Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Mike Reed]

Look Mike you think you are on to something. Write it up. get it peer reviewed Lets see how it passes that test. Its pretty silly for you to stand around and say "Look I am so wonderful and noticed things no one else saw before -- prove me wrong everyone or be called ridiculous" -- and no one here is an expert in this subject.

Write up your idea and get it peer reviewed.

Until you do that though, seriously you have almost no credibility. Because other people who ARE experts have identified this as a Compass. It does not matter how much you wish that were not true, that is how it is. Experts are currently not in agreement with you.

So you need to get some credibility.

Or would you seriously advocate that in the interest of objective honesty people should just believe the first odd random theory that comes along from a non-expert?

Credibility.

Have you noticed that I am a "contributor", and not merely a "member" on this forum as you are?

You were asking about my credentials a few posts back. I have earned my BA and MA in humanities/religious studies (btw... art history fits within this field). I am earning my doctorate in History at GTU/UC Berkeley. My studies specialize in material culture, ritual studies, religious symbolism, Modern American Christian history, Mormon history, and esoteric studies. I have published my research in the past. Perhaps I will on this topic in the future. I have written for FAIR and FARMS. I have a book published by John Whitmer Books. I have spoken at several conferences across the country, write for two blogs, won the broadie award for best historical blog post of 2009, have had my research covered in two newspapers, and have been interviewed on (as of next week) three podcasts. How about you?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

You were asking about my credentials a few posts back. I have earned my BA and MA in humanities/religious studies (btw... art history fits within this field). I am earning my doctorate in History at GTU/UC Berkeley. My studies specialize in material culture, symbolism, Modern American Christian history, Mormon history, and esoteric studies. I have published my research in the past. Perhaps I will on this topic in the future. I have a book published by John Whitmer Books. I have spoken at several conferences across the country, have had my research covered in two newspapers, and have been interviewed on (as of next week) three podcasts.

So.. no Chinese history, mythology, art studies etc.

Uh huh.

You need to get some credibility.

As for me. You are trying to get the approval of me and others here -- who are just random folk (actually like you) to agree with your theory. Well you need to get some credibility in the field.

A peer reviewed paper in an Asian Literature and Arts Journal would be especially good.

And why is this necessary? Because.. lets mention this again -- your entire theory depends upon two sources: 1. A QUESTIONED identification possibly made my a non-expert and 2. You. Someone with no credibility.

Seriously... would you consider that adequate in any academic arena?

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[Mike Reed]

You are being silly again, CAS. My thesis is also supported by my analisis of material culture. Remember my comparison of the designs of scissors, and how they match both designs that are found on the ancient "veils" (so called by MM)?

Now you are just appealing to authority. Did you know that this is a fallacy?

Seems to me that you've got nothing left to contribute. No dates for the drawings you've tried to substantiate your thesis with. No further analysis.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[volgadon]

You. Someone with no credibility.

Utter nonsense. Mike is credible. You may disagree with his conclusions (though please provide credible analysis when doing so), but he is no hack.

[Mike Reed]

So.. no Chinese history, mythology, art studies etc.

My BA and MA were in Humanities, which (as I already explainedd) includes art history. As a PhD student I also specialize in religious symbolism and material culture.

[CASteinman]

My BA and MA were in Humanities, which (as I already explainedd) includes art history. As a PhD student I also specialize in religious symbolism and material culture.

OK.. where is the CHINA? Cause that's the key here.

[CASteinman]

Utter nonsense. Mike is credible. You may disagree with his conclusions (though please provide credible analysis when doing so), but he is no hack.

I did not say he was a hack. I said he had no credibility. And he has none. No more credibility than anyone else who can look at pictures and say "In my opinion its this or its that".

HOWEVER, he has come out and expressed an opinion that is contrary to what the mythology says. OK, fine.

What are his expert credentials to challenge them?

I'm fine if you want to explain those. Go for it. Start with China. Does he read Chinese? Does he have bookshelves of Chinese myths? Papers on Chinese mythology all over his desk?

Go ahead. Defend.

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[volgadon]

Yes I did. I also caught his age (1862 – 1943) and the year of publication (1928).

