Astonished About Early Church History.

[EllenMaksoud]

Let me first say that my faith in The Church Of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints does not depend on history that occurred before March 13, 2011.

So, I started reading on early church history today and this time included secular sources where I came upon them. I found reference to Joseph Smith III and saw that he was deemed as successor to his father, and knowing that he was 12 when he died, I wanted to know the background to all this. Later, I read that his wife, Emma was opposed to polygamy and said that it never happened. Well, I can understand why she would say that, whether it had happened or not. Nothing makes a woman feel more disgraced than to learn that her husband has taken another wife. I saw this in Islam and do not believe that Muslim women are much different than other women.

I have read and heard accounts of polygamy occurring in the LDS church until 1947, and I still do not care as long as none of the participating parties feel abused.

I can think of about a half dozen reasons why Emma might have said there was no such thing as Polygamy, and can not find any fault in her, no matter what she said. The number of children she had die very soon after birth would certainly be extremely difficult for any woman to bear. I think it is very sad that the church split after Joseph Smith's death.

I had brief contact with the RLDS in 1974, and left when one of those elders told me not to read the Bible.

In reading from Wiki sources, Community of Christ sources, and LDS sources, it seems that they all have a story to tell. That they differ in some respects is not bothersome to me.

[urroner]

Having been through the grinder of life, I suffer from depression, I have a lot of respect for Emma. I feel that she did the best she could. Emma was, in my estimation, an awesome woman.

Now, given that, I need to ask you Ellen, are you making a statement or asking a question?

[canard78]

Ellen, welcome to Pandora's box.

There may be some responses that are a little dismissive of this. They are not intentionally patronising. They instead have gone through the process of exploring and discovering and see things like this as a 'non-issue.'

I'm glad you make your testimony independent of the history. That's important and a mature approach.

Can I also recommend fairmormon.org as a useful wiki for addressing and answering a lot of the history questions. They don't always provide all the answers, but there's a well intentioned group of volunteers who work very hard to bring all the challenges and answers into one place.

[Stone holm]

Emma is a difficult personage to deal with and she went through an awful lot in her life. The nuances of the Church's attitude towards the elect Lady has changed over the years. It seems like as Emma's star has risen that Eliza Snow's has dwindled some. I can't help to suspect that the refurbishment of her image in the modern Church has some connection with the increased emphasis on family brought on by Pres. McKay. Be that as it may, for all his brilliance, and he was brilliant, Brigham Young was not an easy man to associate with at times. His relationship with his successor was a very rocky one, and Brigham aim a lot of the blame for Joseph and Hyrums deaths Emma's way. That had to have been a very bitter pill for Emma to swallow after all she had been through so, I think the modern approach is the better one to just respect all the good things she did and understand the terrible griefs that she went through and just let the RLDS episode slide into the dustbin of history.

[EllenMaksoud]

Having been through the grinder of life, I suffer from depression, I have a lot of respect for Emma. I feel that she did the best she could. Emma was, in my estimation, an awesome woman.

Now, given that, I need to ask you Ellen, are you making a statement or asking a question?

Making a statement, I suppose. I'm not going to compare my stress and trauma with anyone elses. I am alive because Heavenly Father sent me to the Mormon Sisters.

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen, welcome to Pandora's box.

There may be some responses that are a little dismissive of this. They are not intentionally patronising. They instead have gone through the process of exploring and discovering and see things like this as a 'non-issue.'

I'm glad you make your testimony independent of the history. That's important and a mature approach.

Can I also recommend fairmormon.org as a useful wiki for addressing and answering a lot of the history questions. They don't always provide all the answers, but there's a well intentioned group of volunteers who work very hard to bring all the challenges and answers into one place.

One of the things that helped settle me in becoming Mormon, was when I was studying with the sisters, I would deliberately go to Youtube and look up what Ex Mormons would say. All of them just seemed to say things that were gripy, irrelevant or not truthful. I felt more at ease after that. So, I am very open to divergent views.

[EllenMaksoud]

Emma is a difficult personage to deal with and she went through an awful lot in her life. The nuances of the Church's attitude towards the elect Lady has changed over the years. It seems like as Emma's star has risen that Eliza Snow's has dwindled some. I can't help to suspect that the refurbishment of her image in the modern Church has some connection with the increased emphasis on family brought on by Pres. McKay. Be that as it may, for all his brilliance, and he was brilliant, Brigham Young was not an easy man to associate with at times. His relationship with his successor was a very rocky one, and Brigham aim a lot of the blame for Joseph and Hyrums deaths Emma's way. That had to have been a very bitter pill for Emma to swallow after all she had been through so, I think the modern approach is the better one to just respect all the good things she did and understand the terrible griefs that she went through and just let the RLDS episode slide into the dustbin of history.

