Freemasonry And Endowment?

[Mike Reed]

Why are the original archaeologists so certain?

Again... the book you quote was published in 1929. I think you need to read up on historiography, MM.

I merely quoted and referenced them.

To support your statement of fact. But the facts aren't so clear now, are they?

One would think that archaeologists would know a pair of scissors when they saw one.

One would think. Heh... well... You certainly would.

[Mike Reed]

“.... pure apologetics, a product of the will to believe, and a prize illustration of theological predispositions moving an intelligent man to render an unintelligent verdict.”

Dale C. Allison, The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2009), 21.

[Mike Reed]

"The faith of the historian lies in following the evidence wherever it will lead, rather than requiring the evidence to go where the historian desires."

Ralph Martin Novak, Christianity and the Roman Empire: Background Texts (Pennsylvania: Trinity Press International, 2001), 9.

[Mike Reed]

A task for you, MM. Provide pics of an ancient chinese compass, so we can then compare it to the images and see how closely it resembles.

Bump.

[MormonMason]

A task for you, MM. Provide pics of an ancient chinese compass, so we can then compare it to the images and see how closely it resembles.

I'll have to look around but something you are failing to do is to look at the context of the very veil your link to the masterpieces site discussed. And, yes, I am using the word veil because they are very thin silks and from influence of others who also have called them that on encountering them. I wouldn't want you to think I wasn't answering your question regarding that. But, to return to the context of the paintings at your links.

Did you happen to catch the other tools in the veil you referenced here? Look closely again at what you missed. You will see a plumb bob. That is an ancient construction tool. The context of the silk shows that these are building tools that are held by the gods in the creation of the world and of man. The gods hardly used scissors as a building tool in conjunction with a ruled set-square and a plumb bob.

Unfortunately, the veil you referenced here is badly damaged, and has been patched together, rendering the other tools difficult to see. But, you will see trace of another tool within the square. Typically, that is also a plumb bob in silks that contain them in that location.

In any case, you are failing to look at the surrounding context and other tools when using these sources to help you pontificate on the subject. The context says "building tools" and I know of no ancient builders who used scissors. Give me a break....

Edited April 6, 2013 by MormonMason

[CASteinman]

I honestly cannot tell by looking at them whether they are scissors or compass -- simply by looking at the images. I could see it either way.

But taken in context, I do not see how they would be scissors. They do not fit in with the context to be scissors.

Some of the images don't exactly look like compasses but those images look even less like scissors. And one of the images has features that I recognized from the Temple.

[Mike Reed]

I'll have to look around but something you are failing to do is to look at the context of the very veil your link to the masterpieces site discussed. And, yes, I am using the word veil because they are very thin silks and from influence of others who also have called them that on encountering them. I wouldn't want you to think I wasn't answering your question regarding that. But, to return to the context of the paintings at your links.

You called them veils, comparing them to the temple veil as a justification for why the symbols can be reversed, and yet still be on the correct sides. This is pure apologetic posturing.

Did you happen to catch the other tools in the veil you referenced here? Look closely again at what you missed. You will see a plumb bob. That is an ancient construction tool. The context of the silk shows that these are building tools that are held by the gods in the creation of the world and of man.

The one who holds the ruler also holds this other object (plumb bob?) you point out. Ok. Does this therefore indicate that the object carried by the second figure must not be scissors, but rather a compass? No... of course not.

The gods hardly used scissors as a building tool in conjunction with a ruled set-square and a plumb bob.

Oh brother... this conversation is going down hill fast. You honestly can't comprehend why a civilization, whose ecomony thrived from silk trade, might regard scissors as an important tool of creation? That's unbelievable. Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

A task for you, MM. Provide pics of an ancient chinese compass, so we can then compare it to the images and see how closely it resembles.

Bump.

[CASteinman]

The one who holds the ruler also holds this other object (plumb bob?) you point out. Ok. Does this therefore indicate that the object carried by the second figure must not be scissors, but rather a compass? No... of course not.

I actually consider that fairly convincing.