Sir Aurel Stein was a towering figure in the archaeology and study of Central Asia, but by no means is his the last word.

[Mike Reed]

They look more like woodcuts or some kind of block prints to me. The images have clean edges where rubbings don't

Sir Aurel Stein was a towering figure in the archaeology and study of Central Asia, but by no means is his the last word.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

Sir Aurel Stein was a towering figure in the archaeology and study of Central Asia, but by no means is his the last word.

Is that a fair critique? What I mean is --- who would you say IS the Last word? No one? Then perhaps simply saying that he is not the last word is not fair.

And lets focus on the task at hand: How is he in this subject vs Mike Reed? Would you venture a guess?

[MormonMason]

The last two images in post #120, one a hand drawing of a wall inscription, and the other a woodcut of a similar inscription, appear to be late Han Dynasty. I am not certain about the previous image to those but it matches the description of another Han Dynasty carving.

I will have more to say about this sometime later but I thought I would add another photo to the mix to pontificate upon.

No, these can't be a pair of compasses. Nuwa must be holding "scissors" in this one, too, right?

Task for those wanting to claim "scissors" in the image: Find an ancient mythology of Nuwa and Fuxi that explicitly states that Nuwa used scissors in the creation. All of the traditions I am aware of regarding her have her holding some form of compasses. I know of none involving scissors. But, perhaps you will be luckier than we and be able to produce one from legitimate data not of your own creation. Happy hunting....

[mathonihah]

Your link isn't the slightest bit helpful. Again... are these ancient drawings?

By following some of the links in that Google search result, I found some useful information. Some of the drawings may be modern, but they are redrawings of ancient ones. The following for example is a vector graphic created by a website that sells this kind of stuff online:

See here for the page that sells it. But it is patterned after an ancient design. The following appears to be the original design on which it has been based:

Nu Wa and Fu Xi, holding a gui (compass) and a ju (square)

The above image comes from this site, which appears to be a respectable site on Ancient history. The image carries the caption written underneath it; and next to it is offered this explanation:

"Among the early beings were the male Fuxi and the female Nuwa. Nuwa created the first humans out of clay and Fuxi is said to be an early ruler. Other early rulers followed, including Shen Nong, who invented agriculture and, the Yellow Emperor, who invented pottery and the civilizing technology of writing."

Here is a blog post written in French, translated into English by Google. It shows the same designs, indicating that they are ancient, and has some interesting comments to make about them. This is what it says about that particular image:

"Among the coincidences or similarities raise questions in terms of the symbolism and traditions, there is this fairly well known representation of the couple Fuxi and Nuwa Chinese mythology, their bodies entwined by a snake and holding in his hand, the square, it the compass. I give here some reproductions

from ancient sources

."

The above is from an automatic translation made by Google, so it is not perfect; but it conveys the message clearly enough. And here is the image that it is referring to:

I have also just done a Google Book search using the search term "nuwa square compass," and found that there are hundreds of books written on the subject, all of which indicate (1) that the images are ancient; and (2) they depict a square and a compass. Click on the link to see them for yourself. Reading the "summary" passages extracted by Google next to each book is very revealing.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

And by the way, the twisting of their tails may be intended to suggest an amorous relationship between them. Snakes mate by twisting their bodies round each other. Here are some images:

Note especially the tangled tails in the above image.

[volgadon]

Is that a fair critique? What I mean is --- who would you say IS the Last word? No one? Then perhaps simply saying that he is not the last word is not fair.

And lets focus on the task at hand: How is he in this subject vs Mike Reed? Would you venture a guess?

It is rather ironic that Sir Aurel Stein himself knew no Chinese, though his assistants did. According to your logic, he would have little credibility in this discussion.

[CASteinman]

It is rather ironic that Sir Aurel Stein himself knew no Chinese, though his assistants did. According to your logic, he would have little credibility in this discussion.

I'm OK with that. I have not relied upon him. You apparently are not accurately following my argument. Maybe I have not made it well. So let me try again.

1. Lots of scholars have printed books that say that the tradition and myth is that she is holding a compass.

2. Mike Reed says "no, they are scissors".

3. I do not really care either way. This is all new to me and interesting but not in any way important to my beliefs -- its just an interesting thing. But now at this point I am called upon to either accept what Mike Reed says or accept what other scholars have said.

