Freemasonry And Endowment?

[mathonihah]

Thank you. That is definitely evidence for the authenticity of the existence of the t shaped (olfa) compass in the illustration of the ancient mythological figures. Here is a better quality image:

I think that 2,000 years definitely makes it "ancient".

Bump for Mike. Does this answer your question? It is a "Rubbing from pictorial relief carving of 3 registers depicting in bottom register: mythical animals and legendary figures (some winged figures and some feathered figures, such as Fu Xi and Nu Wa); in the middle and the upper registers are historical stories and legendary figures; from the shrine of Wu shi at the Wu Family Shrines, Jiaxiang, Shandong from 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty."

"Citation/References: Chavanne, E. Mission archaeologique dans la chine septentrionale ; pl. 164. / Zhongguo hua xiang shi quan ji, 2000, V. 1, pl. 80. / Zhonghua shu xue da ci dian, 2000, p. 345 (Wu shi ci shi shi hua xiang).

"General note: Wu shi ci: Shrine of Wu Family, located north of Wuzhaishan Village, Zhifang Town, Jiaxiang County, Shandong Province, China.

Wushi Shrine is one of the earliest examples of the offering shrines erected at the Wu family graves

. The monuments were erected in the middle of 2nd century AD, buried due to Yellow River flooding, and were not fully discovered until 1786 by Huang Yi, a Qing sholar and high official. The shrine was a free-standing, peak-roofed structure. / Stone reliefs in the Wu Family Shrines were carved on the walls of the offering shrines, more than 40 engraved wall registers of slabs (16 stabs in the front chamber- Wu Rong Shrine, 17 slabs in the left chamber and 6 slabs in the Wu Liang Shrine) ; 2 pillars and 2 stone lions also appear.

Historical: Stele Date: 4th. day of 3rd. mo. of 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty" (147).

See here and here for more information.

Edited April 8, 2013 by mathonihah

[canard78]

Bump for Mike. Does this answer your question? It is a "Rubbing from pictorial relief carving of 3 registers depicting in bottom register: mythical animals and legendary figures (some winged figures and some feathered figures, such as Fu Xi and Nu Wa); in the middle and the upper registers are historical stories and legendary figures; from the shrine of Wu shi at the Wu Family Shrines, Jiaxiang, Shandong from 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty."

"Citation/References: Chavanne, E. Mission archaeologique dans la chine septentrionale ; pl. 164. / Zhongguo hua xiang shi quan ji, 2000, V. 1, pl. 80. / Zhonghua shu xue da ci dian, 2000, p. 345 (Wu shi ci shi shi hua xiang).

"General note: Wu shi ci: Shrine of Wu Family, located north of Wuzhaishan Village, Zhifang Town, Jiaxiang County, Shandong Province, China.

Wushi Shrine is one of the earliest examples of the offering shrines erected at the Wu family graves

. The monuments were erected in the middle of 2nd century AD, buried due to Yellow River flooding, and were not fully discovered until 1786 by Huang Yi, a Qing sholar and high official. The shrine was a free-standing, peak-roofed structure. / Stone reliefs in the Wu Family Shrines were carved on the walls of the offering shrines, more than 40 engraved wall registers of slabs (16 stabs in the front chamber- Wu Rong Shrine, 17 slabs in the left chamber and 6 slabs in the Wu Liang Shrine) ; 2 pillars and 2 stone lions also appear.

Historical: Stele Date: 4th. day of 3rd. mo. of 1st. year of Jianhe, Eastern Han Dynasty" (147).

See here and here for more information.

Thanks for posting a picture. And I would very much love to get Mike's perspective on whether this is still not enough.

[Calm]

I think someone has shown that since the Chinese mythical Adam and Eve are holding a compass and a square and those same compass and square can be found in Masonic rituals and there are also compass and squares in temple symbols that it is proven that........., no, wait, I'm not sure what that proves.

I think this is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.

[MormonMason]

I think this is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.

I'm inclined to agree. The interesting thing is that these symbols were used by a people who lived on the ancient Silk Road. Connections were made that went all the way into Europe. There is little doubt in my mind that some ideas from China and elsewhere made their way back into Europe at various times. What those ideas were precisely in all cases we cannot say. When it comes to Freemasonry, however, the Fraternity borrowed many symbols and connections with ancient ideas from around the world even when they started out with only two degrees. When they added the third, many more ideas were borrowed, and yet more when the Royal Arch Tradition had its rise.

