Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Mike Reed]

I promised to show some references by China Experts showing that Nu Wa holds compasses or a compass. I am sorry it took so long. The images are not important but I brought them over from the books in question. They are not great quality. I don't know how to have them load up so that they are bigger. (Sorry about that). These are all quotes from well qualified experts.

Thanks for the list of references, but I don't think anyone here ever doubted that you could find people interpreting the art saying that she held a compass. The issues in question were 1) could you find an ancient image of Nuwa holding an olfa styled compass, and 2) can you quote ancient mythology stating that she carried a compass. Quesiton one has indeed been fulfilled already by Canard, although issue two still hasn't been met (to my knowledge, but I suppose I may have overlooked quotes provided). Two is really a moot point to me, after Canard's efforts to fulfill issue one. I am just saying that your quotes, although appreciated, did not address either of the issues that were at hand.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Mike Reed

[canard78]

Thanks for the list of references, but I don't think anyone here ever doubted that you could find people interpreting the art saying that she held a compass. The issues in question were 1) could you find an ancient image of Nuwa holding an olfa styled compass, and 2) can you quote ancient mythology stating that she carried a compass. Quesiton one has indeed been fulfilled already by Canard, although issue two still hasn't been met (to my knowledge, but I suppose I may have overlooked quotes provided). Two is really a moot point to me, after Canard's efforts to fulfill issue one. I am just saying that your quotes, although appreciated, did not address either of the issues that were at hand.

FWIW, and I know it's of no real relevance to the question of Freemasonry and the Endowment, I'm still interested to see if I can find anything. Chinese mythology, philosophy and theology is fascinating and I'd not heard of this before. So am interested to see where it's from anyway if I can.

[canard78]

Please don't divert this thread with minutia

Ha...

Well we certainly paid close attention to your request Bill. From macro freemasonry vs the endowment to ancient olfa compass carvings in China.

[wenglund]

Sigh... First of all... early modern is not the period of the 20th century. As for the modern period... no. Of course not, silly. Why should early modern or modern reinterpretation/reinvention of tradition have any bearing upon ancient material culture?

Really? Are you really asking these question? So ridiculous.

I expect these kinds of mocking over-reactions from people with narrow-minds, blinded by confirmation bias. So, I wasn't surprised to find it coming from you. As the evidence continues to mount against your insipid "scissor" position, you seem all the more desperate and dismissive and projective. It is quite amusing to watch.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 10, 2013 by wenglund

[Mike Reed]

I expect these kinds of mocking over-reactions from people with narrow-minds, blinded by confirmation bias. So, I wasn't surprised to find it coming from you. As the evidence continues to mount against your insipid "scissor" position, you seem all the more desperate and dismissive and projective. It is quite amusing to watch.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You haven't paid attention. I've since conceded that it is probably a compass, now that suitable evidence has been provided. However, I still stand my my statement that the early modern period does not include the 20th century, and that such drawings are not suitable evidence. Fortunately, we now have a photo and several documented rubbings.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Mike Reed

[wenglund]

It is of interest in that light that square and compasses have similar connections in Chinese traditional thought regarding the square representing earth and the compasses representing the heavens. Indeed, Nuwa does have connection with the heavens in the old traditions. Her holding of the compasses is appropriate in that light, which makes a heck of a lot more sense than her using scissors as a working tool in creation.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, in Chinese ancient tradition (see the previous links), the earth and heaven are symbolized, often in architecture and buildings, by circles and squares. This ties in nicely with the compass (used to draw circles) and the square (used to draw squares). The concept of "scissors" seems entirely out of place.

But, I suppose that until we come up with primary ancient sources, Mike will think he has a leg to stand on in spite of his not having any primary sources to appeal to for support of his "scissor" position. Oh well.

