Freemasonry And Endowment?

[MormonMason]

I've thought this and the reason for feeling I'd been kicked in the stomach when finding out about it. Just walk around Salt Lake to see that we have Masonic symbols like the beehive, lion statues, and on the temple in places we have clasped hands, all seeing eye & a 5 pointed star and other things I won't say but am a walking example of. Luckily upon finding out it wasn't Satanic from the beginning and that Satanists adopted it, it was better. I feel that when Joseph spoke about ladders he may have been referring to the Jacob's Ladder concept with the Sun, Moon & Stars etc. Joseph integrated some Freemasonry into our religion because he saw it as a religious entity, IMHO.

It might surprise you to learn that a great many of the symbols and concepts of Freemasonry actually were borrowed by Freemasonry from other, earlier sources. There are numerous Christian connections, including those involving the numbers three and five, the all-seeing eye, etc. Even the term "Great Architect of the Universe" (and related terms, none of which are used in the LDS Temple ceremonies) has an earlier usage in the Reformers. Freemasonry was quite a bit simpler in the beginning, with only two degrees and considerably less ritual and symbols than now.

Wish I were home and had access to my books and notes as this could be a really fun discussion--provided I was not called away by more pressing matters as has happened before I can finish my thoughts.

I also am quite looking forward to Mike Reed's research as well, wringing my hands with glee at the prospect. I fear I may rub the skin from the flesh of my hands, however, before that day arrives.

[Nathair/|\]

If it came from God, why was it necessary to borrow from freemasonry?

You guys should read Inside a Magical Lodge by John Michael Greer. He explains a framework popularized by Fremasonry, but used by many fraternal and esoteric orders because it is highly effective for transmitting the kind of material contained in the endowment.

[MormonMason]

Something else that needs to be mentioned is that the square and compasses are not symbols unique to Freemasonry. They have been around as symbols long before the Fraternity of Freemasonry took its first breath. It was common to put them on a veil and/or burial shroud in Central Asia, for example.

Of interest is the fact that if you were to stand facing one of them, the marks in ones garments would be on the same sides (right and left) as those in the ancient artwork.

[ERayR]

However, I think the similarities of Mormon theology with early masonic thought in the Elus-Cohen/Martinist degrees will either show a common ancient source of similarities between Mormonism and the ancient mysteries, or some non-Mormons may argue that early LDS leaders had access to some of the higher level degrees. For instance, Emmanuel Swedenborg believed in the idea of 3 heavens, and the teachings of St. Martin have some similarities as well.

Of course there were a common ancient source. The revelations by God has not been limited to the latter days.

[livy111us]

Something else that needs to be mentioned is that the square and compasses are not symbols unique to Freemasonry. They have been around as symbols long before the Fraternity of Freemasonry took its first breath. It was common to put them on a veil and/or burial shroud in Central Asia, for example.

Of interest is the fact that if you were to stand facing one of them, the marks in ones garments would be on the same sides (right and left) as those in the ancient artwork.

Matthew Brown discusses this topic in his Expound Symposium a few years back. The compass, square and other measuring devices were quite common in ancient times.

[MormonMason]

Matthew Brown discusses this topic in his Expound Symposium a few years back. The compass, square and other measuring devices were quite common in ancient times.

...

It is true that these implements were in use for many years. They also had religious significance, as is evidenced by 7th century, Central Asian artifacts like the following:

In the above, these are the working tools of creation and also of morality. They were used to build and keep in due bounds the creation as well as the passions. They were symbolic of "the way things should be." In this light, it also is of interest to mention that a piece of early Christian artwork I once saw had a couple of Christians facing each other. One of them had opened part of his robe and was revealing a "gamma" under his clothing to the other. For those unfamiliar with what a "gamma" is, it looks like the figure in the hand on the right of the above image.

[Stone holm]

I agree with this. When you look into the past mysteries that led to the formation of masonry, many of them were using these symbols long before masonry was formed. The beehive, for example, can be looked at as a symbol of industry, but has long been a symbol of Merovingian descent. Either meaning can be acceptable in this context, such as Nibley thinking that the honey bee symbolism in the Book of Ether was only symbolic and could refer to a dynasty.

