Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Mike Reed]

What is that supposed to mean?

just that it does not resemble the ^ compass. Doesn't really resemble the tools in the depictions cited in the ancient art work displayed here. That's all. Good job.

Edit: Noticed that you added the other pics to your post. Are these ancient drawings? It sure doesn't look like it to me.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Deleted

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

Me: Of course you couldnt, this doesn't change ur thesis, right?

And I notice you are guilty of the same crime. But at least you are higher in scholarship than others -- so for you its OK.

[CASteinman]

Although a compass may be found elsewhere. But not here.

Your imagination is not the same thing as truth.

[mathonihah]

The depictions of the alternative style of compasses make the images more authentic to me. They imply that the depictions did not originate from a Western cultural traditions, but are indegenous to a very different culture and tradition. It reminds me of what is written in the Book of Mormon:

“Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

“And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. (2 Nephi 29:8–9)

[bcuzbcuz]

Sorry to put an umbrella up to block your rain, but would you be so kind as to explain the sense of depicting scissors along with a square in the posted ancient Chinese art--particularly in relation to the other symbols in the artwork?

Here is an explanation for the compass and square: Nüwa and Fuxi in Chinese Mythology: Compass & Square (Nuwa is a creator goddess and Fu Xi is her brother, and as I understand it, the two are the Chinese equivalent of Adam and Eve). See also, Circle and Square: Explorations in Symbology

Here is an interesting article; Use of Masonic Symbols in Early Chinese Literature (there are multiple quotes from antiquity where the compass and square are mentioned together).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Why scissors??.

Why not?

Just because you have authors who use their reference points to define the objects depicted as compass, doesn't mean that their interpretation is correct. Since the objects vary from picture to picture, I have no doubt someone will come up with suitable definition of some other tool.

But if you're looking for a definition that fits your own specific theory, go for it.

[CASteinman]

Why not?

Wouldn't the retelling of the myths (with compass) be a good reason why not?

[bcuzbcuz]

The depictions of the alternative style of compasses make the images more authentic to me. They imply that the depictions did not originate from a Western cultural traditions, but are indegenous to a very different culture and tradition. It reminds me of what is written in the Book of Mormon:

“Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

“And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. (2 Nephi 29:8–9)

You obviously "want" the depiction to represent a compass (caliper)(drafting compass)(dividers) and your "wanting" it to be so, blocks your ability to interpret it as anything else. People see what they want to see.

[bcuzbcuz]

Wouldn't the retelling of the myths (with compass) be a good reason why not?

I can think of many re-tellings of myths where scissors would fit nicely. "Cutting your patterns of behavior from the 'fabric of life'". "Once you 'weave' a tale, you need to 'cut' it to size". Although the Egyptian Goddess of weaving, Neith, is usually holding a loom's shuttle, she could also be holding scissors. Atropos, (Greek mythology) at death "shears" the thread of life.

Try playing "paper, rock, scissors" with "paper, rock, compass". Just doesn't work.

Or how about the old parental warning to "never run with scissors"? Do we have to change that to "You can walk, but you must measure your steps with your compass"?? Looses something in the translation.

I mean, anyway, "cut me some slack!"

[CASteinman]

I can think of many re-tellings of myths where scissors would fit nicely. "Cutting your patterns of behavior from the 'fabric of life'". "Once you 'weave' a tale, you need to 'cut' it to size". Although the Egyptian Goddess of weaving, Neith, is usually holding a loom's shuttle, she could also be holding scissors. Atropos, (Greek mythology) at death "shears" the thread of life.

Try playing "paper, rock, scissors" with "paper, rock, compass". Just doesn't work.

Or how about the old parental warning to "never run with scissors"? Do we have to change that to "You can walk, but you must measure your steps with your compass"?? Looses something in the translation.

I mean, anyway, "cut me some slack!"

I am talking about the actual myths that the images are based on. While the image may confuse us in the way it looks, wouldn't the actual mythology get it right?

Because these images are based upon some sort of well known creation myth as I understand it.

Edited April 6, 2013 by CASteinman

[wenglund]

"In his left hand, Fuxi holds a scissor, and Nuwa holds a ruler in her right hand. In the middle of the top of the painting is the sun and the moon is in the middle below. Nuwa holds a ruler symbolizing Heaven, while Fuxi holds a scissor symbolizing Earth. Fuxi and Nuwa are the mythical ancestors of humans. According to legend, humans came into being through Fuxi and Nuwa, a combination of brother and sister."

http://masterpieces....07-a505273629bc

Could you please explain to me in what way scissors are representative of the earth, or show me in ancient Chinese literature where scissors represent the earth and a ruler represents the heavens? I have already pointed out how the compass and square (circle and square) factor into ancient Chinese cosmology.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Why scissors??.

Why not?

You are the one claiming they are scissors. The burden rests with you to explain the alleged existence of scissors in the given CONTEXT. Posting pictures of ancient scissors, and showing the similarity in shape to items in some of the veils, merely evinces that they may be scissors. It doesn't demnstrate that they are, nor does it explain why scissors would be depicted in a creation scene (hopefully you won't decrediblize yourself by repeating Mikes absurd comment about silk).

Just because you have authors who use their reference points to define the objects depicted as compass, doesn't mean that their interpretation is correct. Since the objects vary from picture to picture, I have no doubt someone will come up with suitable definition of some other tool.

