The Church Hides Its History....

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually, if you think about it, a thick $10 institute manual that most members of the Church have never seen or heard of isn't a bad place to hide things.

The manual can be read for free here.

If you have smartphone or an iPod Touch, as I do, it can be downloaded for free, carried with you and searched digitally as part of the "Gospel Library" app provided for free by the Church.

I haven't looked into it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a PDF version available for Kindle readers for the nominal cost that Kindle requires users to pay.

Edited to add:

CFR that most members have never seen or heard of it.

Do you ever go on lds.org, Nevo?

Edited again to add:

Just checked Amazon. It's not on Kindle yet, but apparently, if enough readers request, it can be.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Actually, if you think about it, a thick $10 institute manual that most members of the Church have never seen or heard of isn't a bad place to hide things.

This could be said about life in general. Most information is in a book which does cost some money. Of course, the internet has certain information for free. I think that the manual can be had for nothing from the Internet. But I suppose that one must know that it does exist. However, would the critics be correct that the church hides its history if a great deal is in the manual? Or on the church website? And now we have the JSP on the internet. What else should the lds church do?

[Scott Lloyd]

Why do you think this was changed? Institute manuals for example have gotten less detailed though with more pictures. The previous Church History manual was two fat volumes that contained much that isn't in the new one.

Alas, I think it has to do with decreased attention spans and refusal by many of today's generations of students to read and study at any great length.

[On being encouraged to enroll in Institute] Only if you are a certain age, nonYoung Adults were not allowed in many cases to attend (I know since I tried)

Our stake currently sponsors an Institute class for adults of all ages. It is taught by a retired CES instructor.

There have been other such Institute courses offered in our stake in the past, taught by professional educators.

I don't know how widespread this practice is in the Church, but it's not unheard of.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

This could be said about life in general. Most information is in a book which does cost some money. Of course, the internet has certain information for free. I think that the manual can be had for nothing from the Internet. But I suppose that one must know that it does exist. However, would the critics be correct that the church hides its history if a great deal is in the manual? Or on the church website? And now we have the JSP on the internet. What else should the lds church do?

Indeed. See my post above yours.

[Scott Lloyd]

You know ant the GA's should know the best place to hide this kind of information is in the Church magazines and lesson material. Nobody reads them.

Conversely, they could put it on a website that purports to be anti-Mormon, thus ensuring a wide readership.

[Nevo]

CFR that most members have never seen or heard of [the Church History in the Fullness of Times student manual].

I can't prove it, obviously, but I don't think it's an unreasonable supposition given that most members:

• are not active
  
• do not speak English
  
• have not attended institute or BYU, or did not take this particular class at institute or BYU
  
• do not read institute manuals in their spare time, particularly super long ones
  

Do you ever go on lds.org, Nevo?

Yes I do.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Nevo

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I was unaware that faithful LDS didn't necessarily believe that the LDS Church is the one true church. Things must have changed since I stopped attending. I made an assumption based on my past experiences. This sounds like a topic for another thread.

Nothing has changed, including those who have problems with the faith thinking that they alone are individuals...and that those of us who remain are mindless clones. I truly hope that one day you will see again that being a "true Church" does not mean that flaws do not exist among those guarded with it's care. Also realize that each member is unique and not mindless robots. Judge us as men and women, not gods...Please! But as to my faith, I do love it as well as the Church I grew up in, as I have pointed out many times, I am a cultural Baptist and a doctrinal Mormon...and flawed as all men are. I also pray you come homes again someday brother. Edited May 30, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Storm Rider]

At the end of this very long day, this topic is found to be more than just a little annoying. Fundamentally it comes down to whining; some can find any reason and use every reason to whine. I just don't have enough time in my day to give this much worry or thought. Some people need a good, swift kick in the pants; or for someone to shake them to their senses. It does not matter. After the Spirit speaks it does not matter what kind of reason can be found to not believe, to lose faith, and to whine about why it is not one's own fault for their predicament in life. I firmly believe that we create our own hell in this life and the hereafter. Some are just more happy in hell is the best reason I can find for why they are the way they are. If you want to be happy in this life the first lesson you must learn is to stop whining. The second thing is that if you want to be at peace you have to follow the commandments. It does not matter that you have an urge to do X, Y, or Z; urges don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to having peace or happiness. Follow the commandments; choose the right, and for goodness sake stop whining about it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I can't prove it, obviously, but I don't think it's an unreasonable supposition given that most members:

• are not active
  
• do not speak English
  
• have not attended institute or BYU, or did not take this particular class at institute or BYU
  
• do not read institute manuals in their spare time, particularly super long ones
  

As to your bullets points...

1. Too bad

2. Not a problem

3. Good, they should go to Church school in Virginia...South is heaven on earth. :)

4. Okay with this as long as they read the true books on doctrine...scripture.

[Scott Lloyd]

I can't prove it, obviously, but I don't think it's an unreasonable supposition given that most members:

• are not active

So the problem, presumably, is that they are not active enough to avail themselves of the instruction the Church does provide, not that that the Church is hiding essential information in an inaccessible textbook.