However, I think the similarities of Mormon theology with early masonic thought in the Elus-Cohen/Martinist degrees will either show a common ancient source of similarities between Mormonism and the ancient mysteries, or some non-Mormons may argue that early LDS leaders had access to some of the higher level degrees. For instance, Emmanuel Swedenborg believed in the idea of 3 heavens, and the teachings of St. Martin have some similarities as well.

I watched a video on Youtube of Sandra Tanner talking about the temple, saying that Joseph Smith could not have restored anything from masonry because masonry was founded in the 1700s and didn't really go back to the Old Testament time period. She seemed to emphasize that he copied things that pertained to the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood that were fabricated in the 1700s and couldn't possibly be things Jesus Christ would want practiced in his temples.

The problem I see with this reasoning is that there is no evidence that these elements of blue lodge masonry did not exist before the 1700s. The Grand Lodge wasn't founded until 1717, but that doesn't mean that people were not practicing elements of the ancient mysteries before then, that were handed down "mouth-to-ear" for thousands of years until finally being consolidated into the masonic degrees in 1717. The degrees have a ton of symbolism, as does the Temple Endowment, that can take a lifetime of contemplation to understand. I feel the same way about the architechtural symbolism and designs on the outsides of the temples.

The Spirit can use these things to teach us lessons. There is also much benefit in contemplating the different ways similar symbols are used in different traditions.

Gave this a bump. I agree the fact that there are similarities does not mean that one or both did not come from God, it should be expected that there would be traces of something this important floating around in unauthorized channels throughout time. I remember reading a book, I believe it was entitled Masonry and Mormonism which also speculated on certain Masonic appearing artifacts among the Native Americans pre-Columbian. I don't see much if any connection between the Masonic degrees beyond the Blue Lodge and the Temple. The most important of the Masonic degrees are those contained in the Blue Lodge, and those are the ones which have the similarities as to the rituals, but not the dramatizations.

[MormonMason]

For the record, there were active Masonic Lodges from at least 1590 in Scotland. Concepts that are Masonic have been found in building guilds for long ages. A manuscript dating to as far back as 1390-1410 also contains concepts that are familiar to Masons. Freemasonry goes back to before the 1717 founding of the Grand Lodge Era. But, then again, the Tanners are not the most accurate sources of information in the world, now are they?

[phaedrus ut]

It came from God. It borrowed a bit from Freemasonry.

That was my point before in saying that the Endowment is to Freemasonry as the BOM is to the KJV. So my version of your statement would be:

IF it came from god. It borrowed a bit from Freemasonry(The KJV)

[Mike Reed]

Regarding the parallels found between the endowment and 19th century masonry: True or false, the further back one goes in tracing these parallels into antiquity, the more scattered they get? If true, how do you explain that?

[Bill Hamblin]

Regarding the parallels found between the endowment and 19th century masonry: True or false, the further back one goes in tracing these parallels into antiquity, the more scattered they get? If true, how do you explain that?

The further back one goes in time the more fragmented and scattered ALL sources become on everything.

[MormonMason]

Regarding the parallels found between the endowment and 19th century masonry: True or false, the further back one goes in tracing these parallels into antiquity, the more scattered they get? If true, how do you explain that?

Given years of experience in such matters with ancient texts and traditions, what Bill Hamblin said. The further back one goes the more scattered. Go back even further and ideas tend to disappear, not because they did not exist but because more and more sources containing the ideas are lost to time.

[MormonMason]

It also needs to be stated at the outset that points of fellowship, ritual stances, handclasps, and giving of signs are far more ancient than Grand Lodge Era Freemasonry. I have seen some of these in Early Christian and Gnostic Christian artwork and texts, as well as in medieval stuff that itself is based upon stuff much older. A number of Royal Arch, Order of the Red Cross, and certain Scottish Rite traditions come directly from various ancient texts and traditions, such as Josephus as well as from the Apocrypha.

[Mike Reed]

Of interest is the fact that if you were to stand facing one of them, the marks in ones garments would be on the same sides (right and left) as those in the ancient artwork.

