Freemasonry And Endowment?

[volgadon]

Still looking for a time that I took a position on this that I backtracked from.

Find it yet?

You claim that Mike is not credible as he knows no Chinese. One of the experts appealed to knew no Chinese either. Is he still credible because he confirms the position that you are defending?

[Mike Reed]

You claim that Mike is not credible as he knows no Chinese. One of the experts appealed to knew no Chinese either. Is he still credible because he confirms the position that you are defending?

you are asking amatuer apologists to be consistant? Good luck with that.

[MormonMason]

Another source that says they are scissors:

"Han period漢 (206 BCE-220 CE) stone bricks therefore depict Fu Xi and Nü wa with a human body ending in intertwining dragon tails, each of them holding an instrument of architects, namely scissors (ju 榘) and rulers (gui 規).

http://www.chinaknow...ersonsfuxi.html

...

That guy has some serious problems differentiating vocabulary, in my opinion. Following are dictionary entries relative to the subject. I am using gifs to represent the characters because I cannot guarantee the fonts will come through for all readers otherwise. Transliteration follows the Chinese characters.

cut with scissors; scissors: (jiǎn)

scissors: (jiǎn dāo)

cut with scissors; scissors: (jiǎn)

scissors: (jiǎo)

compass; rule: (guī)

carpenter's square; rule: (jǔ)

magnetic compass: (zhǐ nán zhēn)

And, for crying out loud, how many ancient (or even modern) architects actually used (use) "scissors" to plan buildings, bridges and so forth? Squares and compasses I can see but scissors? Must we really run down that rabbit hole?

ETA: By the way, the word your "authority" gives for "scissors" actually is a variant for carpenter's square! Don't believe it? Look it up!

Note: I have tried several times to get the link to a pinyin-English dictionary to post for you to go straight to the page but this board's software interferes with the link every time. I am trying this again using hand-coded Unicode, here:

http://chinese.yabla...ry.php?define=榘

So, if this does not work, what you will have to do is to copy the Unicode symbol your "authority" gives for the word he says means scissors and paste it into the text field and run the search. You will see the exact match for the character in question and the fact that it is a variant spelling for a word meaning "carpenter's square." Whoops!

Edited April 8, 2013 by MormonMason

[Peppermint Patty]

But now I am called the ridiculous one... Have I suddenly entered an alternate universe?

Mike, I've been trying to follow the various arguments, and I also feel like I've entered the:

[Mike Reed]

Lol! You are so cool pp!

[CASteinman]

One of the experts appealed to knew no Chinese either. Is he still credible because he confirms the position that you are defending?

I do not know. I did not claim he was. In fact, I specifically avoided it because I did not know and wondered. I did however ask you about the relative credentials between these two people -- as you seemed to know about such things.

And no answer.

[Mike Reed]

That guy has some serious problems differentiating vocabulary, in my opinion. Following are dictionary entries relative to the subject. I am using gifs to represent the characters because I cannot guarantee the fonts will come through for all readers otherwise. Transliteration follows the Chinese characters.

cut with scissors; scissors: (jiǎn)

scissors: (jiǎn dāo)

cut with scissors; scissors: (jiǎn)

scissors: (jiǎo)

compass; rule: (guī)

carpenter's square; rule: (jǔ)

magnetic compass: (zhǐ nán zhēn)

And, for crying out loud, how many ancient (or even modern) architects actually used (use) "scissors" to plan buildings, bridges and so forth? Squares and compasses I can see but scissors? Must we really run down that rabbit hole?

so you are stuck on the architect statement.... Let it go... I mean... Partition walls and silk screen was not unheard of in Chinese culture.... But imagine that his English wasn't the best... Now what..?.. You still have the same burden of proof. Care to step up to it?

[Mike Reed]

In case you forgot where we are at, here it is again: it is about this time that I start to think that there is no sense in talking sense to the senseless. Mm said that the art matched the garments on the same sides, but then I explained that he had things backwards, and he responded that this was not the case for veils... He then called them veils, and when I asked him how silks hung on walls functioned as veils, he said that thin silks can be identified as veils, since they are so thin...Stupid, but whatever... Then it was pointed out that the compass may not be a compass afterall.... But rather scissors.... Material culture supports this, but opponents have insisted that mythology says otherwise... But when challenged over this statement of fact, they haven't been able to deliver the goods....all they have is a bandwagon appeal... But now I am called the ridiculous one... Have I suddenly entered an alternate universe?

[Nemesis]

I do not know. I did not claim he was. In fact, I specifically avoided it because I did not know and wondered. I did however ask you about the relative credentials between these two people -- as you seemed to know about such things.

And no answer.

Get back to the topic or stay out of it please. Further derailments will be deleted and offenders banned from the topic.

Nemesis

[volgadon]

And, for crying out loud, how many ancient (or even modern) architects actually used (use) "scissors" to plan buildings, bridges and so forth? Squares and compasses I can see but scissors? Must we really run down that rabbit hole?

Look at her earliest role, that of mender of creation. If she even does appear as a creator (which is uncertain), it is a far more limited role than Fuxi's. As some of the interpretations have them as a combination of different principles, why would both have to have the same set of tools?

[CASteinman]

Look at her earliest role, that of mender of creation. If she even does appear as a creator (which is uncertain), it is a far more limited role than Fuxi's. As some of the interpretations have them as a combination of different principles, why would both have to have the same set of tools?

In all of the accounts where she is mending, she uses some set of stones. (I don't get how that works, but that's the story)

Edited April 8, 2013 by CASteinman

[volgadon]

In all of the accounts where she is mending, she uses some set of stones. (I don't get how that works, but that's the story)

She also cuts the legs off of a tortoise.

