Astonished About Early Church History.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think you are overgeneralizing a bit. Some of the staunchest supporters of polygamy in the 19th century Church were women. I cannot fathom that, but I do not think it is accurate to say that all women everywhere feel the same way about polygamy.

My great-great grandfather was a sealer in the Mormon Colonies in Mexico. While there were some post-Manifesto plural marriages, and a bit of turbulence in the years following the Manifesto, I think that sanctioned plural marriages in the Church ended long before 1947. However, I am open to correction of there are sources suggesting that.

The Nauvoo and Exodus periods were very hard times for the Church. I have nothing but compassion for Emma Smith. She went through trials few of us will ever see, let alone experience.

I often think of Emma Smith when I hear stories of people leaving the Church. It reminds me that I do not know the whole story, that God does, and that He will sort it all out in justice and mercy.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am not knowledgeable enough in church history yet to know when "sanctioned" polygamy really ended. And not speaking of the FLDS, I think that there are others who keep their own council and still do it. At age 66, it will never be a problem I will have to consider on a personal level. My study of Emma Smith was driven by the Holy Spirit, and it is not finished yet.

My only source for plural marriage in 1947 came from a "History of the Mormon Church" video on Youtube. I think it was a Non-church production that did not make a distinction between the LDS and the FLDS. I am still learning ...

[thesometimesaint]

EllenMaksoud:

We still get the occasional polygamist, but we excommunicate them as soon as they are found out.

[EllenMaksoud]

Elenmaksoud:

I have compassion for Emma. She was in a very hard place with the death of her husband and brother-in-law, and bleak prospects if she went west with the Saints. That being said she was/is responsible for the choices she made in marrying someone antagonistic to Joseph as Prophet, promoting her son as Prophet.

See http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Emma_Smith

Yes, she made a bad choice perhaps, but as a woman with children, I do not think her choices were many. This man she married later had a child by another woman and then the child and the woman eventually came to live with her. I can not even imagine the pain she felt over all that. In those days, people did what they had to do to survive.

Yesterday, I was told by a member that some of the people who attacked Joseph Smith the most were Ex-members. The burning down of the News Paper did not make Joseph Smith friends. The History around that event is quite interesting and I am still reading. Sometimes those who are anointed by God can lose that anointment, as in Saul of the Old Testament. I'm not saying this happened to Joseph Smith. I just wonder. Also, sometimes people can have a larger effect in death than they did in life.

[Buzzard]

My great-great grandfather was a sealer in the Mormon Colonies in Mexico. While there were some post-Manifesto plural marriages, and a bit of turbulence in the years following the Manifesto, I think that sanctioned plural marriages in the Church ended long before 1947. However, I am open to correction of there are sources suggesting that.

Thanks,

-Smac

I wonder, but do not know, if what she was referring to is that especially in the colonies, but also in some rural locations in the west, polygamous families were allowed to live out their natural lives post-manifesto in full fellowship. I have bemoaned on a couple of occasions that no history of polygamous homes that existed before the end of plural marriage and continued afterward has ever been attempted. It is my understanding that the last member of the church to have lived polygamously with church approval passed away in the 1960's down in the colonies, but he had been a widower for many years.

[Stone holm]

I wonder, but do not know, if what she was referring to is that especially in the colonies, but also in some rural locations in the west, polygamous families were allowed to live out their natural lives post-manifesto in full fellowship. I have bemoaned on a couple of occasions that no history of polygamous homes that existed before the end of plural marriage and continued afterward has ever been attempted. It is my understanding that the last member of the church to have lived polygamously with church approval passed away in the 1960's down in the colonies, but he had been a widower for many years.

There abound reports in the Internet that polygamous unions were still being performed up until the Pres. Of Hebert j. Grant. Whether they are credible or not is another matter. What is clear now is that if you enter into such a relationship or advocate for plural marriage you are in serious trouble with the Church and your excommunication will be flagged for special review before you can be rebaptised even if the violation occurred because of a brief sojourn in Islam.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, she made a bad choice perhaps, but as a woman with children, I do not think her choices were many. This man she married later had a child by another woman and then the child and the woman eventually came to live with her. I can not even imagine the pain she felt over all that. In those days, people did what they had to do to survive.

Yesterday, I was told by a member that some of the people who attacked Joseph Smith the most were Ex-members. The burning down of the News Paper did not make Joseph Smith friends. The History around that event is quite interesting and I am still reading. Sometimes those who are anointed by God can lose that anointment, as in Saul of the Old Testament. I'm not saying this happened to Joseph Smith. I just wonder. Also, sometimes people can have a larger effect in death than they did in life.

It was a sad time in Church history and a real tragedy for Emma. There were no "Good" choices for her. Either she stayed in Nauvoo living in near to absolute poverty and have a much diminished role in the Church, or she could leave with BY and the Saints and be regarded as facilitating the death of her husband and Brother-in-Law.

God doesn't make sock puppets, and I don't expect our Prophets to be perfect. They are men, just like me with all the faults that are common to men. But for some reason God has chosen them to be his Prophets for his Church. It has been my distinct pleasure and awesome responsibility of being a member of the Lords Church for over 40 years now.

[EllenMaksoud]

It was a sad time in Church history and a real tragedy for Emma. There were no "Good" choices for her. Either she stayed in Nauvoo living in near to absolute poverty and have a much diminished role in the Church, or she could leave with BY and the Saints and be regarded as facilitating the death of her husband and Brother-in-Law.

God doesn't make sock puppets, and I don't expect our Prophets to be perfect. They are men, just like me with all the faults that are common to men. But for some reason God has chosen them to be his Prophets for his Church. It has been my distinct pleasure and awesome responsibility of being a member of the Lords Church for over 40 years now.

I am not a member of the church because the GA are perfect. Perfection is not one of my attributes. After a life time of weakness and failures, Heavenly Father placed me here. Maybe before I die, I will finally begin to get it right. The events that have happened to me since I walked (was drug into) the visitor's center at Kirtland have been so powerful in my life that to ignore them would be unthinkable. I would dearly like to be able to sit on the couch with my husband before a fireplace and have a proper, more private discussion of these things, but that is not possible.

[thesometimesaint]

EllenMaksoud:

You're on the right path. We are not our failures and weaknesses, but we are our sometimes feeble attempts to overcome them. With the Lords help we will overcome them all. While I don't feel any older than that young 20 year old new convert. I am forced by looking in my bathroom mirror every morning to know that I'm no longer him. A good back scratch is better than a fireplace anytime.

[cinepro]

And what would the church look like today IF the office of Prophet and President had been heriditary?

I suspect we would have lots of lessons about how the hereditary pattern is God's pattern, and there is no other way, and the other churches that are led by men who aren't directly descended from the prophet of the restoration can't be true, because obviously that's how God does stuff.

[Stone holm]

I suspect we would have lots of lessons about how the hereditary pattern is God's pattern, and there is no other way, and the other churches that are led by men who aren't directly descended from the prophet of the restoration can't be true, because obviously that's how God does stuff.

Right up until the heriditary heirs were all female and then we would have a heart felt discussion about the role of men and women, etc. etc.

[Teancum]

Ellen, welcome to Pandora's box.

There may be some responses that are a little dismissive of this. They are not intentionally patronising. They instead have gone through the process of exploring and discovering and see things like this as a 'non-issue.'

I'm glad you make your testimony independent of the history. That's important and a mature approach.

Can I also recommend fairmormon.org as a useful wiki for addressing and answering a lot of the history questions. They don't always provide all the answers, but there's a well intentioned group of volunteers who work very hard to bring all the challenges and answers into one place.

Why is the bolded item above and important and mature? The founding claims to the truth of the LDS Church are based totally in historical accounts of supernatural events. We are asked to trust those who give those accounts on their word. The behavior and history is all we have to decide wether or not they can be trusted is it not?

[Glenn101]

Why is the bolded item above and important and mature? The founding claims to the truth of the LDS Church are based totally in historical accounts of supernatural events. We are asked to trust those who give those accounts on their word. The behavior and history is all we have to decide wether or not they can be trusted is it not?

No, we are not asked to trust those who gavethose accounts on their word? We are told to go to the source and ask God if those accounts are true.

Glenn

[Calm]

I suppose, but though I tend to be generous to a fault sometimes on such matters -- I think that Calmoriah may have been slightly too generous if she really feels that the RLDS was an inspired group.

I think it is possible to be inspired to do something and then to misuse what started as an inspired work.

[Calm]

It was a sad time in Church history and a real tragedy for Emma. There were no "Good" choices for her. Either she stayed in Nauvoo living in near to absolute poverty and have a much diminished role in the Church, or she could leave with BY and the Saints and be regarded as facilitating the death of her husband and Brother-in-Law.

And one needs to considered she had taken on the role of caring for Lucy Mack Smith, who was too ill at the time to travel.

[EllenMaksoud]

There abound reports in the Internet that polygamous unions were still being performed up until the Pres. Of Hebert j. Grant. Whether they are credible or not is another matter. What is clear now is that if you enter into such a relationship or advocate for plural marriage you are in serious trouble with the Church and your excommunication will be flagged for special review before you can be rebaptised even if the violation occurred because of a brief sojourn in Islam.

If you do not have lots of psychological background ... well I hesitate to speak of this, but here goes.

It has been a while and I will say that walking away from Islam was extremely difficult. All the time I was Muslim, Jesus Christ was still in the back of my mind, and Muslims believe in Jesus Christ but as a prophet and not the son of God. They also do not believe he was crucified.

At the time I became Muslim, my old church would not have a thing to do with me. I was totally bereft, lost everything and was a few days from living on the street at one time. I was feeling extremely guilty, lost, worthless and guilty. So when I was approached about Islam, they were the only people talking to me at all.

So, with the donning of the Abaya, and Hijab, not looking at men at all, praying 5 times a day, observing food restrictions all fed on my sense of complete lostness. Many converts to Islam do so for the same reasons. I lived Islam for 6+ years, and not once did I attend "Bomb Making 101".

I joined Islam because my entire "christian world" threw me away, and walked away. You'll have to understand that many christians are fine with punishing, but don't know anything about forgiving. The very idea that anyone would seek to punish me in the church for having been Muslim just makes feel really insulted and about to foam at the mouth.

I am in the church because Heavenly Father wanted me there, and the Holy Spirit dragged me to a place where I could get help. My presence in the church has nothing to do with past church history. It is because of who Mormons are today that I stayed. I would still wear the abaya and Hijab now, not because I want to be Muslim, but because I want to show Heavenly Father every bit of respect that is humanly possible.

[Avatar4321]

That is a very generous view of a group which until relatively recently was extremely anti-Mormon .

Shouldn't our viewpoints of all groups be extremely generous?

Edited April 10, 2013 by Avatar4321

[Avatar4321]

You'll have to understand that many christians are fine with punishing, but don't know anything about forgiving.

Extremely sad, but also extremely true

[cinepro]

Right up until the heriditary heirs were all female and then we would have a heart felt discussion about the role of men and women, etc. etc.

But that would never happen. Obviously God would make sure the office is filled properly. If He can arrange the lifespans of 15 men to ensure the proper one occupies the Presidency, He could certainly help out with the fertility of a woman or two.

[Brenda]

I have a lot of respect for Emma. I feel that she did the best she could. Emma was, in my estimation, an awesome woman.