But if you were the enshrouded corpse (who actually *wore* it), then they would be on opposite sides. Outside making it more closely correspond to the pattern of the garment, why do you prefer the perspective of the living visitor facing the shroud? Do you have a reason? You said that these symbols were commonly found on shrouds in Asia. Which have the compass and square on these same sides. Is there a pattern of them being found on the same sides? If not, why have you cherry picked this one example? Could it be that you are fitting the evidence to your biases?

Edited April 4, 2013 by Mike Reed

[MormonMason]

But if you were the enshrouded corpse (who actually *wore* it), then they would be on opposite sides. Outside making it more closely correspond to the pattern of the garment, why do you prefer the perspective of the living visitor facing the shroud? Do you have a reason? You said that these symbols were commonly found on shrouds in Asia. Which have the compass and square on these same sides. Is there a pattern of them being found on the same sides? If not, why have you cherry picked this one example? Could it be that you are fitting the evidence to your biases?

They also hung them on the walls of sacred tombs, where they often would face any potential visitors when said person entered. Some of these tombs had both one on corpse and one hanging on the wall. Most just have the wall hanging. All of them that I have seen in both the literature and elsewhere have the square and compasses on the same sides. Some vary as to points up or points down for the compasses but all I have ever seen (and I have seen many) have them on the same sides. The one I would have preferred to use has the Big Dipper on it but it cannot be found on the internet and I do not have the rights or permissions to reproduce it here. I have cherry-picked nothing but you sure would hope that I would have. I even understand why you would ask this.

[MormonMason]

Here are a few more for fun:

Following is one used for burial, displayed flat and in a case. Notice the switched emblems?

I wish I could display the one I have. It is the most beautiful and best preserved one I have ever seen, done in beautiful shades of green around the figures, with a clearly drawn Big Dipper on the middle of the side with the Square. (You will recall that the Big Dipper appears on the side of the Salt Lake Temple and also on the aprons of later Scottish Rite Masonic rituals postdating Joseph Smith). But, I do not have permission to post it or to reproduce it. Wish I could.

[mfbukowski]

Point being, I think some are too quick to assume that certain symbols are masonic without realizing that these same symbols pre-date masonry by centuries or even millennia. The debate is not why Joseph Smith borrowed from masonry, but rather, is he pulling from masonry or from a more ancient source? Was he pulling from the same source as masonry was pulling from? I am compelled by the evidence to believe in the latter.

Because of this it is important to distinguish the elements of Masonry from Masonry itself. Many elements common to both appear in the endowment, but that doesn't mean that the endowment "is" Masonic in its core nature.

But Mike Reed has done research on Christianization movements within Masonry right in Western New York- and indeed these must have been influential to Joseph.

[mfbukowski]

Something else that needs to be mentioned is that the square and compasses are not symbols unique to Freemasonry. They have been around as symbols long before the Fraternity of Freemasonry took its first breath. It was common to put them on a veil and/or burial shroud in Central Asia, for example.

Of interest is the fact that if you were to stand facing one of them, the marks in ones garments would be on the same sides (right and left) as those in the ancient artwork.

Can you provide a reference? Fascinating stuff!!

[mfbukowski]

Regarding the parallels found between the endowment and 19th century masonry: True or false, the further back one goes in tracing these parallels into antiquity, the more scattered they get? If true, how do you explain that?

Hi Mike- good to see you!

In regard to your point, what do you think of this, from the fourth century- Cyril of Jerusalem.

You were anointed on your brow and your other sense-organs, and so while the body is anointed in outward appearance with myrrh, the soul (psyche) is sanctified by the life-bestowing Holy Spirit. First of all you were anointed on the brow (metopon, forehead and eyes, lit. “space between the eyes”) to free you from the shame which completely involved the First Man when he fell, and that you might clearly perceive (or reflect, katoptrizisthe), the glory of the Lord with wide-open mind (lit. with uncovered face). Then your ears that you might receive the hearing ears of the mysteries of God…. Next come the nostrils, that upon receiving the holy ordinance you may say: “We are the sweet odor of Christ to God among the saved.” After that (you were anointed) on the breast (tastethe, “the seat of feeling, passion and thought,” Liddell and Scott), that, clothed with the breastplate of righteousness, you may stand against the wiles of the Devil—(countering his evil thoughts with good ones).

http://washings-anointings.blogspot.com/

Accounting for translation and cultural differences, the sense of the words is nearly word-perfect in all four annointings mentioned- four for four.