Oh brother... this conversation is going down hill fast. You honestly can't comprehend why a civilization, whose ecomony thrived from silk trade, might regard scissors as an important tool of creation? That's unbelievable.

Hmmm.. good point. No need to be condescending. Did they actually build using silk? They might have -- I don't know.

[CASteinman]

A quick search of the Internet by Google for the words Nuwa Square scissors returns only 3 hits, only one of them useful (that British Museum Link) and that one hit has a question mark by the word "scissors" indicating doubt.

Then another search for the words Nuwa Square compass returns a very large number of pages, most of them useful to a degree. One that I found most interesting was this one:

http://books.google....compass&f=false

Edited April 6, 2013 by CASteinman

[Mike Reed]

Compare the ancient scissors above to the veils' (so called by MM) imagery. Look at the depicted shapes of the tool in question. There are two basic designs for the tool... both resemble the two designs of ancient scissors shown above. Two for two! Find an ancient Chinese compass that is just as similar, or more similar, to just ONE of the two shapes. Can this be done? I have my doubts.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

Compare the ancient scissors above to the veils' (so called by MM) imagery. Look at the depicted shapes of the tool in question. There are two basic designs for the tool... both resemble the two designs of ancient scissors shown above. Two for two! Find an ancient Chinese compass that is just as similar, or more similar, to just ONE of the two shapes. Can this be done? I have my doubts.

I guess it boils down to your sense of how things look vs the statements of people who are experts on Chinese Mythology.

[Mike Reed]

I guess it boils down to your sense of how things look vs the statements of people who are experts on Chinese Mythology.

The curator, who cautiously concludes (using a question mark) that they are scissors, and who works for the museum that posesses the blue "veil," isn't an expert?

So... you aren't going to bother finding an ancient compass that looks more like the depicted object in question?

Again... both common designs for ancient scissors fit both designs for the depicted tool in question. You don't find that significant? You think I'm merely relying on my own senses when suggesting that they could very well be scissors? Really?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

The curator of the museum that posesses the blue "veil" isn't an expert?

Probably not.

Let me point out again, that he seems to be the ONLY person saying this, he is not sure of his assignment there and he may well not be an expert in Chinese Mythology.

Suppose, for example, that someone here calls him up, points out the discrepancy and he changes it to "compass(?)"? Or he changes it to "scissors or compass" .. would his level of expertise go down -- or up?

It would not change. He would be the same. Probably just as ignorant or insightful as before.

Your quote of one single doubtful authority is not the same as books and books and books by a variety of authors who state that this is a compass -- from the mythology.

Edited April 6, 2013 by CASteinman

[Mike Reed]

Probably not.

Let me point out again, that he seems to be the ONLY person saying this, he is not sure of his assignment there and he may well not be an expert in Chinese Mythology.Suppose, for example, that someone here calls him up, points out the discrepancy and he changes it...... He would be the same. Probably just as ignorant or insightful as before.

How about this scenario: Perhaps the curator of the British Museum of Art is well aware of the conflicting opinions, and understands that the matter isn't settled, and so he nevertheless concludes that they are scissors, but does so gently and responsibly by providing the question mark... since again, the matter isn't settled.

Your quote of one single doubtful authority is not the same as books and books and books by a variety of authors who state that this is a compass -- from the mythology.

Bandwagon appeal. Scholars have overwhelmingly assumed that cross taboo has always existed in Mormon culture, but I have shown that this was not the case. I am one person who has challenged the conclusions of all Mormon scholars who published on the matter.

It is a fallacy to merely appeal to popularity.

Again... my argument extends beyond relying on the curator's conclusion. Remember me pointing out that both depicted designs of the tool match the two common designs of ancient scissors? Find me a single ancient compass that just as closely, or more closely, resembles ONE of these depictions. Can it be done? Will you bother trying?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[CASteinman]

How about this scenario: Perhaps the curator of the British Museum of Art is well aware of the conflicting opinions, and understands that the matter isn't settled, and so he nevertheless concludes that they are scissors, but does so gently and responsibly by providing the question mark... since again, the matter isn't settled.