In the same light I find it curious to read some of the writings and ideas attributed to Confucius. He used terminology that has connections with, or at least is quite similar to, that in Freemasonry. And, he did it using words connected with the square, the level and the compasses. Some would say that there are differences in that in China the use of such terms connected to morality originated in carpenter's guilds whereas those of Freemasons originated among the stone builders' guilds.

It is impressive indeed when it is considered that both traditions used the set square/carpenter's square and compasses to teach morality, and that the symbols of square and compasses also had religious connections from at least the Han Dynasty onward. But, such ideas and connections are dangerous and must be stamped out by any means necessary. Heaven forbid that there should be even a hint of any ancient connections between ancient ideas and Joseph Smith.

[ERayR]

I think this is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.

bcuz's forte

[canard78]

I'm inclined to agree. The interesting thing is that these symbols were used by a people who lived on the ancient Silk Road. Connections were made that went all the way into Europe. There is little doubt in my mind that some ideas from China and elsewhere made their way back into Europe at various times. What those ideas were precisely in all cases we cannot say. When it comes to Freemasonry, however, the Fraternity borrowed many symbols and connections with ancient ideas from around the world even when they started out with only two degrees. When they added the third, many more ideas were borrowed, and yet more when the Royal Arch Tradition had its rise.

In the same light I find it curious to read some of the writings and ideas attributed to Confucius. He used terminology that has connections with, or at least is quite similar to, that in Freemasonry. And, he did it using words connected with the square, the level and the compasses. Some would say that there are differences in that in China the use of such terms connected to morality originated in carpenter's guilds whereas those of Freemasons originated among the stone builders' guilds.

It is impressive indeed when it is considered that both traditions used the set square/carpenter's square and compasses to teach morality, and that the symbols of square and compasses also had religious connections from at least the Han Dynasty onward. But, such ideas and connections are dangerous and must be stamped out by any means necessary. Heaven forbid that there should be even a hint of any ancient connections between ancient ideas and Joseph Smith.

I was just last night helping my daughter whose working on homework about the Silk Road. We had to find 5 extra facts about it (beyond what they were taught in class).

We'd already found that the bubonic plague may have travelled to Europe on the Silk Road and Buddhism from India to the East on the same.

It's tickled me to suggest she adds a line: 'Early symbols now found in the Mormonism travelled on the Silk Road.' She won't... Obviously.

To bcuzbcuz. It's relevant because the tangent is about whether the Masonic symbols have ancient origin.

I'm comfortable with the notion that Joseph was inspired to create a Mormon ceremony which was, in part shaped and triggered by his Masonic experiences. The question in the Chinese tangent, I think, is whether there is evidence that he had been inspired by something that had ancient origins or was a recent invention itself.

We could easily be discussing Ancient Egypt with some of their interesting parallels to Masonry and Mormonism. Or early Christians or...

But you're right. Even if we prove beyond doubt that Nuwa carries a compass not scissors (and the 2000YO Olfa stone rubbings are pretty conclusive) it only proves one thing: Chinese moral myths have a compass and square. It doesn't prove the endowment is inspired. I tend to base my confidence that it is on the way I feel when I go through it. Alma 32 style. It works, so I tend to accept that if it brings me closer to God then it probably is of God.

[MormonMason]

I think you mean "koochie, koochie, koo". It can be found on YouTube.

By the way, you may think it is funny but the 'c' is the kind of typo caused by referring to a Chinese-English dictionary containing an 'e' printed with broken type. The actual form is kuei chü, which, in turn, is an actual phrase in an actual Chinese-English dictionary that uses alternative transliteration. See one such dictionary here.

The phrase kuei chü also means "the custom" as well as things like "way it should be" and "decorum." It is the same as gui ju but is just transliterated differently according to differing scholarly preference over time. You can continue laughing, now. We'll laugh "with" you.

[canard78]

Thank you. That is definitely evidence for the authenticity of the existence of the t shaped (olfa) compass in the illustration of the ancient mythological figures. Here is a better quality image:

I think that 2,000 years definitely makes it "ancient".

Bump for Mike Reed. Is this ancient enough for you? Around 100AD?

[bcuzbcuz]

Yeah, and the macaws at Copan really must be elephants, too, because they "look like" elephants. Boomerangs and wind catchers are inconsistent with the mythological traditions of Fuxi and Nuwa. I'd add "and you know it" to the last sentence but you obviously don't.