[Edit: I see now from MM's post on page 14 that he is already aware of the tie-in between earth/circles/compass and heaven/square/squares. I also see the same is underscored in the several references in CASteinman's post #299, page 15]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 10, 2013 by wenglund

[wenglund]

You haven't paid attention. I've since conceded that it is probably a compass, now that suitable evidence has been provided. However, I still stand my my statement that the early modern period does not include the 20th century, and that such drawings are not suitable evidence. Fortunately, we now have a photo and several documented rubbings.

My apologies. I am reading sequentially through the thread, and so I haven't gotten to your concession. I will be pleased to read it. Hopefully, the humble pie was sweet rather than bitter. Feel free to ignore portions of my comments above that are in response to when you were still operating in darkness and arrogantly and mistakenly dismissing differing views--i.e when you were still projectively in your own alternate universe. ;/

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are out of the thread

[wenglund]

Good point. I think someone has shown that since the Chinese mythical Adam and Eve are holding a compass and a square and those same compass and square can be found in Masonic rituals and there are also compass and squares in temple symbols that it is proven that........., no, wait, I'm not sure what that proves.

I am sure it proves your brilliant claim about "scissors." Right?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[MormonMason]

Even Albert Pike's writings show that there is much ancient symbolism in masonry. Grand Lodge Masonry was founded in Europe in 1717, but it goes back much further based on what we have. The hermetic writings of the period show that many of the ancient mysteries were incorporated into masonry, and as said early its understandable that we have "fragments" after all the years of corruption.

Hence, the importance of the Hermetic representation of the Rebis (male and female conjoined and holding square and compasses) existing in print before Grand Lodge Freemasonry, which Pike reproduces in Morals and Dogma.

[bcuzbcuz]

I am sure it proves your brilliant claim about "scissors." Right?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What can I say, other than 'thoroughly entertaining'. Thank YOU.

[CASteinman]

Thanks for the list of references, but I don't think anyone here ever doubted that you could find people interpreting the art saying that she held a compass.

Not so. You seemed to doubt it while insisting it was scissors. However, when I offered to bring these here, you wanted not these reasonable references but PRIMARY sources. Which I am still working THAT but I have become heavily involved at work.

I recognize these many sources from experts with more pertinent experience than you have, are insufficiently knowledgeable to meet your standards and are (as far as you are concerned) not qualified to challenge your conviction that these are scissors. But I hope others will be able to make up their own minds on the matter.

The issues in question were 1) could you find an ancient image of Nuwa holding an olfa styled compass,

I am unaware of this being an issue and I consider it irrelevant. No matter what the myths say or do not say about the compasses, the artists were free to make their interpretations as they saw fit.

and 2) can you quote ancient mythology stating that she carried a compass.

This, however, is probably not irrelevant.

I tried and I think Reference 7 sort of does that. Although the figure shown in that reference was found in the book and has a note attached to it, the text commentary is from the ancient Chinese text where the figure did not appear. This one does not mention Fuxi or Nuwa, but it says: “The Way of Heaven is a perfect compass. The Way of Earth is a perfect carpenter’s square. The compass in motion describes a complete circle through the sites. The square, unmoving, secures things in their proper place.” The quote connects the compass and the square with Yin and Yang -- which Nuwa and Fuxi are also said to represent and even you will agree that one of them holds a square. Yet you insist the other is holding scissors -- an item not attested to anywhere in these same conditions.

Quesiton one has indeed been fulfilled already by Canard, although issue two still hasn't been met (to my knowledge, but I suppose I may have overlooked quotes provided). Two is really a moot point to me, after Canard's efforts to fulfill issue one. I am just saying that your quotes, although appreciated, did not address either of the issues that were at hand.

Not really relevant and I don't understand why you would appreciate the quotes. The fact is this: You, emphatically claimed that it was scissors and not a compass, insulting people who disagreed with you, making silly "bandwagon" complaints, and weirdly declaring yourself and your opinion the winner of it all.

This host of expert witnesses are testimony that you were wrong. That was the issue I was focused on. I have gotten busy at work and will try to attend more fully to the myths, when I can.

Edited April 10, 2013 by CASteinman

[Calm]

I don't know how to have them load up so that they are bigger. (Sorry about that).