I would accept that as plausible if you could show me evidence that this is a well attested to conflict of opinions. I searched and found no other reputable opinions out there saying that they were scissors.

So.. can you show that?

Bandwagon appeal. Scholars have overwhelmingly assumed that cross taboo has always existed in Mormon culture, but I have shown that this was not the case. I am one person who has challenged the conclusions of all Mormon scholars who published on the matter.

Well, get out your pen and show how all the other experts on Chinese Mythology are wrong. Until you do that, the bandwagon is pretty nigh full of people who do not share your view. And as a person who cannot even read Chinese much less understand the details of their mythologies -- I am prepared to accept the words of experts on the matter.

Incidentally, what are your credentials?

It is a fallacy to merely appeal to popularity.

Only when it is MERELY popularity. But as I have pointed out, that is not really the case here.

Again... my argument extends beyond relying on the curator's conclusion. Remember me pointing out that both depicted designs of the tool match the two common designs of ancient scissors?

But you may have missed it- or maybe I did not bother to post it.. but .. I did not agree with you.

Find me a single ancient compass that just as closely, or more closely, resembles ONE of these depictions. Can it be done? Will you bother trying?

I tried, I was unable to find any ancient chinese compasses at all. Zero. So I cannot say either way. Have you found one to show your thesis? Will you bother trying?

And suppose you do? What do you do with the ancient myths -- myths recorded hundreds of years ago -- that are said to have it that this is a compass?

You do not get to run around declaring that other people are being illogical when your whole argument rests on two opinions: Yours (what are your credentials again) and a single doubtful website -- while at the same time ignoring hundreds of other sources that say otherwise.

That's not reasonable at all.

Its OK to question something but when there is a lot of evidence, compared to a pittance -- you should have a bit more humility.

Edited April 6, 2013 by CASteinman

[MormonMason]

I could not find a single example online of an ancient Chinese pair of compasses. I don't have access to my books since I am not home and with them. I think the British Museum might have one but they have no photo of the device. What it boils down to under the current circumstances is that we need to check the mythology itself to see what it might say, and/or what those knowledgeable in such things have to say about it, because it is the mythology itself that can help determine the intended identity of the device that is supposed to be in the hand of Nuwa. Here is what one author states about the mythology from Neolithic and legendary tradition:

It appears from these legends that civilization, i.e., ordered human life, begins with two personages, both portrayed as being semi-human and with mermaid tails, Nuwa and Fuxi, originally sister and brother, later became wife and husband after they had invented proper marriage procedures and family names to prevent marriages between people from the same family. Nuwa, in her own legend, had restored order between heaven and earth after a horrible catastrophy had caused heaven to tilt to the north so that it no longer covered all of the earth. This may refer to the first observation of the oblique ecliptic and the angle of the pole star. Nuwa found it necessary to reestablish the four cardinal points, which she did, thereby creating the prerequisites for further observations. In the oldest pictures of her she carries a compass, the instrument related to heavenly observations. Her brother Fuxi became the first legendary emperor, which also implies the establishment of government, of law and order. He is said to have invented the calendar to announce the seasons for the proper application of agricultural technology. Furthermore, he discovered the Eight Trigrams on the shell of a tortoise, and from this he developed the basis for writing, mathematics and the philosophy of cyclic changes in the evolution of nature. On another, more practical level, he is said to have invented adzes for splitting wood, the carpenter's square, ropes for hunting, and fishing nets. It is worthy of special attention that the two words for compass and square, gui ju, used together denote "the rule, custom, usage" and "good behavior" i.e., keeping order. Furthermore, it should be observed that the male-female system, the yang-yin philosophy is expressed here in a complex manner, first as Fuxi and Nuwa, second as compass (male) and square (female), and third as Nuwa (female) with compass (male) and Fuxi (male) with square (female). The compass-square dichotomy is similar to the heaven-earth, yang-yin relationship, which in this case means that man (Fuxi) establishes harmonious order between heaven and earth.

