of our doctrine & history probably don't agree.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I'm still quite strong in the church. I believe that I successfully worked through a faith crisis of my own.These days, the critics are using the internet to distract members from what is important: the truthfulness of the book of mormon and the 11 witnesses. Everything is brought up as a distraction, even grandma's kitchen sink. And yet, they cannot attack the witnesses or the book of mormon and how it came to be. Even the hat trick is faith promoting. So, the rest is fluff used for distraction.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Yep. I think many Catholics see their religion as something that transcends its modern day leadership & activities. Good for us, as Latter-day Saints, to also consider that POV.But the critics do not allow us to consider that point of view at all. They constantly bring up distractions. The catholics are more fortunate. They are allowed to transcend their church's imperfections. And they do transcend it.
why me Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 (edited) That is a valid and beautiful statement of your faith. But still subjective. Any many members who struggle with certain aspects of our doctrine & history probably don't agree.No they don't. And the antimormons or the critics do not allow them to transcend imperfections. Rather, members are told to doubt their church because of them. Members struggle after discovering the internet's information and yet, they allow such information to destroy their testimony. And the critics are very skillful in doing this. And yet, the 11 witnesses still stand as a testament that something wonderful happened to them with the book of mormon.And that joseph wrote a book with his head in a hat. And that does trump the priesthood ban. Edited June 19, 2013 by why me
rockpond Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 No they don't. And the antimormons or the critics do not allow them to transcend imperfections. Rather, members are told to doubt their church because of them. Members struggle after discovering the internet's information and yet, they allow such information to destroy their testimony. And the critics are very skillful in doing this. And yet, the 11 witnesses still stand as a testament that something wonderful happened to them with the book of mormon.And that joseph wrote a book with his head in a hat. And that does trump the priesthood ban.Yes, you might find it hard to believe, but there are members who disagree with your statement of belief.p.s. The critics didn't create the priesthood ban.
omni Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 I think that we are dealing with perfection problems. How can a prophet be prejudice? This question as been more or less asked. Or can god be racist? Well, I provided a link that shows that god has been racist, especially in the old testament. So there is a case to be made that prophets are products of their time as is god.I'll be honest with you here, I think you're just digging yourself a bigger hole by showing racism in the OT.
Johnnie Cake Posted June 19, 2013 Author Posted June 19, 2013 No they don't. And the antimormons or the critics do not allow them to transcend imperfections. Rather, members are told to doubt their church because of them. Members struggle after discovering the internet's information and yet, they allow such information to destroy their testimony. And the critics are very skillful in doing this. And yet, the 11 witnesses still stand as a testament that something wonderful happened to them with the book of mormon.And that joseph wrote a book with his head in a hat. And that does trump the priesthood ban.So which of you're two black and white camps do I fall into? Am I a critic or an anti-Mormon?
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