• do not speak English

I'm fairly confident that Church History in the Fullness of Times, along with other CES materials, is like virtually all of the Church curriculum in that it is translated into a wide array of languages spoken and read by Church members globally. Moreover, the Institute program has a wide reach indeed.

(Edited to add:

I just went to the online Distribution Center Store entry for the Church History in the Fulness of Times manual. Clicking on the drop-down menu, I find that it can be had in any of 18 languages.)

• have not attended institute or BYU, or did not take this particular class at institute or BYU

As a former gospel doctrine teacher, I know that for many years, the Church Distribution Centers have had the Institute manuals displayed for sale in the Sunday School section alongside the corresponding gospel doctrine teachers manuals, the intent being that teachers and students will acquire them for enrichment and reference as they study that particular year's gospel doctrine course, be it Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants and Church History.

I don't think the notion is sustainable that only those who attend BYU or take Institute classes are apt to be exposed to the manuals.

• do not read institute manuals in their spare time, particularly super long ones

Yet many seem to have all the time in the world to consume anti-Mormon claims and distortions. That has always seemed ironic to me.

Yes I do.

My point is that those who visit the Church website and spend much time there are apt to be aware that the Institute manuals may be accessed there without charge. They don't have to spend $9.50 for a hard copy, although they can easily enough if they elect to do so

Edited May 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Stone holm]

Well, yes. There may be members out there who make it a practice to read all the manuals found on lds.org in their entirety, but I suspect they are a very small group. The vast majority of members' exposure to Church history comes through the following channels: conference talks, Sunday School (D&C) and Priesthood/Relief Society (the Presidents of the Church), visual media (Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration, Legacy, Mountain of the Lord, How Rare a Possession, etc.), Church magazines, and brief manuals like Our Heritage or Truth Restored. Highly committed Mormons may supplement this by purchasing Deseret Book/BYU Religious Studies Center offerings, visiting Church History sites, watching BYUTV documentaries, and purchasing Church History in the Fulness of Times from the local distribution center.

As a result, most members probably know about--or have at least heard of--Joseph's leg operation, the First Vision, Moroni's visit, the recovery of the gold plates, the translation of the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim, the restoration of the priesthood, the organization of the Church, the expulsion of the Saints from Jackson County, Zion's Camp, the Kirtland Temple dedication, the Kirtland apostasy, Thomas Marsh and wife leaving the Church over milk strippings, Lilburn Bogg's Extermination Order, Haun's Mill, Liberty Jail, Joseph and Hyrum's martyrdom, the trek west, and the Willie and Martin handcart companies.

And most members probably do not know about Joseph's use of divining rods and seer stones, the descriptions of Moroni as a treasure-guardian, Joseph's 1826 trial, Joseph's abortive attempt to join the Methodists, Martin Harris's wife beating and religious instability, the head-in-the-hat translation of the Book of Mormon, the possibility that the Church was organized before the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored, the Fanny Alger episode, Mormon marauding in Northern Missouri, the death threats against dissenters, Joseph's translation of the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph's proposing to apostle's wives while their husbands were away on missions, Joseph's initiation into freemasonry prior to revealing the endowment, Joseph's forceful public denials of polygamy (while he was secretly the husband of 30+ wives), the secret establishment of a political kingdom and shadow government in Nauvoo, etc.

Oh if they want to peruse most of the anti-Mormon stuff on the internet they can get some interesting facts and plenty of slander. We discussed seer stones and divining rods in Sunday School class this year and also in Priesthood. We also discussed the use of a hat to block out light. The anti-Mormon slanders not so much. Most everyone knows that all the early Church Leaders were Masons, anyone going to Nauvoo would have to be blind not to notice the Masonic hall, etc. I don't see the Church as hiding anything, but they don't republish slanders either.

[grhammjr]

in the information age it is hard to hide anything, but history can be mixed with misinformation. In doing research on the church in southern Ohio it has been a struggle for me to find information, but what I have gotten is more due to online sources then local voices.

[ERayR]

Well, yes. There may be members out there who make it a practice to read all the manuals found on lds.org in their entirety, but I suspect they are a very small group. The vast majority of members' exposure to Church history comes through the following channels: conference talks, Sunday School (D&C) and Priesthood/Relief Society (the Presidents of the Church), visual media (Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration, Legacy, Mountain of the Lord, How Rare a Possession, etc.), Church magazines, and brief manuals like Our Heritage or Truth Restored. Highly committed Mormons may supplement this by purchasing Deseret Book/BYU Religious Studies Center offerings, visiting Church History sites, watching BYUTV documentaries, and purchasing Church History in the Fulness of Times from the local distribution center.

As I said hide it in the manuals and publications, then urge everybody to study the manuals and publications will ensure it stays hidden. After all it is the GA's responsibility to visit the home of each member and investigator and give them a complete accounting of all this.

[ERayR]

in the information age it is hard to hide anything, but history can be mixed with misinformation. In doing research on the church in southern Ohio it has been a struggle for me to find information, but what I have gotten is more due to online sources then local voices.

IMNSHO most members go to church to hear gospel principles, not history.

[Scott Lloyd]

As I said hide it in the manuals and publications, then urge everybody to study the manuals and publications will ensure it stays hidden. After all it is the GA's responsibility to visit the home of each member and investigator and give them a complete accounting of all this.

To adapt an old proverb: You can lead a disinclined consumer to content, but you can't make him read.

[Nevo]

I don't see the Church as hiding anything, but they don't republish slanders either.

I think it is still the case that most members generally know the history the Church wants them to know, and generally don't know the history that the Church would rather not talk about. That was probably a prudent policy before the advent of the Internet, but I don't think the status quo will hold forever. There are already indications that significant numbers of people are leaving the Church because of things they're finding on the Internet. So I think it is becoming increasingly important for the Church to start addressing some of the "slanders" (as you call them) head on.

[grhammjr]

IMNSHO most members go to church to hear gospel principles, not history.

Maybe so, but life is more then just Sunday morning, history as a hobbie can help deepen some folks understanding of faith, even if not for the masses. Maybe scrapbooking or football is how other choose to spend spare time not used for scripture for study, which is fine as well.

[Tacenda]

I remember and have mentioned before, that we were strongly encouraged to read church history one year, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, I didn't pay it any mind, church history was something that sounded very boring . Maybe the church saw the storm before it happened...the unsavory or true history laid out on the internet, so convenient! BTW, now I can't get enough of church history, and have heard others say they know more about the church than they ever did, when they had their eyes opened, maybe the critics did the church a favor!

[Calm]

The manual can be read for free here.

Unfortunately it appears to be only in English....nope, looks like it is at least in Spanish as well.

add-on and on: Scott has found that it is available in 18 languages...not bad, however I would be curious as to how many members outside Canada and the US have access to the internet. My experience is that among the educated and middle class in Russia, internet access is common, but outside the large cities, it wasn't much. But we were there almost ten years ago so it may be quite different now.

And there does seem access available to those in Europe, but it also seems that at least up till recent, access has been mainly to anti-mormon sites....perhaps because of the limited info in other languages besides English when it comes to stuff outside what the Church publishes.

Edited May 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Alas, I think it has to do with decreased attention spans and refusal by many of today's generations of students to read and study at any great length.

Our stake currently sponsors an Institute class for adults of all ages. It is taught by a retired CES instructor.

There have been other such Institute courses offered in our stake in the past, taught by professional educators.

I don't know how widespread this practice is in the Church, but it's not unheard of.

In our current one there is one going on right now, I believe, but it is not ongoing. I tried for several years up in Canada, I was quite shocked that they didn't have it seeing as there was a high concentration of LDS in the city, an institute building along with a chapel right near by one could meet at and a great turn out for Know Your Religion series that I went to.

[ERayR]

Maybe so, but life is more then just Sunday morning, history as a hobbie can help deepen some folks understanding of faith, even if not for the masses. Maybe scrapbooking or football is how other choose to spend spare time not used for scripture for study, which is fine as well.

If ones inclinations lead them that way don't you think it is incumbent that they take some initiative in searching out the information the Church has already published?

[ERayR]

I remember and have mentioned before, that we were strongly encouraged to read church history one year, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, I didn't pay it any mind, church history was something that sounded very boring .

Thanks Tacenda you have just supported my point. It is/was available for those who were not to bored.

[Nevo]

(Edited to add:

I just went to the online Distribution Center Store entry for the Church History in the Fulness of Times manual. Clicking on the drop-down menu, I find that it can be had in any of 18 languages.)

Well, that is good news. Truly.

[Jude2]

Martin was quite aware that Joseph was using a stone (the use of the hat is implicit). From the January 1988 Ensign:

"On occasion they took breaks from the arduous task, sometimes going to the river and throwing stones. Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them."

Kenneth W. Godfrey, “A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, January 1988.

Yes he probably kept his seer stone near by and if he had a question about something turned to it, he might have at times used his seer stone to translate but;

“On at least six different occasions, Joseph Smith gave brief descriptions of how he translated the Book of Mormon. All six accounts agree that he translated them by the gift and power of God, through the Urim and Thummim.”

Kenneth W. Godfrey, “A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, January 1988

All I’m saying a lot of the comments you’ll read have been made years and years afterwards and memories dim & circumstances get confused. Joseph didn’t just translated the Book of Mormon, he worked on the Bible, the Book of Moses and later the Book of Abraham. He also received many revelations using his seer stone. People watching that process and then relating it back years later more than likely would get thing mixed up, I know I would.

I think the Church has every right to stick to Joseph's and Oliver's version of what happened!