[mfbukowski]

But if you were the enshrouded corpse (who actually *wore* it), then they would be on opposite sides. Outside making it more closely correspond to the pattern of the garment, why do you prefer the perspective of the living visitor facing the shroud? Do you have a reason? You said that these symbols were commonly found on shrouds in Asia. Which have the compass and square on these same sides. Is there a pattern of them being found on the same sides? If not, why have you cherry picked this one example? Could it be that you are fitting the evidence to your biases?

I have no dog in this fight, but if one sees it as a veil, it would be a mirror image of the body if placed face down.

Edit- Ha- Indeed MormonMason has already shown this!

Edited April 4, 2013 by mfbukowski

[MormonMason]

Can you provide a reference? Fascinating stuff!!

Aside from the photos of a number of the items I posted above? I am not at home with my books, papers or notes. Let me see what I can come up with in the meantime, though....

ETA: As an aside, I also have a photo of an inscription showing two soldiers with swords in ritual embrace with the hands of an angel blessing them or bringing them together. It is from medieval times, predates speculative Freemasonry, and it looks an awful lot like the five points of fellowship. Unfortunately, I do not have permission to post it. I wish I did. I think you would find this photo fascinating as well.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

Something else of interest I thought I would share is that a 1917 work (Silberer's Problems of mysticism and its symbolism) discussing a relationship between Freemasonry, Rosicrucian thought, and Hermeticism, spoke of an illustration that appeared in a 1660 edition of Basilius Valentinus' Twelve Keys of Philosophy, contains something of relevance to Freemasonry. This year predates Grand Lodge Freemasonry by over 50 years. Here is the illustration discussed in the relevant passages of text:

It is similar in a couple of places to the imagery of the Astana tomb finds mentioned above. The female and male heads are reversed but notice that the Rebis figure also is holding in its hands the square and compasses, on the same facing sides as in the Astana symbolism. Rebis symbols of various sorts figure prominently in Alchemical and Hermetic artwork.

This same image has shown up in a number of works at various times and places, including in Albert Pike's 1871 book, Morals and Dogma, the information and illustrations of which he drew from many sources--some of which sources still are unknown to modern researchers.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MormonMason

[Mike Reed]

They also hung them on the walls of sacred tombs, where they often would face any potential visitors when said person entered. Some of these tombs had both one on corpse and one hanging on the wall. Most just have the wall hanging. All of them that I have seen in both the literature and elsewhere have the square and compasses on the same sides. Some vary as to points up or points down for the compasses but all I have ever seen (and I have seen many) have them on the same sides. The one I would have preferred to use has the Big Dipper on it but it cannot be found on the internet and I do not have the rights or permissions to reproduce it here. I have cherry-picked nothing but you sure would hope that I would have. I even understand why you would ask this.

Thanks for these several examples. I see that you haven't cherry picked them. But I am curious as to why you are now identifying this with the veil. A wall hanging doesn't function as a veil. Do you have a source saying that they were used as veils? Thx in advance.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Following is one used for burial, displayed flat and in a case. Notice the switched emblems?

Were the other ones *not* used for burial?

[mfbukowski]

Aside from the photos of a number of the items I posted above? I am not at home with my books, papers or notes. Let me see what I can come up with in the meantime, though....

ETA: As an aside, I also have a photo of an inscription showing two soldiers with swords in ritual embrace with the hands of an angel blessing them or bringing them together. It is from medieval times, predates speculative Freemasonry, and it looks an awful lot like the five points of fellowship. Unfortunately, I do not have permission to post it. I wish I did. I think you would find this photo fascinating as well.

No- those photos you posted were great and made the point well I think- I posted that request before seeing the photos. Thanks- great stuff!