4. So... what are his credentials to declare that these are scissors and NOT a compass as others have said?

In that regard I notice:

A. He used a visual observation of scissors -- something available to ANYONE with vision and modest intelligence. It does not require a degree of any sort.

B. He used a website that itself questions its own judgement.

C. He used no special historical analysis or review of any sort.

D He did not address anything that other scholars have said contrary.

So... what this boils down to is that Mike says "Its scissors cause it looks like it to me and I found a website that might or might not support me".

My response is.. Why should I accept your view on this contrary to the word of so many scholars who have looked at the MYTH? (To me an oral tradition would have more weight in this than a questionable drawing identification)

His reply: Cause I have some degrees in history related areas and published a book.

Well, what special historical analysis did he do that is not available to a kindergartener? Is his book about Chinese things?

I detect nothing in these areas and so far no one has shown me anything either. This amounts to essentially zero credibility relative to the other sources.

Now... I put it to you.. would YOU accept some thesis that is contrary to virtually all published information on the word of a person who says "Trust me" and cannot show why you should?

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

And by the way, the twisting of their tails may be intended to suggest an amorous relationship between them. Snakes mate by twisting their bodies round each other.

You know.. somehow subconsciously I must have sort of seen that, because I have sort of a vague feeling about it, but your post made it much clearer! That was really interesting!

[Mike Reed]

By following some of the links in that Google search result, I found some useful information. Some of the drawings may be modern, but they are redrawings of ancient ones. The following for example is a vector graphic created by a website that sells this kind of stuff online:

See here for the page that sells it. But it is patterned after an ancient design. The following appears to be the original design on which it has been based:

Nu Wa and Fu Xi, holding a gui (compass) and a ju (square)

The above image comes from this site, which appears to be a respectable site on Ancient history. The image carries the caption written underneath it; and next to it is offered this explanation:

"Among the early beings were the male Fuxi and the female Nuwa. Nuwa created the first humans out of clay and Fuxi is said to be an early ruler. Other early rulers followed, including Shen Nong, who invented agriculture and, the Yellow Emperor, who invented pottery and the civilizing technology of writing."

Here is a blog post written in French, translated into English by Google. It shows the same designs, indicating that they are ancient, and has some interesting comments to make about them. This is what it says about that particular image:

"Among the coincidences or similarities raise questions in terms of the symbolism and traditions, there is this fairly well known representation of the couple Fuxi and Nuwa Chinese mythology, their bodies entwined by a snake and holding in his hand, the square, it the compass. I give here some reproductions

from ancient sources

."

The above is from an automatic translation made by Google, so it is not perfect; but it conveys the message clearly enough. And here is the image that it is referring to:

I have also just done a Google Book search using the search term "nuwa square compass," and found that there are hundreds of books written on the subject, all of which indicate (1) that the images are ancient; and (2) they depict a square and a compass. Click on the link to see them for yourself. Reading the "summary" passages extracted by Google next to each book is very revealing.

These are "reproductions" as I expected. You shouldn't use these as evidence. We need ancient sources in order to effectively support your position.

[Mike Reed]

All of the traditions I am aware of regarding her have her holding some form of compasses.\\

CFR. I want quotes from the primary sources, not commentary from secondary sources.

[Mike Reed]

No, these can't be a pair of compasses. Nuwa must be holding "scissors" in this one, too, right?

Yup.

[Nathair/|\]

And by the way, the twisting of their tails may be intended to suggest an amorous relationship between them. Snakes mate by twisting their bodies round each other. Here are some images:

Note especially the tangled tails in the above image.

A few years ago, the AODA held a large event in AZ for the spring equinox. Some classes had to be delayed because a pair of diamondbacks were mating on the ceremonial ground. It was taken as a very good omen for the event and the Order as a whole.

(Also, Nathair means serpent in Gaelic.)

Edited April 7, 2013 by Nathair

[Mike Reed]

Ancient Chinese Calipers.

http://history.cultu...H2758H7991.html

http://www.orientaldiscovery.com/html/2011/12/201112221028006125.html

vs.