If one clicks on the picture, they get plenty big.

[Mike Reed]

Not so. You seemed to doubt it while insisting it was scissors.

You didn't understand my doubt. I knew that you could find people stating that they interpreted it this way. What I wanted was evidence that their interpretations were correct.

However, when I offered to bring these here, you wanted not these reasonable references but PRIMARY sources. Which I am still working THAT but I have become heavily involved at work.

No worries. Take your time.

I recognize these many sources from experts with more pertinent experience than you have, are insufficiently knowledgeable to meet your standards and are (as far as you are concerned) not qualified to challenge your conviction that these are scissors. But I hope others will be able to make up their own minds on the matter.

You are putting words in my mouth. They are qualified to challend my position. I merely appreciate concrete evidence when such is done.

I am unaware of this being an issue and I consider it irrelevant. No matter what the myths say or do not say about the compasses, the artists were free to make their interpretations as they saw fit.

Of course they were free to. But again, I wanted concrete evidence... and fortunately I got it from Canard.

I tried and I think Reference 7 sort of does that. Although the figure shown in that reference was found in the book and has a note attached to it, the text commentary is from the ancient Chinese text where the figure did not appear. This one does not mention Fuxi or Nuwa, but it says: “The Way of Heaven is a perfect compass. The Way of Earth is a perfect carpenter’s square. The compass in motion describes a complete circle through the sites. The square, unmoving, secures things in their proper place.” The quote connects the compass and the square with Yin and Yang -- which Nuwa and Fuxi are also said to represent

Yes indeed. This is a pretty good example. Not directly tied to Nuwa as I would have liked, but good none the less.

and even you will agree that one of them holds a square. Yet you insist the other is holding scissors -- an item not attested to anywhere in these same conditions.

Which is precisely why I asked what could be quoted from ancient mythology to support either of our positions.

Not really relevant and I don't understand why you would appreciate the quotes. The fact is this: You, emphatically claimed that it was scissors and not a compass, insulting people who disagreed with you, making silly "bandwagon" complaints, and weirdly declaring yourself and your opinion the winner of it all.

I don't know how "emphatically" I did, but yes... I took the position that they were scissors. Bandwagon appeals are fallacious. And so I called you on it. Did that mean that your position wrong? No. But it did mean that your argument was weak. Are you following the distinction that I am making here. Again... weak argument does not necessarily indicate incorrect position. I wanted you to better support your position. Fortunately Canard was able to help you with that.

This host of expert witnesses are testimony that you were wrong. That was the issue I was focused on.

But nobody denied that others took a different position than me. I was quite aware of that. Again... what I wanted was evidence, not testimony.

I have gotten busy at work and will try to attend more fully to the myths, when I can.

Ok. Take your time. I look forward to what you come up with.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Mike Reed

[MormonMason]

...

...

The original brick carving of this above rubbing taken from an actual inscription from the Han Dynasty can be seen in the following publication:

Chen Lianshan, Chinese Myths and Legends (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2011), 35.

Warning: The author or publisher mixes up the names of deities in the silk artwork also depicted on the same page.

ETA: Above I was castigated by Mike Reed for using the term "veil" to describe these silk paintings. I stated that I did so because some writers I have read used the same term to describe these very thin, painted silks. He accused me of just trying to use the term because, he claimed, I was just trying to use the term to equate them with temple veils in LDS temples. He is very wrong about that but he is wont to cast accusations and aspersions in the face of opposition, particularly when it comes to me, it would seem.

Here is one example of an author also describing these funerary banners/coffin covers as veils. The reference is: Robin R. Wang, Yinyang: The Way of Heaven and Earth in Chinese Thought and Culture (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2012), 101-103 [only pages 101-102 display on Google Books, however]. Her credentials are here.

Edited April 11, 2013 by MormonMason

[CASteinman]

You didn't understand my doubt. I knew that you could find people stating that they interpreted it this way. What I wanted was evidence that their interpretations were correct.