I am very well acquainted with differering perceptions of the same event. Look into the Sunni/Shia conflict. Look into human conflict situations like divorces and deaths in the family.

Sometimes people come to conclusions completely outside the facts of an event. It is not my intention bring into question the integrity of anyone involved and am very at ease with the history being recorded that allows for conflicting views.

[Calm]

there's a well intentioned group of volunteers who work very hard to bring all the challenges and answers into one place.

Thank you....I just might pass this on to the group.

[EllenMaksoud]

Thank you....I just might pass this on to the group.

Surely, do pass it on to the group is you wish. Please try to understand that I am a very inquisitive, analytical person, so doing research is like what I do. I intended no harm, and if you feel there is a better place to share what I find, I will go there. I do not intend to harm anyone's faith.

My own experience in being introduced to the LDS faith is so compelling that it was impossible to discount or ignore.

[PoisonWell]

Can I also recommend fairmormon.org as a useful wiki for addressing and answering a lot of the history questions. They don't always provide all the answers, but there's a well intentioned group of volunteers who work very hard to bring all the challenges and answers into one place.

Well intentioned, but their intentions are in no way actual fairness, like their name implies. Although they don't hide the truth by any means, I haven't found their articles to always be convincing or unbiased. They stretch their arguments and come off as too biased in some instances, in my opinion. Edited April 9, 2013 by PoisonWell

[Calm]

Surely, do pass it on to the group is you wish. Please try to understand that I am a very inquisitive, analytical person, so doing research is like what I do. I intended no harm, and if you feel there is a better place to share what I find, I will go there. I do not intend to harm anyone's faith.

My own experience in being introduced to the LDS faith is so compelling that it was impossible to discount or ignore.

I was referring to his positive comment about FAIR, it is nice to hear those from time to time as it is our only payment.

As far as what you have said, I am enjoying the discussion as I usually do when you contribute, you have a very thoughtful, often insightful way of saying things....and this board is a wonderful place to have that discussion.

[EllenMaksoud]

I was referring to his positive comment about FAIR, it is nice to hear those from time to time as it is our only payment.

As far as what you have said, I am enjoying the discussion as I usually do when you contribute, you have a very thoughtful, often insightful way of saying things....and this board is a wonderful place to have that discussion.

Ok, thank you. I just don't want to be in trouble, just can't do that, had enough hurt. If I cross the boundaries of what is permissible, please tell me.

[Calm]

If I cross the boundaries of what is permissible, please tell me.

Definitely will, don't worry about that.

[EllenMaksoud]

Tonight I was able to find the movie, on netflix, called "Emma Smith, My Life". It is an LDS movie and tells the story much more completely than any thing I have seen. It has the familiar Nathan Mitchell, and Patricia Place. It did a lot to help me put things together. Those who have not seen it, it will be an enjoyment.

[why me]

Having been through the grinder of life, I suffer from depression, I have a lot of respect for Emma. I feel that she did the best she could. Emma was, in my estimation, an awesome woman.

And yet, one has to wonder just what Emma would have become if she went west with the saints. Instead she stayed behind and allowed her son to become president of an offshoot church.

[Calm]

And yet, one has to wonder just what Emma would have become if she went west with the saints. Instead she stayed behind and allowed her son to become president of an offshoot church.

And perhaps she was inspired to do so to help provide another safe haven for the Saints that would not have been able to spiritually, physically or emotionally endure the additional hardships after so many that would continue on for another 60 years or so to allow them to live up to the light that they were able to endure rather than having to lose it all.

[bcuzbcuz]

And yet, one has to wonder just what Emma would have become if she went west with the saints. Instead she stayed behind and allowed her son to become president of an offshoot church.

Well, Joseph had said that his son, among others, should take over as leader. Emma heard it and understood it to be so. She never considered that group to be an off-shoot

[Stone holm]

And perhaps she was inspired to do so to help provide another safe haven for the Saints that would not have been able to spiritually, physically or emotionally endure the additional hardships after so many that would continue on for another 60 years or so to allow them to live up to the light that they were able to endure rather than having to lose it all.

That is a very generous view of a group which until relatively recently was extremely anti-Mormon .

[Glenn101]

That is a very generous view of a group which until relatively recently was extremely anti-Mormon .

Shouldn't that be our viewpoint, i.e. generous, loving, and forgiving of all those who oppose our faith? (That does not mean we have to agree with them, but we need to love them, no matter what.)

Glenn

[canard78]

Thank you....I just might pass this on to the group.

Please do. Fairmormon.org is a labour of love and has certainly saved testimonies that were on the rocks.