You evidently missed a very key point--i.e. CONTEXT (capitalized for your benefit). In the CONTEXT, the compass fits with the square, and both fit the creation scene (as I demonstrated earlier). Scissor don't fit with a square or a creation scene. Is this starting to register yet?

But if you're looking for a definition that fits your own specific theory, go for it.

Unlike you and Mike, I am letting the CONTEXTUAL evidence govern "my theory" (actually, I can't take any credit for it since I only learned of it from MM in this thread and went about testing the proposition through research on the net). And, while I am open to the visual similarities to ancient scissors, I have learned from sad experience that visual similarities in ancient artwork isn't sufficient evidence upon which to rest a proposition. You and Mike and the British Museum employee are free to think otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

Could you please explain to me in what way scissors are representative of the earth, or show me in ancient Chinese literature where scissors represent the earth and a ruler represents the heavens?

I have been wondering this as well. The myths given by MM make sense in a mythological logic, I don't remember any myths about creation using scissors....knives, yes; scissors, no. And I've read a lot of creation myths over the decades though certainly not all of them. Edited April 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

I have been wondering this as well. The myths given by MM make sense in a mythological logic, I don't remember any myths about creation using scissors....knives, yes; scissors, no. And I've read a lot of creation myths over the decades though certainly not all of them.

Well actually aren't we moving more towards the handheld Urim and Thummins...what are they called now iPads or something?

[Mike Reed]

Some of the images definitely appear to show a compass, but this kind of compass:

not the traditional looking compass. Here is one example:

Here is another:

This looks more like a traditional compass than a scissors:

And here are loads of modern images of that type of compass.

Just noticed that you posted these. Very interesting. Are these drawings ancient? It sure doesn't look like it.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mathonihah]

Just noticed that you posted these. Very interesting. Are these drawings ancient? It sure doesn't look like it.

Are the others ancient? And how old do they have to be to be ancient? I have no idea; but you can find out more about them by following their URLs, because they are linked directly to their respective websites.

[Mike Reed]

I don't think that sketches published in 20th century books should be used to support your thesis. Do you?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[wenglund]

I don't think that sketches published in 20th century books should be used to support your thesis. Do you?

Early modern depictions of ancient myths aren't useful?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CASteinman]

I don't think that sketches published in 20th century books should be used to support your thesis. Do you?

I don't know about all of them but one or two look to me like stone wall rubbings.

[mathonihah]

I don't think that sketches published in 20th century books should be used to support your thesis. Do you?

How do you know how old the other images are which you are using? I found them by doing a Google *image* search for “Fu Xi and Nu Wa”. Here is the search URL:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=T_ZgUYo74aPRBa7dgNgH&q=Fu+Xi+and+Nu+Wa&oq=Fu+Xi+and+Nu+Wa&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.12..0i24.21143.24711.0.27546.1.1.0.0.0.0.251.251.2-1.1.0...0.0...1c.2.8.mobile-gws-serp.qguEJVHjBAg#

Many more like images can be found, including the other style of images. There is no reason to assume that one is more ancient than another. How do you know that my images are not more ancient than yours? Anyways, you can find out more about the respective images by following their URLs. Good luck with your search.

[Mike Reed]

Early modern depictions of ancient myths aren't useful?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sigh... First of all... early modern is not the period of the 20th century. As for the modern period... no. Of course not, silly. Why should early modern or modern reinterpretation/reinvention of tradition have any bearing upon ancient material culture?

Really? Are you really asking these question? So ridiculous.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

I don't know about all of them but one or two look to me like stone wall rubbings.

Yeah? Which ones? And can we find any validation of such "rubbings" found in ancient material culture?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mfbukowski]

They look more like woodcuts or some kind of block prints to me. The images have clean edges where rubbings don't

Edited April 7, 2013 by mfbukowski

[CASteinman]

Sigh... First of all... early modern is not the period of the 20th century. As for the modern period... no. Of course not, silly. Why should early modern or modern reinterpretation/reinvention of tradition have any bearing upon ancient material culture?

Really? Are you really asking these question? So ridiculous.

Look Mike you think you are on to something. Write it up. get it peer reviewed Lets see how it passes that test. Its pretty silly for you to stand around and say "Look I am so wonderful and noticed things no one else saw before -- prove me wrong everyone or be called ridiculous" -- and no one here is an expert in this subject.

Write up your idea and get it peer reviewed.

Until you do that though, seriously you have almost no credibility. Because other people who ARE experts have identified this as a Compass. It does not matter how much you wish that were not true, that is how it is. Experts are currently not in agreement with you.

So you need to get some credibility.

Or would you seriously advocate that in the interest of objective honesty people should just believe the first odd random theory that comes along from a non-expert?

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[Mike Reed]

How do you know how old the other images are which you are using?

I don't.... the images I have responded to weren't "used" by me. They were "used" by other posters, and I just resopnded to them... conceeding that they might be authentic. The one photo that I have personally referenced in this thread is validated by the Brittish Museum of Art, in case you forgot. Seems pretty legit to me.

I found them by doing a Google *image* search for “Fu Xi and Nu Wa”. Here is the search URL:

http://www.google.co...rp.qguEJVHjBAg#

Your link isn't the slightest bit helpful. Again... are these ancient drawings?

Many more like images can be found, including the other style of images. There is no reason to assume that one is more ancient than another. How do you know that my images are not more ancient than yours?

Just a hunch. You have the museum giving the date for the one I cited. What date do you have?

Anyways, you can find out more about the respective images by following their URLs. Good luck with your search.

No I can't. They don't give dates for these images.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed