Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Calm]

they do indeed... I have a life too, BTW... Working on my doctorate in fact... But there is a pattern here..... He backs out at the most convenient times. will he suddenly step up and validate all of the loose ends listed above? No... He won't... And people will forget his failure.... And move on to the next topic, as though he is an authority, because his avatar is Mormon mason.

If I got upset when MM said it's in his books at home, I might have to get upset when someone says "you'll have to wait until I publish my paper" or "I can't find an English version" or "it's not online".

[Mike Reed]

If I got upset when MM said it's in his books at home, I might have to get upset when someone says "you'll have to wait until I publish my paper" or "I can't find an English version" or "it's not online".

Except I have published. And have published authoritatively. And will again... It is possible that I may be bluffing... but I think I have established a track record to show that this will not be the case. Edited April 8, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Calm]

Except I have published. And have published authoritatively. And will again... It is possible that I may be bluffing... but I think I have established a track record to show that this will not be the case.

I didn't say it was you....*****

There are lots of valid reasons imo that people can't provide immediately sources that would be very nice to have. I would prefer for them to offer what information they have with the condition they don't have the resources currently to provide as then I can consider what they have to say even while taking into account there is no documentation provided, if people didn't mention anything they didn't have documentation to back up their comments, conversation would be a lot less enjoyable in my view.

I believe that Mormonmason has provided extensive documentation in the past and present for his claims, though not for all of them. I think he has established a track record as well enough so to trust that he has material at home that is not available to him now. Doesn't mean I have to accept his interpretation of these resources anymore than if he presents the documentation and I disagreed with what his interpretation was of the material in front of me.

I can understand him repeating his frustration at not being able to have all of his sources at hand. I have had to have my books boxed up for about a year due to some renovation and I have gotten quite frustrated when I haven't been able to simply walk up to a shelf to get what I want. When one is used to having resources available, it is very annoying not to have them and my family is quite tired, I am sure, of having me complain about those as well as the books I lost in the move... .

Of course, if this was a discussion that meant to actually prove something rather than just explore ideas, I would call for more rigour, but I don't see the purpose of the board to be the same as an academic presentation and so I'll judge the comments accordingly.

*****When Mormonmason gets home, perhaps if it bothers you that much you should start a thread asking him to provide the resources he referred to in the past but was not able to get to. I probably should start a list of ones I am interested in hearing him expand upon once he has the opportunity again.

Edited April 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

The author provides a modern sketch, not a photo. I want evidence. I want a photo of ancient art that this is allegedly based on, showing Nuwa carring what appears to be a Olfa shaped compass. Comprende?

I also want you to quote ancient mythology stating that Nuwa carried a compass, as you, wade, cas, and MM have claimed.

Out of interest, how ancient do you want? I don't particularly have a 'side' in this debate. I think the Fuxi/Nuwa is an interesting creation myth.

There are, if I've viewed them right, two versions of the image that repeat itself. One (I presume Fuxi) always has a square. Nuwa always has either a V item (scissors of compass) or a t shaped item (some suggest an Olfa compass).

You'd asked for ancient images showing an Olfa compass.

Here is an original stone rubbing of a stone carving from 2000 years ago. I'm not sure if that is 'ancient' or not. But it's certainly not modern:

http://ids.lib.harvard.edu/ids/view/4333456?height=250&width=250 (for some reason I can't get the image to show in my post). Please follow the link.

Here is the source notes from Harvard University (you can click on the image and zoom in on Fuxi and Nuwa):

http://vc.lib.harvard.edu/vc/deliver/~rubbings/olvwork297763

Name/Creator

Wu Liang, 78-151, China, China,

Warner, Langdon, 1881-1955, United States, United States,

Wu Liang made the original carving, Langdon Warner made the rubbing of the carving.

Rubbing from pictorial relief carving of 3 registers depicting in bottom register: mythical animals and legendary figures (some winged figures and some feathered figures, such as Fu Xi and Nu Wa); in the middle and the upper registers are historical stories and legendary figures; from the shrine of Wu shi at the Wu Family Shrines, Jiaxiang, Shandong from 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty (147).

Citation/References: Chavanne, E. Mission archaeologique dans la chine septentrionale ; pl. 164. / Zhongguo hua xiang shi quan ji, 2000, V. 1, pl. 80. / Zhonghua shu xue da ci dian, 2000, p. 345 (Wu shi ci shi shi hua xiang).

General note: Wu shi ci: Shrine of Wu Family, located north of Wuzhaishan Village, Zhifang Town, Jiaxiang County, Shandong Province, China. Wushi Shrine is one of the earliest examples of the offering shrines erected at the Wu family graves. The monuments were erected in the middle of 2nd century AD, buried due to Yellow River flooding, and were not fully discovered until 1786 by Huang Yi, a Qing sholar and high official. The shrine was a free-standing, peak-roofed structure. / Stone reliefs in the Wu Family Shrines were carved on the walls of the offering shrines, more than 40 engraved wall registers of slabs (16 stabs in the front chamber- Wu Rong Shrine, 17 slabs in the left chamber and 6 slabs in the Wu Liang Shrine) ; 2 pillars and 2 stone lions also appear.

Historical: Stele Date: 4th. day of 3rd. mo. of 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty (147).

There is nothing in this that says scissors or compass. I was simply wanting to show an example of the 't' shaped object in ancient images, not in modern 'homages' to it.

I await the rest of the conversation with bated breath.

[CASteinman]

It would be great if someone who is actually very familiar with ancient Chinese mythology--both art and literature--would put in their opinion.

I'm not that guy but I am going to put up a post with a lot of stuff.

[canard78]

I'm not that guy but I am going to put up a post with a lot of stuff.

I'be written to someone who is very well read. I'll let you know what he says.

[Calm]

I'm not that guy but I am going to put up a post with a lot of stuff.

Try to document it well then.

[Calm]

I'be written to someone who is very well read. I'll let you know what he says.

I have to admit I am looking more forward to this response than to CA's.

[CASteinman]

I have to admit I am looking more forward to this response than to CA's.

Well thanks very much!

[Okrahomer]

Well thanks very much!

I, for one, am very much looking forward to your post...as well as Canard's...and I'm even looking forward to Mike Reed's response. (Fascinating discussion.)

[Calm]

Well thanks very much!

I am quite good at googling myself...however I don't have personal access to years of training and education in the field so I tend to rate one higher than the other in ultimate value to myself.

[canard78]

I am quite good at googling myself...however I don't have personal access to years of training and education in the field so I tend to rate one higher than the other in ultimate value to myself.

Googline oneself can deliver some interesting results. It turns out that people could plot a very different picture of my life if they googled me to compared to what has actually happend

[MormonMason]

To return to the subject, there is another quote I wanted to present, that was part of a book written as part of a major exihibit put on by The British Library in conjunction with the British Museum, Bodleian Library and others. The Editor of the book is Dr. Susan Whitfield. Here is the back matter blurb about her and her work:

Dr Susan Whitfield has been working on the Stein and Dunhuang materials held in the British Library and institutions worldwide for over a decade and she is the founder and director of the International Dunhuang Project. She published and lectures widely throughout Europe, America and Asia. Her book, Life along the Silk Road (John Murray and University of California Press, 2000) is used as a course book in several North American universities.

This particular book is a collaboration of world-renowned scholars of the subject matter. But, without further ado, following is a quote from said book. Discussing Stein's catalogue item Ast. ix. 2. 054, we find the following:

Cat. 294 is a funerary banner typical of those found in the Astana tombs, either hung on the wall above the body or as a coffin cover. It depicts fuxi and Nuwa, mythical forbears of of the Chinese. Fuxi is the first of five legendary emperors, believed to have lived at the start of the third millenium BC. He is credited with teaching the ancient Chinese how to hunt, fish, and domesticate animals, as well as making stringed musical instruments, calculating the calendar and the construction of the Eight Diagrams used in the Book of Changes for divination. His consort or sister (both relationships are found in Chinese texts), Nuwa is credited with preventing a great flood, directing the source of rivers, creating jade and re-erecting one of the four pillars believed to hold up the earth.

In traditional Chinese cosmology the earth was square and the heavens round and thus Fuxi holds a set square to draw the former, and Nuwa a pair of compasses to draw the circle of the earth. The sun is between them, the moon at the bottom and constellations down at both sides, including one to the right recognizable as the Great Bear.

(Dr. Susan Whitfield, The Silk Road: Trade, Travel, War and Faith [Chicago: Serindia Publications and British Library, 2004], 329; bold emphasis mine).

Stein's catalogue item Ast. ix. 2. 054 is now located in the New Delhi Museum, and is the following:

I close here for now....

ETA: While looking around I found a photo of a funerary banner almost exactly like the one in the photo I have (which I mentioned earlier above). The only difference between it and the one I post here is that the colors are different. Mine is of one with beautiful shades of green in the banner. But, since I have no permission to post it or otherwise publish it, I link up the following. But, here is the one almost exactly like the one in the photo I have (I was so excited to find this that I just had to post it now rather than waiting):

This one was found in 1960, in Turpan. Those interested can read about it and what it contains, here.

Probably just scissors in her hand, too, though, huh... (of course, if we were to believe Mike's Chinese "authority" web site he cited above, we would have to believe that the one on the right is the pair of scissors...wait, is that one pair of scissors or two, now...oh never mind).

Edited April 8, 2013 by MormonMason

[canard78]

I have to admit I am looking more forward to this response than to CA's.

I might have 'over-trailed' this. He's aware of the Fuxi/Nuwa stories but hasn't studied the compass/scissors question. He's a member so I've piqued (peaked?) his interest and he will look into it and will get back to me.

[Calm]

Googline oneself can deliver some interesting results. It turns out that people could plot a very different picture of my life if they googled me to compared to what has actually happend

Yeah, that was a bit ambiguously written....

[MormonMason]

In all of the accounts where she is mending, she uses some set of stones. (I don't get how that works, but that's the story)

She smelts the stones.

[CASteinman]

She smelts the stones.

I think she does this mending trick a few times. One of the times she does that -- she apparently is stuffing the stones into holes in the sky.

I also have read that originally the genders of Fuxi and Nuwa were not specified or identified -- and I also have read some writers taking off on this, trying to assert that Nuwa or Nu Gwa -- was Noah.

[mfbukowski]

I await the rest of the conversation with bated breath.

You had better.

Your salvation depends on whether or not there were Chinese Masons.

Or, wait a minute-- what are we discussing here again?

[mathonihah]

Out of interest, how ancient do you want? I don't particularly have a 'side' in this debate. I think the Fuxi/Nuwa is an interesting creation myth.

There are, if I've viewed them right, two versions of the image that repeat itself. One (I presume Fuxi) always has a square. Nuwa always has either a V item (scissors of compass) or a t shaped item (some suggest an Olfa compass).

You'd asked for ancient images showing an Olfa compass.

Here is an original stone rubbing of a stone carving from 2000 years ago. I'm not sure if that is 'ancient' or not. But it's certainly not modern:

http://ids.lib.harva...t=250&width=250 (for some reason I can't get the image to show in my post). Please follow the link.

Here is the source notes from Harvard University (you can click on the image and zoom in on Fuxi and Nuwa):

http://vc.lib.harvar...s/olvwork297763

Wu Liang made the original carving, Langdon Warner made the rubbing of the carving.

There is nothing in this that says scissors or compass. I was simply wanting to show an example of the 't' shaped object in ancient images, not in modern 'homages' to it.

I await the rest of the conversation with bated breath.

Thank you. That is definitely evidence for the authenticity of the existence of the t shaped (olfa) compass in the illustration of the ancient mythological figures. Here is a better quality image:

I think that 2,000 years definitely makes it "ancient".

Edited April 8, 2013 by mathonihah

[bcuzbcuz]

An interesting site especially for LDS about this

It would be interesting to see if that proves true

http://www.templestu...compass-square/

I think you mean "koochie, koochie, koo". It can be found on YouTube.

[MormonMason]

You had better.

Your salvation depends on whether or not there were Chinese Masons.

Or, wait a minute-- what are we discussing here again?

No one here said anything about Chinese Masons--at least I did not. I just called attention to the parallels in thought and to the fact that the square and compasses as emblems of morality are far older than English, Grand Lodge Era Freemasonry.

[bcuzbcuz]

You had better.

Your salvation depends on whether or not there were Chinese Masons.

Or, wait a minute-- what are we discussing here again?

Good point. I think someone has shown that since the Chinese mythical Adam and Eve are holding a compass and a square and those same compass and square can be found in Masonic rituals and there are also compass and squares in temple symbols that it is proven that........., no, wait, I'm not sure what that proves.

[bcuzbcuz]

To return to the subject, there is another quote I wanted to present, that was part of a book written as part of a major exihibit put on by The British Library in conjunction with the British Museum, Bodleian Library and others. The Editor of the book is Dr. Susan Whitfield. Here is the back matter blurb about her and her work:

This particular book is a collaboration of world-renowned scholars of the subject matter. But, without further ado, following is a quote from said book. Discussing Stein's catalogue item Ast. ix. 2. 054, we find the following:

Stein's catalogue item Ast. ix. 2. 054 is now located in the New Delhi Museum, and is the following:

I close here for now....

ETA: While looking around I found a photo of a funerary banner almost exactly like the one in the photo I have (which I mentioned earlier above). The only difference between it and the one I post here is that the colors are different. Mine is of one with beautiful shades of green in the banner. But, since I have no permission to post it or otherwise publish it, I link up the following. But, here is the one almost exactly like the one in the photo I have (I was so excited to find this that I just had to post it now rather than waiting):

This one was found in 1960, in Turpan. Those interested can read about it and what it contains, here.

Probably just scissors in her hand, too, though, huh... (of course, if we were to believe Mike's Chinese "authority" web site he cited above, we would have to believe that the one on the right is the pair of scissors...wait, is that one pair of scissors or two, now...oh never mind).

Come to think of it, the pictures look more like a boomerang and a wind catcher. Just look at the lines that obviously represent the wind behind both symbols. They are right behind the THREE legged bird.

[MormonMason]

The line in question from the original Chinese text (Huainanzi, chapter lan-ming-xun) referring to the "cutting off of the feet of the great turtle to set up the four poles" is: 斷 鼇 足 以 立 四 極.

斷 (duàn) = to break, to snap, to cut off

鼇 (áo) = the mythical sea turtle; the great turtle

足 (zú) = foot

以 (yǐ) = to use; so as to; according to; by means of; by; with; because

立 (lì) = to stand; to set up; to establish; to lay down; to draw up

四 (sì) = four

極 (jí) = pole (geography, physics)

Now, looking again at Chinese words referring to cutting with scissors, etc., and comparing with 斷 (duàn) = to break, to snap, to cut off:

cut with scissors; scissors: 剪 (jiǎn)

cut with scissors; scissors: 翦 (jiǎn)

scissors; to cut (with scissors): 鉸 (jiǎo)

shear: 揃 (jiān)

I'd say it is highly unlikely that Nuwa used scissors to break off/cut off the feet of the great turtle.

Edited April 8, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

Come to think of it, the pictures look more like a boomerang and a wind catcher. Just look at the lines that obviously represent the wind behind both symbols. They are right behind the THREE legged bird.

Yeah, and the macaws at Copan really must be elephants, too, because they "look like" elephants. Boomerangs and wind catchers are inconsistent with the mythological traditions of Fuxi and Nuwa. I'd add "and you know it" to the last sentence but you obviously don't.