You are more correct than you think. There is very little from what we are discussing here that I, or you, actually "know". Paintings, no matter how old, are merely graphical representations of someone's thoughts. You would need to find the actual story that the picture is based upon. Artist take poetic license as much as anyone. Furthermore, the pictures change over time. with each new reproduction. Some pictures have probably been recreated with absolutely no connection to the original story. If you go back over your pictures you will see some that represent the Fu Xi figure without beard or mustasche. The original story is rather ambiguous as to gender. My own work with ancient tales, and I have worked with ancient Norse, Anglosazon and First Nations stories, tells me that gender was very often unimportant to the actual storyline.

Just as modern pictures can be photoshopped, with supposed 'good' intentions, the final product can be misleading. Here's a picture I recently wanted to use in one of my art classes about Roman Mosaic's and their portrayals of dolphins. Only when I carefully checked the picture could I see how the picture had been photoshopped to produce (doubtlessly, a beautiful picture) nevertheless, a fictional creature. Note the back fin added and the dorsal fin moved forward

Edited April 9, 2013 by bcuzbcuz

[bcuzbcuz]

oops

Edited April 9, 2013 by bcuzbcuz

[bcuzbcuz]

bcuz's forte

That's "Mr. bcuzbcuz" to you

[Mike Reed]

Bump for Mike Reed. Is this ancient enough for you? Around 100AD?

Yeah... well... The is the best example that we have so far. I would think that in the 21st century we could rely on more than rubbings from the early 1900s. Do we have any actual photographs of this ancient work?

Here is another that I just found:

Edited April 9, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mathonihah]

Yeah... well... The is the best example that we have so far. I would think that in the 21st century we could rely on more than rubbings from the early 1900s. Do we have any actual photographs of this ancient work?

Have you thought of what excuse you will bring if an actual photograph was found? You never know, somebody may post a photograph next. It is a good idea to be prepared.

[Mike Reed]

Have you thought of what excuse you will bring if an actual photograph was found? You never know, somebody may post a photograph next. It is a good idea to be prepared.

Not looking for excuses. Looking for solid evidence. I am already conceding that this is a pretty good example. Just wishing we had a photo. That's all. Did you notice that I also found and provided an image above depicting the same shaped instrument?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Thanks for posting a picture. And I would very much love to get Mike's perspective on whether this is still not enough.

Good work Canard78.

[bcuzbcuz]

To bcuzbcuz. It's relevant because the tangent is about whether the Masonic symbols have ancient origin.

I'm comfortable with the notion that Joseph was inspired to create a Mormon ceremony which was, in part shaped and triggered by his Masonic experiences. The question in the Chinese tangent, I think, is whether there is evidence that he had been inspired by something that had ancient origins or was a recent invention itself.

We could easily be discussing Ancient Egypt with some of their interesting parallels to Masonry and Mormonism. Or early Christians or...

But you're right. Even if we prove beyond doubt that Nuwa carries a compass not scissors (and the 2000YO Olfa stone rubbings are pretty conclusive) it only proves one thing: Chinese moral myths have a compass and square. It doesn't prove the endowment is inspired. I tend to base my confidence that it is on the way I feel when I go through it. Alma 32 style. It works, so I tend to accept that if it brings me closer to God then it probably is of God.

I agree much more with your conclusion than the premise of finding ancient links to Masonic rites. Freemasonry is a relatively modern invention, a secret society dreamed up roughly 500 years ago in Europe. Looking for links in the Egyptian past would truly be a waste of time

Edited April 9, 2013 by bcuzbcuz

[canard78]

Good work Canard78.

No worries. I live in Asia so am half tempted to make a trip to the Jiaxiang Wu Family Shrines Stone Carving.

It's still standing and a preserved site of interest. I couldn't find any photos of the carving, but plenty of photos of the location and the style is similar to the carving, so not much reason to doubt that the rubbing's genuine.

http://www.china.org.cn/travel/2011-12/21/content_24212409_7.htm

[Mike Reed]

No worries. I live in Asia so am half tempted to make a trip to the Jiaxiang Wu Family Shrines Stone Carving.