Edited April 8, 2013 by volgadon

[CASteinman]

She also cuts the legs off of a tortoise.

Actually... I have not brought this up before, but the machine translation says that she "breaks" them. I did not bring it up because I haven't looked at it very closely.

[MormonMason]

CFR. I want quotes from the primary sources, not commentary from secondary sources.

Good luck with that. I do not have access to any of my books right now, and where I temporarily dwell, in a backwoods part of the country with a pitiful library at best, I have no access to decent materials relating to the subject except what is available online. Sorry, but them's the breaks...

[Calm]

Actually... I have not brought this up before, but the machine translation says that she "breaks" them. I did not bring it up because I haven't looked at it very closely.

Other translations have it as "cut off". Does not describe how it is done...if it is a giant turtle, I would think with a knife but who knows....unless the specific is written somewhere.

I have read that we don't really have a coherent picture of ancient Chinese creation myths, just fragments here and there. If so, there may be a reason that scissors are associated with her that is not given in what we have at the moment, but I have to agree with MM if one takes the context from the stories that have been passed, compass makes more sense to me.

It would be great if someone who is actually very familiar with ancient Chinese mythology--both art and literature--would put in their opinion.

Edited April 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Mike Reed]

Good luck with that. I do not have access to any of my books right now, and where I temporarily dwell, in a backwoods part of the country with a pitiful library at best, I have no access to decent materials relating to the subject except what is available online. Sorry, but them's the breaks...

that is what u always say, mm... You are never quite in reach in the sources that matter.

[Calm]

that is what u always say, mm... You are never quite in reach in the sources that matter.

People do have lives.

[MormonMason]

An interesting site especially for LDS about this

It would be interesting to see if that proves true

http://www.templestu...compass-square/

It appears to be true. Consider the following evidence from a pinyin-English dictionary:

guī ju

lit. compass and set square fig. established standard rule customs practices fig. upright and honest well-behaved

See the 2nd entry here:

http://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-english-pinyin-dictionary.php?define=gui+ju

Pinyin, by the way, is Chinese written with Roman characters.

[Mike Reed]

People do have lives.

they do indeed... I have a life too, BTW... Working on my doctorate in fact... But there is a pattern here..... He backs out at the most convenient times. will he suddenly step up and validate all of the loose ends listed above? No... He won't... And people will forget his failure.... And move on to the next topic, as though he is an authority, because his avatar is Mormon mason.

[MormonMason]

so you are stuck on the architect statement.... Let it go... I mean... Partition walls and silk screen was not unheard of in Chinese culture.... But imagine that his English wasn't the best... Now what..?.. You still have the same burden of proof. Care to step up to it?

The guy used the wrong vocabulary. That is mostly my point. Check the Chinese for yourself.

The architect comment was an afterthought.

[MormonMason]

Look at her earliest role, that of mender of creation. If she even does appear as a creator (which is uncertain), it is a far more limited role than Fuxi's. As some of the interpretations have them as a combination of different principles, why would both have to have the same set of tools?

In her earliest role she also planned the path of the "celestial river." Compasses are one such planning tool, not scissors. In early Han Dynasty carvings and inscriptions she is also sometimes shown with a set square.

[MormonMason]

that is what u always say, mm... You are never quite in reach in the sources that matter.

Unfortunately, that is the sad truth in my situation. I can do nothing about it. I can say that I am so looking forward to being home and being with my books once again. Unfortunately, there is not a lot I can do about it and not much more I am willing to say relative to it. Just try not to get the thread shut down prematurely...

[MormonMason]

People do have lives.

Yes, and some have lives they sometimes wish they didn't have, one that gets so hectic and calls me away from all computer access from time to time. I cannot help that although it upsets Mike to no end.

But, to get back to the subject, check the Chinese-English of Mike's "web authority" on Chinese vocabulary as it relates to English. There are quite a few errors there.

But, the curious thing is that the phrase gui ju, "square and compasses" indeed does represent in a loose but cogent sense "the way things should be" in Chinese. This also has connections to Fuxi and Nuwa mythology. Indeed, Fuxi and Nuwa taught and created social order among the creations of Nuwa, according to the traditional mythology.

And, this does have connections with Masonic ideas involving the square and compasses, including connections with the instruments in the more esoteric understanding of these working tools. They have moral significance, just as they do in Freemasonry. And, the square represents earth and the compasses heaven, or more deeply, the square represents the flesh and the compasses the spirit, with progressive ascendancy of the spiritual over the carnal in each Degree of Masonry in the Blue Lodge.

It is of interest in that light that square and compasses have similar connections in Chinese traditional thought regarding the square representing earth and the compasses representing the heavens. Indeed, Nuwa does have connection with the heavens in the old traditions. Her holding of the compasses is appropriate in that light, which makes a heck of a lot more sense than her using scissors as a working tool in creation.

There is another working tool that Nuwa used to create man, by the way. It is the vine. In some representations one can see in her hand the compasses with a vine twisted around one leg of the compasses. It is consistent to view things this way. It is inconsistent to see scissors in this connection, especially considering the connections of Fuxi and Nuwa with gui ju, "compasses and set square," "the moral order," or "the way things should be."

Edited April 8, 2013 by MormonMason

[Nathair/|\]

She also cuts the legs off of a tortoise.

How does the tortoise swim through the void with four elephants and the world disk on it's back without any legs?

[MormonMason]

How does the tortoise swim through the void with four elephants and the world disk on it's back without any legs?

Didn't the Buddha say somewhere that there is a special place somewhere for such people as ask such questions?