I agree. No one can fairly judge Emma w/o walking a few miles in her shoes. Which we can't. After what she went through, I'll cut her all the slack she needs.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Brenda

[Teancum]

No, we are not asked to trust those who gavethose accounts on their word? We are told to go to the source and ask God if those accounts are true.

Glenn

Why ask God if you cannot trust them? Why ask God when for many the asking is based on limited info that is presented in its best light?

[Jaynee Doe]

That being said she was/is responsible for the choices she made in marrying someone antagonistic to Joseph as Prophet, promoting her son as Prophet.

See http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Emma_Smith

Your claim that Bidamon was antagonistic to Joseph is simply not true, and in fact, makes no sense.

Your Wiki link about Emma does not mention Bidamon's feelings for Joseph, whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you posted it. However, the Lewis Bidamon Wiki article states:

Bidamon was not a Latter Day Saint; he believed that Joseph Smith was an honest man but that Smith had somehow been deceived into believing he was a prophet.

Thinking someone honest but misguided does not rise to the level of "antagonistic."

In addition, Bidamon's Wiki reference states:

In 1846, just as the Latter Day Saints were beginning to depart Nauvoo, Illinois, Bidamon moved to Nauvoo. He was a lieutenant colonel of the 32nd Regiment of the Illinois militia, and he helped control the violence being perpetuated against the Latter Day Saints.

This is why your comment makes no sense. If Bidamon had truly been antagonistic towards Joseph, he could have easily opted to side with the mob whose antagonism for Joseph was abundant. But he chose to align with those helping the Mormons. It's highly unlikely someone antagonistic toward Joseph would have done so.

[MormonMason]

Bidamon is in great part responsible for why we no longer have most of the papyri that Joseph Smith originally had in his possession. He parceled them out to various individuals rather than keeping it all together.

[Jaynee Doe]

Bidamon is in great part responsible for why we no longer have most of the papyri that Joseph Smith originally had in his possession. He parceled them out to various individuals rather than keeping it all together.

No, he did not.

According to the Maxwell Institute article A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri:

On 26 May 1856, less than two weeks after Mother Smith died, Emma Smith (Joseph's widow), her second husband, Lewis C. Bidamon, and her son, Joseph Smith III, sold the mummies and the papyri to Abel Combs.⁹

Abel Combs split up the papyri. Some he sold to the St. Louis Museum, including at least two of the rolls and at least two of the mummies; some of the mounted fragments he kept.

Perhaps you are thinking of The Book of Mormon manuscript, which had been placed by Joseph in one of the cornerstones of the Nauvoo Mansion. Years later Bidamon was doing some work on the mansion and came upon the manuscript. Visitors who had ties to Mormonism, including Assistant Church Historian Franklin D. Richards, asked to see the papers, and Bidamon would often give a few pages to them as a sort of souvenir. While it is tragic a document of such historical value wasn't kept together and taken care of properly, it certainly was not done maliciously, and in fact, appears to have been a kind gesture.

[Glenn101]

Why ask God if you cannot trust them? Why ask God when for many the asking is based on limited info that is presented in its best light?

Because you can trust God. You don't know enough about the history of the people that you do not trust to make a righteous judgment on them.

God can tell you if Joseph Smith was a prophet and an instrument of God in the restoration of the gospel. History cannot do that. It cannot affirm or refute it. God can tell you if Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. History cannot tell you that. History cannot affirm it, and has been unable to refute it. God can tell you if the Book of Abraham is an inspired body of work. History cannot tell you that. It cannot affirm or refute. You may believe that history has refuted the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, but the reality is different. God can tell you whether the Book of Moses is an inspired work. History most certainly cannot afirm or deny that.

None of the prophets have asked us to "trust me". They have always told us to put our trust in the Lord, which is perfectly in line with the scriptures, both Biblical and the "new" ones.

Glenn

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why ask God if you cannot trust them? Why ask God when for many the asking is based on limited info that is presented in its best light?

I have found that we can ask anything you like, having studied it out first.