It's still standing and a preserved site of interest. I couldn't find any photos of the carving, but plenty of photos of the location and the style is similar to the carving, so not much reason to doubt that the rubbing's genuine.

http://www.china.org..._24212409_7.htm

Don't make the trip for my sake. Although not ideal, I am satisfied with the rubbings that have been provided.

[canard78]

Good work Canard78.

I think this is a photo of the original.

http://www.penn.museum/collections/assets/48926_800.jpg

Edited April 9, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

Don't make the trip for my sake. Although not ideal, I am satisfied with the rubbings that have been provided.

I won't just for you Though I've appreciated your dedication to evidence and challenging assumptions. I consider it important as there are often too many of them.

This whole thread (from about page 4) has been less interesting to me as an investigation into possible Endowment ancient origins and more as a way of following the discussion around Chinese creation myths.

[CASteinman]

How do I upload images from my hard drive to a board?

[MormonMason]

How do I upload images from my hard drive to a board?

1. Click More Reply Options. 2. At the bottom, click Browse... 3. Click Attach This File. It will insert the pictures where your cursor is positioned and save the images for later posting should you choose to reuse whatever is in your My Media dialogue button.

[Ntrw]

Anyone who has read carefully the Hor Book of Breathings sgould not be bothered with the masonry issue. Of course Joseph borrowed from Masonry, just the Jerusalem temple borrowed the design of Phonecian "pagan" temples.

[CASteinman]

I promised to show some references by China Experts showing that Nu Wa holds compasses or a compass. I am sorry it took so long. The images are not important but I brought them over from the books in question. They are not great quality. I don't know how to have them load up so that they are bigger. (Sorry about that). These are all quotes from well qualified experts.

REFERENCE 1

“Significantly, this hexagram's name in the Mawangdui text is gui, “compass,” making round forms, as opposed to the square (compass and square are carried respectively by Nu Wa and Fu Xi as iconographic signifiers).

Citation: Davis, S. (2012). The classic of changes in cultural context: A textual archaeology of the yi jing. (p. Section 8 Endnote 11). Amherst: Cambria.

Link: http://books.google....ved=0CF0Q6AEwBg

Author: http://www.cambriapr...plate=6&bid=507

REFERENCE 2

“Chang has suggested that the oracle bone version of the character depicts an instrument used to draw circles and squares, which represent heaven and earth, respectively. He thus proposes that wu had access to earth and heaven by virtue of geometry, being able to draw circles and squares, which had magical meaning (Chang 2005). Fuxi and Nuwa, mythical founders of China noted in the previous chapter, are sometimes depicted holding the compass and square rule. Thus, the shamans of the Shang and Zhou periods were mathematicians who understood the heavens.”

Citation: Nelson , S. M. (2008). Shamanism and the origin of states: spirit, power, and gender in east. (p. 62). San Francisco: Left Coast Press.

Link: http://books.google....d=0CGcQ6AEwCTge

Author: http://mysite.du.edu...ademic_bio.html

REFERENCE 3

First, it is apparent that the preliminary sketches for carriage wheels were laid out using a compass (gui) to ensure rapid, perfect circularity. The middle of the hub often reveals an indentation where the compass point was anchored. In addition, the diameters of all wheels on a single stone are identical, even on wheels “receded” farthest into the background.

The use of the compass appears to have broadened over time, for on second-century carvings from central Shandong, even the rumps of horses and the outlines of people were rendered as perfect arcs with a compass …

[Artisans]… frequently illustrated the tool held in the hands of the creatrix Nuwa. Fuxi, Nuwa's consort, carries the carpenter's square, another tool vital to masons and draftsmen.

Citation: Barbieri-Low, A. J. (2007). Artisans in early imperial China (p. 91). Seattle: University of Washington Press.

Link: http://books.google....d=0CF0Q6AEwBzgU

Author: http://www.history.u...w.cv.public.pdf

REFERENCE 4

(From discussion of a Funerary banner showing Fuxi and Nuwa, from the Stein 3rd expedition):

“In traditional Chinese cosmology the earth was square and the heavens round and thus Fuxi holds a set square to draw the former and Nuwa a pair of compasses to draw the circle of the earth.”

Citation: Whitfield, S (2004) The Silk Road: Trade, Travel, War and Faith. (p 329). Chicago: Serindia Publications (with the British Library)

.Link: http://books.google....Compass&f=false

Author: http://idp.bl.uk/edu...rs/index.a4d#SW

REFERENCE 5

“Fu Xi and Nu Wa are often depicted with the sun and the moon and they are shown holding a carpenter’s square (Fu Xi) and a drawing compass (Nu Wa). The former are metonyms for Heaven and the celestial equivalents of yin and yang. The latter suggests the linking of square Earth to the Round heaven.”

Citation: Lewis, M.E. (1999). Writing and authority in early China (p. 204). Albany: SUNY Press.

Link: http://books.google....Compass&f=false

Author: http://history.stanf...du/lewis_mark_e

REFERENCE 6

The compasses held by Nuwa stands for the sky. while the carpenter's square held by Fuxi stands for the earth.

Citation: Chengyuan, M. (1998). Archaeological Treasures of the Silk Road In Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. (Xinjiang Weiwu'er Zizhiqu Si Lu Kao Gu Zhen Pin). (p. 293). Shanghai: Shanghai Translation Publishing House. (Originally University of Michigan).

Link: http://books.google....ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

Author: http://www.nytimes.c.../arts/15ma.html

REFERENCE 7

"Figure 5. Fu His and Nu Wa (deities associated with yang and yin chi respectively)holding the compass and square as symbols of the divine order. Illustration from tomb tile excavated from Chungking, Szechwan (45 x 39 cm.) now in the Szechwan Provincial Museum" (Related Commentary on yin and yang): “The Way of Heaven is a perfect compass. The Way of Earth is a perfect carpenter’s square. The compass in motion describes a complete circle through the sites. The square, unmoving, secures things in their proper place.”

Citation: Nylan, M. (1993). T’ai Hsuan Ching - The Canon of Supreme Mystery by Yang Hsiung (p 120) Albany: SUNY Press.

Link: http://books.google....Compass&f=false

Author: http://history.berke...e/michael-nylan

REFERENCE 8

Commentary on Figure 1.2 Stone relief from the shrine of Wu Liang in Jiaziang County, Shandong (rubbing in the collection of the Needham Research Institute, Cambridge):

“The picture shows two beings, half human and half snake, with the snake-tails intertwined. The one on the right, presumably Fuxi. holds a carpenter’s square. The one on the on the left is presumably Nuwa who is known from Han Texts as Fuxi’s wife... In other representations of this scene in the Wu family shrine Nuwa holds a drawing compass. The small figure between Fuxi and Nuwa may be a child.”

Citation: Wagoner, D.B. (1992) Handbuch der Orientalistik (p 5). The Netherlands: E.J. Brill

Link: http://books.google....Compass&f=false

Author: http://ku-dk.academi...u/DonaldBWagner

REFERENCE 9

Fu Hsi and NU Wa can be Identified by the instruments which they hold in their hands. Fu Hsi holds a carpenter's square, and Nu Wa holds a compass.

Citation: Powers, M.J. (1978) The Shapes of Power in Han Pictorial Art, Volume 1 (p 171) Chicago: University of Chicago.

Link: http://books.google....s#search_anchor

Author: https://docs.google....TOGEy793dzQ4_JA

REFERENCE 10

Description of a tomb entrance: "The right-hand pillar of the entrance has at the top the figures of Fu Hsi (to the right with set- square) and his female partner Nu Wa (to the left with compasses). These two culture-heroes, conceived as half human,half serpent, had in Han times already been euhemerized as ancient..Taoist deities and their trains were conceived to pass at will through the sky."

Citation: Watson, W. (1960) Archaeology in China (p 30). London: Max Parrish (University of London. Institute of Archaeology).

Link: http://books.google....ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

Author: http://en.wikipedia....son_(sinologist)

Edited April 10, 2013 by CASteinman

[bjw]

I agree much more with your conclusion than the premise of finding ancient links to Masonic rites. Freemasonry is a relatively modern invention, a secret society dreamed up roughly 500 years ago in Europe. Looking for links in the Egyptian past would truly be a waste of time

I agree much more with your conclusion than the premise of finding ancient links to Masonic rites. Freemasonry is a relatively modern invention, a secret society dreamed up roughly 500 years ago in Europe. Looking for links in the Egyptian past would truly be a waste of time

Even Albert Pike's writings show that there is much ancient symbolism in masonry. Grand Lodge Masonry was founded in Europe in 1717, but it goes back much further based on what we have. The hermetic writings of the period show that many of the ancient mysteries were incorporated into masonry, and as said early its understandable that we have "fragments" after all the years of corruption.