Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Mike Reed]

You actually want Chinese Documents? From people who don't read Chinese? That is over the top.

Translations of Chinese passages will be sufficient.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

"Han period漢 (206 BCE-220 CE) stone bricks therefore depict Fu Xi and Nü wa with a human body ending in intertwining dragon tails, each of them holding an instrument of architects, namely scissors (ju 榘) and rulers (gui 規).

I notice that this is not a "primary source" per se. Not sure what it even is, but it is very interesting. I am glad you found it. I do not read Chinese so I have to trust the English Translation.

[Mike Reed]

Says you, and (almost) nobody else. You have to scour the earth to find one or two questionable sources to back up your claim. I can find thousands of books that support mine. Did you click on the link to Google Books search results for "nuwa square compass" that I had provided, and especially note the relevant extracts from the books that Google had supplied next to each book? Try it. Some of these are quite reputable books, published by Oxford and other reputable publications.

I tried the same search for "nuwa square scissors" instead, and found zero results.

Fallacy: Bandwagon appeal.

The British Museum of Art is not a questionable source.

Agian... you need to produce photos of originals, not artists reproductions. How long must I wait?

[mathonihah]

Another source that says they are scissors:

"Han period漢 (206 BCE-220 CE) stone bricks therefore depict Fu Xi and Nü wa with a human body ending in intertwining dragon tails, each of them holding an instrument of architects, namely scissors (ju 榘) and rulers (gui 規).

http://www.chinaknow...ersonsfuxi.html

Can you tell me how "scissors" can be an "instrument of architects"? He probably means a compass, but doesn't know how to say it in English. And here is my proof!

The Author's credentials:

• Author: Ulrich Theobald (Tian Yuli 田宇利, style Shudouting 數豆亭 "The [man from the] Nitpicker Studio")
  
• "born in a poor family, he started loving books and especially the Confucian Classics already at the tender age of six"
  
• 1991-2000 Studies in Biology, Chemistry, Chinese Studies, Politics and Modern History at the University of Tübingen/Germany, and Nanjing University
  
• 2000 Master of Arts thesis "The Image of Empress Lü (died 180 BCE) in Chinese Literature and Historiography"
  
• 2009 Ph Dissertation "War Finance and Logistics in 18th Century China: An Analysis of the Second Jinchuan Campaign (1771-1776)"
  
• Teaching Chinese History at the Department of Chinese and Korean Studies, University of Tübingen
  
• Main research interests:
  
  • Empresses in Chinese history
    
  • Chinese financial and economic history
    
  • The history of science and technology in China
    
  • Comparative military history
    
  • Chinese lacquerwork
    
  • Paleography
    

http://www.chinaknow...bout/about.html

You omitted quite a bit of stuff from there. Here is a couple of paragraphs that precedes the above, which you had omitted to quote (Emphasis in bold italics added by me):

Sources

:

The sources I use are scholarly standard books on China and her environment published in different European and Asian languages

. I have not copied any sentences from these works except translations of Chinese literature. In such cases authors and their books are cited, and if the book is still available on the market, I will indicate this.

The contents of historical maps are processed on the base of Chinese atlases.

Images are scanned from Chinese works not claiming copyright.

Acknowledgements:

I would like to thank everyone who contributes to the quality of this online encyclopedia.

I apologize for my mediocre English

and try my best to improve it over time.

Link

.

Two things to note here. Firstly he acknowledges that his English is not very good, and is not communicating very well. Secondly, he says that he is quoting from scholarly and standard books on China, but fails to mention his source for given information. I can point to thousands of reliable scholarly sources that say compass. He is a self-styled scholar publishing on the Internet who by his own admission doesn't communicate very well in English, and provides no references for his information. So which is more reliable, him or Google Books search results?

Edited April 7, 2013 by mathonihah

[Mike Reed]

I notice that this is not a "primary source" per se. Not sure what it even is, but it is very interesting. I am glad you found it. I do not read Chinese so I have to trust the English Translation.

I didn't say that it was a primary source. I am not yet asserting that my position is backed up by mythology. You are. So where is it? Quote a translation of an ancient chinese source stating that Suwa carried a compass.

[CASteinman]

Well darned. The story with the "Scissors" led me to try a search with these characters... "女媧" 榘 which according to that website are Nü Wa and Ju (supposedly "scissors")

Unfortunately.. when I do that search I cannot find any links that include both terms as far as I can tell. I tried to double up the term 榘 榘 to increase the emphasis on JU and that came up with really off the mark (worthless) results.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%A5%B3%E5%AA%A7+%E6%A6%98&aq=f&oq=%E5%A5%B3%E5%AA%A7+%E6%A6%98&aqs=chrome.0.57j62.7855j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&safe=active&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22%E5%A5%B3%E5%AA%A7%22+%E6%A6%98+&oq=%22%E5%A5%B3%E5%AA%A7%22+%E6%A6%98+&gs_l=serp.3...23357.23357.3.24045.1.0.1.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.1.8.serp._fKCd-s6lGE&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44770516,d.aWM&fp=5787db19492ea5ed&biw=1024&bih=567

[mathonihah]

Fallacy: Bandwagon appeal.

The British Museum of Art is not a questionable source.

Agian... you need to produce photos of originals, not artists reproductions. How long must I wait?

They are originals, according to the sources from which they are quoted. If you think that they are not, it is up to you to prove that they are not, or that the sources are making untruthful claims.

[CASteinman]

He probably means a compass, but doesn't know how to say it in English.

Maybe. I took the character he used and translated as "scissors" and searched for it in google. This character: 榘

I found it in a Chinese Dictionary which Google Translated for me. You can read the whole page. in the link but.. here is the weird thing. The word translates to "square". Something is very wrong here.

====

http://translate.goo...ved=0CDsQ7gEwAA

Translated bit: Ju --carpenter's square, ruler, rule

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

I now took the other word in that fellows text (rulers (gui 規)) and searched for that in google.

It seems to be a more complex word in Chinese -- with the core meaning being something like "Regulations" -- things that regulate. The word might even have a very close relationship to our word "gauge" for something that regulates with a measurement.

But it has offshoots that mean (just as the fellow says above) "rulers". However these rulers appear to be especially associated with cartography..

From my searches -- where I was originally trying to find lots of instances of Nuwa with JU (scissors) - to confirm what Mike was saying -- instead what I think I have found is that Ju refers to the "Square" (which was mistranslated as Scissors) and that gua refers to measuring calipers -- similar to a compass.

I am no Chinese expert.. this is all amateur work -- but see if you do not agree:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E8%A6%8F&aq=f&oq=%E8%A6%8F&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3j62l2.1724j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Mike Reed]

They are originals, according to the sources from which they are quoted. If you think that they are not, it is up to you to prove that they are not, or that the sources are making untruthful claims.

Quoted images? Huh? Where have the images you've referenced (to show that they actually resembled the following) been identified as originals? CFR

[Mike Reed]

Again... I have asked you folks to quote translations ancient chinese mythology, asserting that she carried a compass. CFR

[bcuzbcuz]

Wait a minute. At what point does relating the poorly copied figures, holding a compass (that looks like scissors) and square of a Chinese creation MYTH, where two serpent (snake/dragon) tailed beings who are brother and sister, yet married, suddenly become a defense for the symbols of Mormon temple ceremonies? Can we take a step back and get a grip?

Where not these Masonic symbols meant to measure the "squareness of the earth" and the "roundness of the heavens"? What squareness of the earth would that be referring to exactly? Is that like the "four corners of the earth"? Do we live on a square earth and I missed something in my geography classes?

Where, anywhere, in Mormondom, is it stated that Chinese creation MYTHs are linked to Masonic secret symbols?

Is not this whole argument of Chinese myth, compass and square, merely clutching at straws?

[mathonihah]

Quoted images? Huh? Where have the images you've referenced (to show that they actually resembled the following) been identified as originals? CFR

Huh. Of course that is original image. It is an original Olfa Compass Cutter image.

[Mike Reed]

Huh. Of course that is original image. It is an original Olfa Compass Cutter image.

You know what I mean. You need to provide photos of the "veils" (so called by MM) or other ancient works of art, where Nuwa is holding an instument that resembles the Olfa Compass Cutter. You also need to quote translated primary source ancient mythology stating that Nuwa held a compass.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mathonihah]

You know what I mean.

I don't. I don't think that you know what you mean.

You need to provide photos of the "veils" (so called by MM) or other ancient works of art, where Nuwa is holding an instument that resembles the Olfa Compass Cutter. You also need to quote translated primary source ancient mythology stating that Nuwa held a compass.

How about this one:

http://books.google....compass&f=false

It came from clicking on one of the Google Books search results I had linked to earlier. Hint: Study the evidence carefully before hitting the keyboard.

[bcuzbcuz]

I don't. I don't think that you know what you mean.

How about this one:

http://books.google....compass&f=false

It came from clicking on one of the Google Books search results I had linked to earlier. Hint: Study the evidence carefully before hitting the keyboard.

Your link lead to a page that no longer exists. Maybe you need to do a little more than just a Google search.

[Mike Reed]

I don't. I don't think that you know what you mean.

Oh brother... You cited the following three examples, claiming that they resembled the Olfa Compass Cutter.

Here is another:

This looks more like a traditional compass than a scissors:

These images you site are merely modern artistic reproductions.

How about this one:

http://books.google....compass&f=false

It came from clicking on one of the Google Books search results I had linked to earlier.

Where is the Olfa Compass Cutter-like tool in Nuwa's hands? This image is difficult to make out. Looks to me like we instead have the tool depicted in a V shape. So again... where are ancient examples resembling the ones you cite above. Where also are the quotes from Mythology that allegedly exist, stating that Nowa carried a compass?

Hint: Study the evidence carefully before hitting the keyboard.

The irony!

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[volgadon]

Your link lead to a page that no longer exists. Maybe you need to do a little more than just a Google search.

Refresh the page, it'll display.

[volgadon]

Nuwa cut off the legs of the tortoise to use as the four pillars of the earth. That could explain why scissors.

[mathonihah]

I now took the other word in that fellows text (rulers (gui 規)) and searched for that in google.

It seems to be a more complex word in Chinese -- with the core meaning being something like "Regulations" -- things that regulate. The word might even have a very close relationship to our word "gauge" for something that regulates with a measurement.

But it has offshoots that mean (just as the fellow says above) "rulers". However these rulers appear to be especially associated with cartography..

From my searches -- where I was originally trying to find lots of instances of Nuwa with JU (scissors) - to confirm what Mike was saying -- instead what I think I have found is that Ju refers to the "Square" (which was mistranslated as Scissors) and that gua refers to measuring calipers -- similar to a compass.

I am no Chinese expert.. this is all amateur work -- but see if you do not agree:

https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8

Sounds good to me. I would say the site that Mike had obtained his information from appears to be a very amateurish site.

[mathonihah]

Where is the Olfa Compass Cutter-like tool in Nuwa's hands? This image is difficult to make out. Looks to me like we instead have the tool depicted in a V shape. So again... where are ancient examples resembling the ones you cite above. Where also are the quotes from Mythology that allegedly exist, stating that Nowa carried a compass?

Whether it is Olfa or V shaped, the source is original, authentic, archaeological artefact; translated as compass and not scissors.

[CASteinman]

Wait a minute. At what point does relating the poorly copied figures, holding a compass (that looks like scissors) and square of a Chinese creation MYTH, where two serpent (snake/dragon) tailed beings who are brother and sister, yet married, suddenly become a defense for the symbols of Mormon temple ceremonies? Can we take a step back and get a grip?

Where not these Masonic symbols meant to measure the "squareness of the earth" and the "roundness of the heavens"? What squareness of the earth would that be referring to exactly? Is that like the "four corners of the earth"? Do we live on a square earth and I missed something in my geography classes?

Where, anywhere, in Mormondom, is it stated that Chinese creation MYTHs are linked to Masonic secret symbols?

Is not this whole argument of Chinese myth, compass and square, merely clutching at straws?

I was originally going to say "Maybe for some. Maybe not" But after reading what you wrote I am more inclined to say "No". Because I never actually looked up what the Masons say the compass and square were for, but in searching around the web for this stuff on regarding the Chinese, I have seen several times where that was the reason they are holding these tools.

So maybe there is a connection.

[Mike Reed]

Whether it is Olfa or V shaped, the source is original, authentic, archaeological artefact; translated as compass and not scissors.

Sigh... you cliamed that Nowa carried a compass that was in the shap of the Olfa cutter compass. But you can only support such drivel from modern reproductions... which really isn't suitable evidence. Not in the slightest. So you've come up with this image, but it does nothing to support your original argument.

Now you are claiming that you've provided a "translation" that indicates that Nuwa carried a compas. Where is the translation? I see that there is an interpretation of the art, stating that it was a compass, but no translation of mythology, as MM, Wade, CAS, and you have claimed exists. Again... provide a translation of ancient mythology, stating that Nuwa carried a compass.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

I am not wanting to distract this but I have just read something that I find really interesting. I was doing a search for the Chinese legend and I found this page:

http://translate.goo...ved=0CDQQ7gEwAA

Now.. for a moment, stop looking at the this as any sort of debate or any sort of *** for tat or anything else.

The translations for the two images is, to me, very interesting. I will repeat it here:

Legend has it that Eve and Adam was exiled to a suitable environment. "Eden" in order to remember their past homes, Eve and Adam to the new homes, also known as the Eden (English to Eden), where it is located, has always been a mystery.

Adam and Eve: Fuxi and Nuwa Figure

Legend has it that Eve and Adam was exiled to a suitable environment. "Eden" in order to remember their past homes, Eve and Adam to the new homes, also known as the Eden (English to Eden), where it is located, has always been a mystery.

Caption: This diagram is collected in Xinjiang Turpan. Fuxi and Nuwa, respectively, were men and women image sideways relative to each Young cite single-handedly, execution moment Fuxi, Nuwa executive regulations the other hand, the hold of the other waist and lower body as serpentine cross around. Painted date of the upper part of the screen, in the three-legged bird, lower part painted month, in the rabbit, laurel, toads. The full scale of large and small dots represent Sky constellation. Fuxi and Nuwa Chinese mythology human ancestor. Legend Fuxi and Nuwa as brother and sister, pregnant and human. This painting the line drawing melancholy soothing, pure color and harmony. The sun and the moon the stars of the arrangement, the open sense of both space and lofty, and display the lofty mean that as a human ancestor Fuxi and Nuwa.

OK.. here is what I find interesting about this. This tale -- which is possibly related to Adam and Eve -- has one of them holding something that has a literal machine Translation of "Execution Moment". And the other has the meaning "Executive Regulations".

I will not comment but I just find that very intriguing.

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Now back to the issue at hand. In that last link I put up... There is a description that is found next to the picture. The description says :"1960, Astana in Turpan in Xinjiang in the tombs of the Tang Dynasty tombs unearthed the two thirty ancient Fuxi and Nuwa Figure: picture on the right, the right hand of the Fuxi Fuxi left, Nuwa hold live Nuwa Nuwa left hand clinging to Fuxi, the two diagonally pupil affectionate sea, and the lower part of the body are serpentine and Entwined intersect. The Fuxi left hand holding a "moment" that Sruare, the Nuwa right hand holding the "rules" that compasses, background available "rules" drawn "the sun and the moon and the constellation diagram.