Well, that is what you say now. That is not what you said then.

Bandwagon appeals are fallacious.

Yes they are, and so is your use of that objection.

It is not "Bandwagon Appeal" to point out that you are contradicting experts -- while you, yourself are no expert. Indeed, what you were doing was argumentum ad verecundiam which is a fallacy -- but only when the authority in question is not actually an authority or when one is cherry picking authorities and ignoring contra examples. Which you were doing but I was not.

But nobody denied that others took a different position than me. I was quite aware of that.

You never acknowledged they existed, when in a fair conversation, it would have been reasonable to do so.

But enough of that. Next post ... some info that a friend has made me aware of..

Edited April 11, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Regarding the Square - Circle motif as associated with Earth and Heaven..

I have been shown this website:

http://www.chaz.org/Arch/China/Architecture/Mingtang.html

I notice this quote: "The inner square, which contains the nine-in-one square, represents the earthly temple. The center circle is the uppermost part of he temple, which must be built in the form of a circle, symbolizing heaven. Thus the vertical axis of the temple is the heavenly conduit that facilitates worship, while the horizontal axes of the rectangular temple building ground the temple in the land of the living and connect it with the four quarters of the world."

And this site also was sent to me:

http://www.morumon.org/japanculturecompasssquare.htm

Which starts with this interesting observation:

"Examining the Chinese Confucian classics (Confucius, Mencius, et al.), we find evidence that the tools compass, square, level and line were used as didactic symbols in ancient China. But whereas in the West these same tools were used for didactic purposes in a tradition claiming an origin in masonry, we will find that that in China and Japan the use of these tools as didactic symbols was an aspect of the esoteric traditions of carpentry. "

There is also an interesting mention of the Square and the Compass being used to judge morality.

All-in-all, it is an interesting article detailing the similarities between Masonic use of those symbols and asian use of Carpentry Based objects as symbols -- including comparing how Carpentry Guilds would operate.

[mfbukowski]

Regarding the Square - Circle motif as associated with Earth and Heaven..

I have been shown this website:

http://www.chaz.org/...e/Mingtang.html

I notice this quote: "The inner square, which contains the nine-in-one square, represents the earthly temple. The center circle is the uppermost part of he temple, which must be built in the form of a circle, symbolizing heaven. Thus the vertical axis of the temple is the heavenly conduit that facilitates worship, while the horizontal axes of the rectangular temple building ground the temple in the land of the living and connect it with the four quarters of the world."

And this site also was sent to me:

http://www.morumon.o...mpasssquare.htm

Which starts with this interesting observation:

"Examining the Chinese Confucian classics (Confucius, Mencius, et al.), we find evidence that the tools compass, square, level and line were used as didactic symbols in ancient China. But whereas in the West these same tools were used for didactic purposes in a tradition claiming an origin in masonry, we will find that that in China and Japan the use of these tools as didactic symbols was an aspect of the esoteric traditions of carpentry. "

There is also an interesting mention of the Square and the Compass being used to judge morality.

All-in-all, it is an interesting article detailing the similarities between Masonic use of those symbols and asian use of Carpentry Based objects as symbols -- including comparing how Carpentry Guilds would operate.

Wood working is much cooler anyway. Fresh cut wood smells great! I mean what good is rock dust? Sawdust can be used to make all kinds of things.

That reminds me that I need to get out to my shop and make some!

[MormonMason]

I have been away for a while due to time constraints (and still have little time for posting beyond what I am about to post) but wanted to point out something that happened while I have been away. Someone I know contacted the British Museum about the page discussed here regarding whether it was compasses or scissors that were in the silk discussed on the web page that was cited above as evidence against the device in the hand being a compass rather than scissors.