Ancient Scissors:

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Another source that says they are scissors:

"Han period漢 (206 BCE-220 CE) stone bricks therefore depict Fu Xi and Nü wa with a human body ending in intertwining dragon tails, each of them holding an instrument of architects, namely scissors (ju 榘) and rulers (gui 規).

http://www.chinaknow...ersonsfuxi.html

The Author's credentials:

• Author: Ulrich Theobald (Tian Yuli 田宇利, style Shudouting 數豆亭 "The [man from the] Nitpicker Studio")
  
• "born in a poor family, he started loving books and especially the Confucian Classics already at the tender age of six"
  
• 1991-2000 Studies in Biology, Chemistry, Chinese Studies, Politics and Modern History at the University of Tübingen/Germany, and Nanjing University
  
• 2000 Master of Arts thesis "The Image of Empress Lü (died 180 BCE) in Chinese Literature and Historiography"
  
• 2009 Ph Dissertation "War Finance and Logistics in 18th Century China: An Analysis of the Second Jinchuan Campaign (1771-1776)"
  
• Teaching Chinese History at the Department of Chinese and Korean Studies, University of Tübingen
  
• Main research interests:
  
  • Empresses in Chinese history
    
  • Chinese financial and economic history
    
  • The history of science and technology in China
    
  • Comparative military history
    
  • Chinese lacquerwork
    
  • Paleography
    

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/About/about.html

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mike Reed

[bcuzbcuz]

I have been wondering this as well. The myths given by MM make sense in a mythological logic, I don't remember any myths about creation using scissors....knives, yes; scissors, no. And I've read a lot of creation myths over the decades though certainly not all of them.

You ask a question related to "mythological logic". I don't think such a thing exists.

I remember working on a children's book for the Carrier Sekani Tribe council that incorporated old stories as told by the elders of each village (Tl'azt'en, Yekooche, Nak'adzli). The elders told us that each story represented as much the "story teller" as it did the "story". The story changed depending upon who told it. Or as one elder said, related to how a story was told, "Some people got it, some people ain't". And he gave a sly chuckle and wink to all present in the group.

Just as each basket or jacket was a work of art depending upon who made it (and why, a jacket made for a tourist had no similarity to a jacket made by the same person for a loved one or as a Potlatch gift)), so each story was a work of art and therefore it was important to say "who" told the story as much as it was important to tell the story.

One story told the origin of the local name Nak'adzli, which has to do with arrows on the ice. Every spring, at winter ice break up, the Stewart (Nak'adzli) river is filled with broken twigs and branches. The elders say that these are arrows shot out onto the lake by the "mountain people". When the story was being put into picture form as a child's book, the artist (from England) had represented the "mountain people" as living in caves, shooting arrows into the air. The elders became quite upset. The "mountain people" they said, don't live in caves, they live in the mountain and shoot arrows while hunting. The artist said, "Well how do these "mountain people" get out of the mountain, if not by caves?" The elders got even more upset. They thought it was a stupid, undignified, question that challenged the very idea of the "mountain people". They explained, repeatedly, but the artist never did grasp the idea. The "mountain people" live in the mountain, of course. That is why they are called the "mountain people". Getting in and out of the mountain had nothing to do with the story. The important part was that the proof is evident to anyone who cares to look. Each Spring the ice is covered in arrows.

In a way their stories are much like Kipling's "Just So" stories, except the stories of the Dené people don't have 'morals' or ends that tie the story together, they just "are".

[mathonihah]

These are "reproductions" as I expected. You shouldn't use these as evidence. We need ancient sources in order to effectively support your position.

Says you, and (almost) nobody else. You have to scour the earth to find one or two questionable sources to back up your claim. I can find thousands of books that support mine. Did you click on the link to Google Books search results for "nuwa square compass" that I had provided, and especially note the relevant extracts from the books that Google had supplied next to each book? Try it. Some of these are quite reputable books, published by Oxford and other reputable publications.

I tried the same search for "nuwa square scissors" instead, and found zero results.

[CASteinman]

CFR. I want quotes from the primary sources, not commentary from secondary sources.

You actually want Chinese Documents? From people who don't read Chinese? That is over the top.

Edited April 7, 2013 by CASteinman