[alter idem]

Well, Joseph had said that his son, among others, should take over as leader. Emma heard it and understood it to be so. She never considered that group to be an off-shoot

And what would the church look like today IF the office of Prophet and President had been heriditary? Do you think the church would have been able to become the 'stone, cut without hands, rolling forward to fill the whole earth' if early saints had taken the claims of a handful of people to follow a time honored but, uninspired way of choosing a new prophet? I doubt it. The RLDS church did choose Joseph Smith III for the prophet, yet even they have abandoned that pattern for choosing a new Prophet. Joseph may have hoped for his son to one day become Prophet, and I'm certain Emma wanted that for her son as well. If events had turned out differently, he very well may have one day attained that office in the church.

No family had more to lose than mine by not keeping the control of the church in Smith family hands, but it is clear that the pattern they adopted of calling the President of the Quorum of the 12 is the right and correct way--and shows divine inspiration.

[EllenMaksoud]

And what would the church look like today IF the office of Prophet and President had been heriditary? Do you think the church would have been able to become the 'stone, cut without hands, rolling forward to fill the whole earth' if early saints had taken the claims of a handful of people to follow a time honored but, uninspired way of choosing a new prophet? I doubt it. The RLDS church did choose Joseph Smith III for the prophet, yet even they have abandoned that pattern for choosing a new Prophet. Joseph may have hoped for his son to one day become Prophet, and I'm certain Emma wanted that for her son as well. If events had turned out differently, he very well may have one day attained that office in the church.

No family had more to lose than mine by not keeping the control of the church in Smith family hands, but it is clear that the pattern they adopted of calling the President of the Quorum of the 12 is the right and correct way--and shows divine inspiration.

Heavenly Father is not finished having me think about this subject. One thing that occurred to me is that perhaps Heavenly Father does not often chose to use family lineage to provide succession. At least it is not a hard rule that he do so. And, it was years after Joseph Smith's death that the RLDS had him for a leader.

The telling of history truthfully is sad and inconvenient and few do it. The Movie, "Emma Smith, My Story", leaves out any reference to polygamy, yet we know that at least some did it. I am not putting a negative connotation on Polygamy. The movie also does not show what happened to her children who lived. I find the idea that the telling of the truth should be bent to make one side look better than the other, whether by lies or simple disemblment to be offensive.

I am LDS Mormon. Heavenly Father placed me here to be cared for and to care for others. I am adult enough to handle the whole truth. Anyone who disagrees can consider yourself chewed out.

Edited April 9, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[smac97]

Let me first say that my faith in The Church Of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints does not depend on history that occurred before March 13, 2011.

So, I started reading on early church history today and this time included secular sources where I came upon them. I found reference to Joseph Smith III and saw that he was deemed as successor to his father, and knowing that he was 12 when he died, I wanted to know the background to all this. Later, I read that his wife, Emma was opposed to polygamy and said that it never happened. Well, I can understand why she would say that, whether it had happened or not. Nothing makes a woman feel more disgraced than to learn that her husband has taken another wife. I saw this in Islam and do not believe that Muslim women are much different than other women.

I think you are overgeneralizing a bit. Some of the staunchest supporters of polygamy in the 19th century Church were women. I cannot fathom that, but I do not think it is accurate to say that all women everywhere feel the same way about polygamy.

I have read and heard accounts of polygamy occurring in the LDS church until 1947, and I still do not care as long as none of the participating parties feel abused.

My great-great grandfather was a sealer in the Mormon Colonies in Mexico. While there were some post-Manifesto plural marriages, and a bit of turbulence in the years following the Manifesto, I think that sanctioned plural marriages in the Church ended long before 1947. However, I am open to correction of there are sources suggesting that.

I can think of about a half dozen reasons why Emma might have said there was no such thing as Polygamy, and can not find any fault in her, no matter what she said. The number of children she had die very soon after birth would certainly be extremely difficult for any woman to bear. I think it is very sad that the church split after Joseph Smith's death.

The Nauvoo and Exodus periods were very hard times for the Church. I have nothing but compassion for Emma Smith. She went through trials few of us will ever see, let alone experience.

I often think of Emma Smith when I hear stories of people leaving the Church. It reminds me that I do not know the whole story, that God does, and that He will sort it all out in justice and mercy.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Stone holm]

Shouldn't that be our viewpoint, i.e. generous, loving, and forgiving of all those who oppose our faith? (That does not mean we have to agree with them, but we need to love them, no matter what.)

Glenn

I suppose, but though I tend to be generous to a fault sometimes on such matters -- I think that Calmoriah may have been slightly too generous if she really feels that the RLDS was an inspired group.

[thesometimesaint]

Elenmaksoud:

I have compassion for Emma. She was in a very hard place with the death of her husband and brother-in-law, and bleak prospects if she went west with the Saints. That being said she was/is responsible for the choices she made in marrying someone antagonistic to Joseph as Prophet, promoting her son as Prophet.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Smith