(Alfred Schinz, The Magic Square: Cities in Ancient China [stuttgart/London: Edition Axel Menges, 1996], 25; bold emphasis mine)

From a side note on the same page, describing an illustration of the two from one of the old depictions, the caption reads, in part:

Fuxi and his sister Nuwa, he with the carpenter's square and she with a pair of compasses....

(ibid.)

So, from this synopsis of the mythology of Fuxi and Nuwa, it is expected that she is carrying the pair of compasses. Since the Astana silk hangings depict these two mythological individuals, it would seem far more likely that she would be doing what is expected of her and carrying the instrument which she is known in the tradition to use, and that is the compasses. Of interest is another legend about her that I once read. In that legend, she plans the path of the heavenly stream. The compassed are a planning instrument in the designing and building process. It is a fitting emblem for her to carry. Given that the older depictions are identified as her carrying a pair of compasses, I have no reason to expect that they would change that aspect of Nuwa. Those who understand the legendry say they are supposed to be compasses.

I don't care what they look like. Insisting that they must be scissors because of their stylized appearance is akin to insisting that a particular inscription at Copan must be an elephant because it looks like one. You and I both know that it is a stylized Macaw. But, there are still those who insist that it is an elephant. Go ahead and continue to insist that Nuwa is holding scissors, if you wish. But, don't expect me to join you in that interpretation. Compasses better fits the legend, better fits the context of the other building tools of the creation, and fits what those who understand the mythology say about what it is that she holds. By the way, as you will note, this publication is a bit more up to date than the original report that I cited.

Edited April 6, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

A quick search of the Internet by Google for the words Nuwa Square scissors returns only 3 hits, only one of them useful (that British Museum Link) and that one hit has a question mark by the word "scissors" indicating doubt.

Then another search for the words Nuwa Square compass returns a very large number of pages, most of them useful to a degree. One that I found most interesting was this one:

http://books.google....compass&f=false

Thank you for posting that link. You saved me some typing and my hands already hurt quite a bit at the moment. At any rate, as you can see from this link and from the text that I provided, I think we can safely conclude that Nuwa is intended to be depicted with a pair of compasses in hand rather than a pair of scissors.

I'll be making a suggestion to someone I know that he contact the pertinent Museum personnel and ask them to look into what they have written on the British Museum website page for this item. We'll see what they do with the information. From previous experience, it usually takes about a couple weeks to a month after making a suggestion for them to alter the page after some research, and another day or so for their databases to catch up and display the changes to visitors.

Edited April 6, 2013 by MormonMason

[Mike Reed]

Mm said: I could not find a single example online of an ancient Chinese pair of compasses.

Me: Of course you couldnt, this doesn't change ur thesis, right? The nonpresance of the compass doesn't make a significant enough impact on the culture. no chance at all that it might challenge your conclusion. right? Hold to the rod, mm! At all cost, reject any possibility that ur evidence may be undermined. Reminds me of byu in the past decades encouraging the donation of many thousands of dollars (maybe even millions) on false pretenses.... Buying metal records, as though this proved something. but it didn't. Not in the slightest.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mathonihah]

Some of the images definitely appear to show a compass, but this kind of compass:

not the traditional looking compass. Here is one example:

Here is another:

This looks more like a traditional compass than a scissors:

And here are loads of modern images of that type of compass.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mathonihah

[Mike Reed]

Some of the images definitely appear to show a compass, but this kind of compass:

not the traditional looking compass.

[Mike Reed]

Some of the images definitely appear to show a compass, but this kind of compass:

not the traditional looking compass.

[mathonihah]

No comments? I have just edited my original post to show more images. Have another look.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mathonihah

[Mike Reed]

Yes, mathonihah ! U r right... We have evidence of this design. Anciently even!

The tool does not correlate with the compass... Although a compass may be found elsewhere. But not here.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mike Reed

[mathonihah]

The tool does not correlate with the compass... Although a compass may be found elsewhere. But not here.

What is that supposed to mean?