The British Museum, after looking over the materials referenced by the person I know, changed the page to say that the item in the hand was what "appears to be a compass." Further down, the Curator himself now states:

The present instance is unusual in that Nu Wa is on the right, in the place usually taken by Fu Xi. She holds what appears to be a compass, and he the set-square ruled with divisions in white.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=6881&partId=1&searchText=fu+xi+silk&images=true&page=1

Just wanted to post this update. I do not know when or if I will be able to return to post further for the foreseeable future.

[Calm]

Very interesting, thanks for the update.

[mfbukowski]

I have been away for a while due to time constraints (and still have little time for posting beyond what I am about to post) but wanted to point out something that happened while I have been away. Someone I know contacted the British Museum about the page discussed here regarding whether it was compasses or scissors that were in the silk discussed on the web page that was cited above as evidence against the device in the hand being a compass rather than scissors.

The British Museum, after looking over the materials referenced by the person I know, changed the page to say that the item in the hand was what "appears to be a compass." Further down, the Curator himself now states:

http://www.britishmu...ges=true&page=1

Just wanted to post this update. I do not know when or if I will be able to return to post further for the foreseeable future.

WOW- congratulations to your friend!

[Mike Reed]

I have been away for a while due to time constraints (and still have little time for posting beyond what I am about to post) but wanted to point out something that happened while I have been away. Someone I know contacted the British Museum about the page discussed here regarding whether it was compasses or scissors that were in the silk discussed on the web page that was cited above as evidence against the device in the hand being a compass rather than scissors.

The British Museum, after looking over the materials referenced by the person I know, changed the page to say that the item in the hand was what "appears to be a compass." Further down, the Curator himself now states:

http://www.britishmu...ges=true&page=1

Just wanted to post this update. I do not know when or if I will be able to return to post further for the foreseeable future.

Good work.

[haitianlex10]

99+% of Mormons seem to understand it just fine without any knowledge of Freemasonry.

prophets have said they still down't fully understand the endowment

[cinepro]

prophets have said they still down't fully understand the endowment

I always have to share this quote when the subject of Temple symbolism comes up:

Do you remember when you first went through the House of the Lord? I do. And I went out disappointed. Just a young man, out of college, anticipating great things when I went to the Temple. I was disappointed and grieved, and I have met hundreds of young men and young women since who had that experience. I have now found out why. There are two things in every Temple: the mechanics, to set forth certain ideals, and symbolism, what those mechanics symbolize. I saw only the mechanics when I first went through the Temple. I did not see the spiritual. I did not see the symbolism of spirituality. Speaking plainly, I saw men, physical state, which offended me. That is a mechanic of washing....I was blind to the great lesson of purity behind the mechanics. I did not hear the message of the Lord, "Be ye clean who bear the vessels of the Lord." I did not hear that eternal truth, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." The symbolism was lost entirely....And so with the anointing, following the washing. Do you see the symbolism?...How many of us young men saw that? We thought we were big enough and with intelligence sufficient to criticize the mechanics of it and we were blind to the symbolism, the message of the spirit. And then that great ordinance, the endowment. The whole thing simple in the mechanical part of it, but sublime and eternal in its significance.

Address delivered by David O. McKay at the dedicatory services of the additions to the Arizona Temple, December 30, 1956, as cited in "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism" page 277

[Nevo]

I always have to share this quote when the subject of Temple symbolism comes up:

I have no issue with that quote, but I utterly reject another statement that gets attributed to President McKay where he says, "Brothers and sisters, I was disappointed in the Temple. And so were you” (see here). That could not be farther from the truth in my case. I had a wonderful experience.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Nevo

[Alvie J]

I am a Mormon and Freemason, and am a member of Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, York Rite, Eastern Star, Rosicrucian Order, and Traditional Martinist Order. I think this is a topic that has many misconceptions from people who only look at the blue lodge degrees and then try to conclude that the endowment only merely borrows from those degrees or that it uses masonry as a "vehicle" to teach its lesson. I use to believe this way when I was in the lower degrees, but having been in masonry as long as I have and learned what I have I have changed my view. I know there's only so much we can talk about since both Mormonism and masonry require secrecy, but I will keep my discussion to non-esoteric topics.

