Elder Holland And "More Sure Word Of Prophecy"

[ERMD]

Elder Holland stated this at the conclusion of his address on Sunday-- "These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the 'more sure word of prophecy.'” Considering the reference in the footnote to 2 Peter 1:19 and this from Section 131 of Doctrine and Covenants--"The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood," what do you think he was saying?

[Questing Beast]

Words expressing the same belief that I am in good with God. How can you accuse someone outside of Mormonism, or outside any religion at all, of lying when they tell you they are happy campers and not worried about the afterlife? That is what "sealed up unto eternal life" Is. You know in your heart's core that you are in good with God and have no worries. Millions of people feel that, so I believe from the evidence of my fellow human beings....

[CASteinman]

Elder Holland stated this at the conclusion of his address on Sunday-- "These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the 'more sure word of prophecy.'” Considering the reference in the footnote to 2 Peter 1:19 and this from Section 131 of Doctrine and Covenants--"The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood," what do you think he was saying?

This is somewhat related to a priesthood ordinance: "The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy through the power of the Holy Priesthood."

Here is more detail from Bruce McConkie:

Those members of the Church who devote themselves wholly to righteousness, living by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, make their calling and election sure. That is, they receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. Peter summarized the course of righteousness which the saints must pursue to make their calling and election sure and then (referring to his experience on the Mount of Transfiguration with James and John) said that those three had received this more sure word of prophecy. (2 Pet. 1.)

Joseph Smith taught: "After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shall be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter." To receive the other Comforter is to have Christ appear to him and to see the visions of eternity. (Teachings, pp. 149-151.)

Thus, as the prophet also said, "The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy through the power of the Holy Priesthood." (D. & C. 131:5.) Those so favored of the Lord are sealed up against all manner of sin and blasphemy except the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood. That is, their exaltation is assured; their calling and election is made sure, because they have obeyed the fulness of God's laws and have overcome the world. Though such persons "shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation." (D. & C. 132:26.)

The Lord says to them: Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; . . . and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths." (D. & C. 132:19.) The prophet, for one, had this seal placed upon him. That is, he knew "by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood," that he would attain godhood in the world to come. To him Deity said: "I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father with Abraham your father." (D. & C. 132:49.)

It should be clearly understood that these high blessings are not part of celestial marriage. "Blessings pronounced upon couples in connection with celestial marriage are conditioned upon the subsequent faithfulness of the participating parties." (Doctrines of Salvation vol. 2, pp, 46-47.)

I believe that the references to the Lord saying something to us -- that may be done through His Servants.

As for the reference to actually seeing the Lord, I believe that having your "Calling and Election Made Sure" is preliminary to that -- or, in other words, "Having the More Sure Word of Prophecy" is preliminary to that and may assure that it will happen but will not necessarily guarantee when that will happen.

Edited April 12, 2013 by CASteinman

[Questing Beast]

This doctrine of "calling and election made sure" has always bothered me. Especially the part about still sinning any amount whatsoever, aside from "shedding innocent blood", i.e. denying Christ. It smacks of "born again envy" to me. That is to say, "born agains" assert that they have been saved by confessing Christ and believing in a feeling that they are born again. We of course counter with works as evidence of faith, that you cannot sit back and do nothing, or worse commit grievous sins just because "Jesus saves", you have to work at it your whole life. Without works faith is dead, so much more so "calling and election made sure" is impossible without continuing effort. It shouldn't be any great effort for one who knows what Joy Is, to continue to live accordingly. But one who hasn't much of a clue what Joy Is will allow him/herself to do any manner of fallacious things and continue to assert that Jesus has saved them anyway. LDS point out the fake salvation others assert is theirs, yet JS said much the same thing and in greater detail (D&C 132:26, I don't like Section 132)....

Edited April 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[cdowis]

There is no similarity between this and the false doctrine of "once saved, always saved". If you do not understand the distinction, you do not understand the doctrine.

Finally, your discomfort is based on ignorance of this doctrine. There is no "free pass" for any sins committed

Edited April 12, 2013 by cdowis

[Rivers]

So if one were to apostitize after having his/her election made sure, would that person be son of perdition?

[CASteinman]

So if one were to apostitize after having his/her election made sure, would that person be son of perdition?

No.

[ERMD]

This is somewhat related to a priesthood ordinance: "The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy through the power of the Holy Priesthood."

Here is more detail from Bruce McConkie:

I believe that the references to the Lord saying something to us -- that may be done through His Servants.

As for the reference to actually seeing the Lord, I believe that having your "Calling and Election Made Sure" is preliminary to that -- or, in other words, "Having the More Sure Word of Prophecy" is preliminary to that and may assure that it will happen but will not necessarily guarantee when that will happen.

Agree. I can't recall this being mentioned with such a personal reference this plainly in conference. At least not in the past 20 years or so.

[Rivers]

If I understand correctly, "Having the More Sure Word of Prophecy" and having your "Calling and Election Made Sure" is part of the ordinance known as the Second Annointing.

[cinepro]

If I understand correctly, "Having the More Sure Word of Prophecy" and having your "Calling and Election Made Sure" is part of the ordinance known as the Second Annointing.

I think it used to be, but the Church seems to be getting away from that idea. The idea of having your "Calling and Election Made Sure" seems to be what we call the final stop in our Earthly progress, and not associated with any particular ordinance.

For example:

Although the process of obtaining exaltation continues even into the spirit world, the knowledge that one will become exalted with the privileges of continuing on to eternal life can be certain in this life. This is what making one’s calling and election sure is all about.

Gotta love this though:

Chapter 19: Eternal Life

Doctrines of the Gospel Teacher Manual, (2011), 67–69

Introduction

Caution: Exercise caution while discussing the doctrine of having our calling and election made sure. Avoid speculation. Use only the sources given here and in the student manual. Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing.

Milk before meat indeed.

Edited April 12, 2013 by cinepro

[David T]

Gotta love this though:

WOAH. That's.... fascinating.

Is that the first official printing or affirmation of a "Don't address or talk about the S.A. in any way" policy? Is that also the first official correlated acknowledgement/usage of the term?

Edited April 12, 2013 by David T

[cinepro]

WOAH. That's.... fascinating.

If one were interested in discussing it, the info in this article wouldn't be a bad place to start...

The Second Anointing in Latter-day Saint Theology and Practice

[David T]

If one were interested in discussing it, the info in this article wouldn't be a bad place to start...

The Second Anointing in Latter-day Saint Theology and Practice

I'm very aware of this fantastic article, and its history. The JSPP will also eventually have increasingly more references to it published as well. I just have never seen explicit calling out of the name of it in a 'correlated' manual, as well as an explicit written form of the 'unwritten' concept of not discussing it in class.

Such a policy would make sense as to why Hales' Polygamy books are very careful to excise any reference to it, even when including a reference would greatly clarify a point. In certain sections, it almost seems references to it were excised from his book with an x-acto blade.

Edited April 12, 2013 by David T

[Ahab]

Elder Holland stated this at the conclusion of his address on Sunday-- "These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the 'more sure word of prophecy.'” Considering the reference in the footnote to 2 Peter 1:19 and this from Section 131 of Doctrine and Covenants--"The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood," what do you think he was saying?

It means he's 100% sure and has been assured that he's going to receive eternal life. If you're not that sure, then you still need to work toward receiving that assurance until you are also as 100% sure as he is sure. You can't fake that in your heart. You're either that sure, or you're not, and the assurance doesn't come from you trying to convince yourself but from you being sure that God has assured you it is going to happen.

[Gillebre]

To me, it says that he has received a personal audience with the Savior in his own life (the second Comforter).

Love Elder Holland!

[CASteinman]

I think it used to be, but the Church seems to be getting away from that idea.

Not at all.

[CASteinman]

--->Not to be discussed.

[Ahab]

--->Not to be discussed.

There's not much to discuss on this issue, other than to know it's an issue of being absolutely sure when someone will receive eternal life.

As I said earlier, what Elder Holland meant when he said what he said is that he's 100% sure and has been assured that he's going to receive eternal life. If you're not that sure about whether or not you will receive it, then you still need to work toward receiving that assurance until you are also as 100% sure as he is sure. You can't fake that in your heart. You're either that sure, or you're not, and the assurance doesn't come from you trying to convince yourself but from you being sure that God has assured you it is going to happen.

What else needs to be said about it? The assurance comes when God assures someone they are going to receive eternal life, and nothing anyone else says will make any difference. Others may agree, or others may disagree, but to the person who receives it only what God has said is important and if he says he/I/you/someone else is going to receive it, then it's going to happen... unless that person does something so bad later that God revokes that blessing and they end up becoming a child of Perdition.

[teddyaware]

So if one were to apostitize after having his/her election made sure, would that person be son of perdition?

No.

Not exactly true. If one who's calling and election is made sure apostitizes to the degree where they blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, they will not only not be exalted with a fulness of the glory of God, but they become like unto the son of perdition, cast into outer darkness after the final judgement. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is aslo known as the unpardonable sin. And why is this sin unpardonable? Because those who committ this sin are filled with an implaccable, undying hatred of Jesus Christ and God the Father; this hatred causes individuals such as these to come out in open rebellion against all that is good; and if it were possible they would dethrone God and murder him. And so we read:

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D7C 132)

Those who committ the unpardonable sin desire to cruciify the Son of God afresh and utterly destroy his salvative work. Though these persons may have had the Second Anointing, it is of no avail to them if they blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (i.e.., sin against the greater light of sure knowledge). Paul put it this way:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6)

[MormonMason]

This doctrine of "calling and election made sure" has always bothered me. Especially the part about still sinning any amount whatsoever, aside from "shedding innocent blood", i.e. denying Christ. It smacks of "born again envy" to me....

You should not think of it that way. LDS teachings on the matter are worlds apart from the Evangelical view. There is suffering in hell for those. They still will receive their exaltation but will have to pay the price for willful sin on their own, rising in the second resurrection thereafter. These things are hinted at in Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. But the idea of making one's calling and elction sure is part and parcel of the Bible. It is something we have to do. Such an idea is more in line with LDS thinking than with common Evangelical thought that we can just sit back and ride the escalator.

[Questing Beast]

Sitting back is one thing, doing evil a wholenuther. Section 132 begins to teach that any sin whatsoever will never keep anyone out of heaven. The only qualifier is "the sin against the Holy Ghost", which as this thread indicates, again, is poorly agreed upon as to definition. I don't know anyone who fits the description of "hates God and would murder him if they could". The very idea. People blather in their anger, a lot of nonsense, and yes it can be very hateful in tone. Disappointment does that to people. Their words are not to be taken seriously when in that state of mind.

So I don't see that such a doctrine is helpful, encouraging us to determine who is "in" and who is on their way "out", which is all that can be done with this one.

My doctrine is simple: nobody fails ultimately, because God does not create beings that cannot "get it" and remain miserable forever. That is not a renouncement of free will at all. Because the only way anyone can "get it" is to learn by choices made under imperfect circumstances, so thus we have this kind of world to learn in. No matter how long in human terms it takes to "get it" it's all the same with God, simply NOW. Apprehending that reality is what makes the notion that God creates deliberately flawed and miserable people so heinous. I don't believe it, I can't believe it.

And this leads to Mormonism's doctrine that souls, intelligences, individuals as matter possessing such existence, were not created nor can be, ergo they are saved or damned accordingly; GtF is "off the hook" because he didn't set up the process, he just administers it. Bullwash. No exploration of why/how existence in the first place is asked for, just belief that existence in the first place was always this way with no one and nothing responsible for it. More bullwash. That "God" we are supposed to have utter faith in is not only incapable of elucidating why we exist at all, but is not all powerful to boot. I don't worship that.

Ironically, from a dogmatic Judeo-Christian pov, I feel more confident in my personal salvation than I ever did before I started thinking bigger this way. You'd imagine that an expanding pov that seems endless might create a growing sense of inadequacy. Instead I feel more connected to "God" than at any other time in my life, and all with less dogma to inculcate. Fascinating.

What I believe about myself I also accept for everyone else: everyone has his/her "calling and election made sure" (to borrow the phrase to describe our ultimate destiny), you can believe it NOW or be convinced through hard knocks later, but the choice on the timing isn't really yours, since we can only believe what we believe, but "God" isn't going to ever disconnect from anyone, and will always be leading each soul into situations that are for their most benefit....

Edited April 15, 2013 by Questing Beast

[blackstrap]

Oh QB, you need to get out more. There are a lot of people who would kill Christ, especially if He was wearing an expensive pair of sneakers.

[MormonMason]

Questing, consider that heaven is composed of more than one kingdom of glory. Even the lowliest in the Telestial kingdom will be in heaven. They just still will be cut off from the presence of the Father and Son worlds without end. In addition, there is a price to be paid for sins committed willfully after having one's calling and election made sure. No one is getting off for offenses committed.

[Ahab]

Questing, consider that heaven is composed of more than one kingdom of glory. Even the lowliest in the Telestial kingdom will be in heaven. They just still will be cut off from the presence of the Father and Son worlds without end.

While they are limited to the Telestial, yes, but throughout eternity the people in that lowest order may rise to higher orders while the Telestial order remains for people who haven't advanced out of that order, yet. I believe in eternal progression for everyone, even though at various stages of our progression we are in a particular order at that moment in time.

In addition, there is a price to be paid for sins committed willfully after having one's calling and election made sure. No one is getting off for offenses committed.

There is or will be a point when the price has been paid, though, even though we may have been damned for a while. And while I know being damned is a bad thing, aren't we all lagging behind others who have already advanced beyond where we are right now? There will always be people at every stage of advancement. It's just a matter of how long we stay at a particular level.