We know masonry was official founded in 1717, but I believe this is only when the Grand Lodge was founded, which I believe was a consolidation of many different fraternities that focused on esoteric subjects, but wanted the fellowship of having a large organization of people in-common. Even today masons can go to a town they've never been to but feel welcome when they see brothers who have gone through the same rituals they have.

One part in the 3rd degree (I won't mention it here) mentions the need for future generations to restore something, and I think early Mormons believed that the masonic rituals pointed to the truth being someday restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. These issued are addressed further in the higher degrees, such as the subject of the "lost word." The Old Testament context is added further in the 14th degree which deals which is Perfect Elu (Elu referring to "elect priest," and Melchizedek is even mentioned at one point.) Those who have been through both this ceremony as well as the LDS Temple Initiatory will notice some similar wording. (I won't go any further on this, this much you can learn through what both organizations publish in books.)

Climbing the ladder further you start to learn the reason for good and evil co-existing, the Rose-Croix degrees touch on this subject, and this is something covered in-depth in Mormonism, not just the temple. The candidate learns if he wants to go further he has to go face-to-face with his own mortality.

The Elu degrees are derived from Martinism and the Rose-Croix degrees are derived from Rosicrucianism but are adapted to Freemasonry. For instance, the Solomon/Hiram legend is not on the forefront when you are going through the Rosicrucian and Martinist degrees directly, but in Scottish Rite it is. Martinism, as I understand its origin, was founded through a lineage of Western occultism/esoteric Christianity in the 1600s and 1700s, who taught esoteric Christian doctrines usually in secret lodge meeting to avoid persecution. Many of these saw masonry as the perfect vehicle to practice their beliefs without doing so publicly, and they formed their own fraternity, which I believe was called the "Order of Elus-Cohen," later shortened to "Elu" when absorbed by the Scottish Rite.

When you join the Traditional Martinist Order, you learn many doctrines that are similar to Mormonism, such as 3 Heavens (two are called celestial and terrestrial), the fall of Adam and Eve being necessary, Angels that stand as guardians to God's presence, goal of life to reintegrate with the Divine, and Jesus being separate from the Father. You don't learn any of these doctrines in the Elu degrees of the Scottish Rite, but when the original order of elus-cohen dissolved it split into many different Grand Lodges of Traditional Martinist Order that are more like "educational lodges" that teach in addition to do degrees. Each one claims to have a lineage that goes back to St. Martin. The Scottish Rite version of the elu degrees have removed most of the Christian theme of the Elu degrees to fit the Freemason Hiramic legend. However, when people study the history of the degrees it points to the original, which is what led me to seek out the Martinist degrees.

The York Rite has some remnants of the Endowment as well, both in procedures as well as the degrees themselves.

In the past few years I've concluded that what Joseph Smith restored is the authentic, ancient order of the mysteries, and we see many remnants of them in the modern-day fraternal orders and societies. I think the early leaders of the LDS church saw it this way as well. Also, while Freemasonry wasn't officially "organized" until 1717 and the Scottish Rite and York Rite, with other "rites" were founded even much later, I think that they are the decendants from many organizations that were supposed to practice their beliefs in secret because they feared persecution, as well as didn't want to have their beliefs mocked by casting "pearls" before "swine." I think once the Great Apostacy occured many groups left the mainstream churches to practice their own beliefs in private and that is why we have so many different fraternities today that practice beliefs that sometimes are in conflict with each other.

Now, the real question is, did Joseph Smith or any early LDS leaders have any kind of access to these teachings, or did Joseph Smith really receive the revelations to restore the true ancient order that all these organizations seem to have a remnant of?

If you’re really interested in the Book of Mormon and its connection to Masonry and the Rosicrucians perhaps you might look at this college research paper in which explores the Book of Mormon as a ciphered text.  It’s full of colored graphs and to pictures better help the reader discern the ciphers and their meanings. 

 

https://www.academia.edu/7892970/The_Mormon_Cipher