Abortion - Why Doesn'T The Church Make A Stronger Stance On It?

[changed]

The church makes webpages / news-releases / gets involved in court cases / tells people how to vote etc. etc. when it comes to marriage issues - but it seems like there is not as much involvement in the pro-life movement, and I was just wondering why not? Part of my family is Catholic, and they are always posting about pro-life stuff, bills that are in the works, or pro-life centers helping pregnant moms, or public statements where their leaders are advocating life - but it doesn't seem to be as much in the lime-light within the LDS church. Sure, the LDS church has family planning resources, but you have to search for them, and I don't recall too many statements in the media, or from the pulpit, about the issue. Sure there is some - but it is very sparse compared to what is said on other controversial topics.

Are LDS members not as pro-life as the Catholics?

Is marriage equality more important than protecting the lives of innocent children?

Are there any official statements about when life begins?

Should we be pushing the LDS church to get more into the pro-life battle than it currently is?

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Thanks!

[thesometimesaint]

The church makes webpages / news-releases / gets involved in court cases / tells people how to vote etc. etc. when it comes to marriage issues - but it seems like there is not as much involvement in the pro-life movement, and I was just wondering why not? Part of my family is Catholic, and they are always posting about pro-life stuff, bills that are in the works, or pro-life centers helping pregnant moms, or public statements where their leaders are advocating life - but it doesn't seem to be as much in the lime-light within the LDS church. Sure, the LDS church has family planning resources, but you have to search for them, and I don't recall too many statements in the media, or from the pulpit, about the issue. Sure there is some - but it is very sparse compared to what is said on other controversial topics.

Are LDS members not as pro-life as the Catholics?

Is marriage equality more important than protecting the lives of innocent children?

Are there any official statements about when life begins?

Should we be pushing the LDS church to get more into the pro-life battle than it currently is?

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Thanks!

1. We're every bit as pro-life as the Catholics. However we believe Agency is the most important element in our lives.

2. See Proclamation on the Family.

3. No.

4. No. We allow our members to make up their own minds

[Bikeemikey]

Are LDS members not as pro-life as the Catholics?

Is marriage equality more important than protecting the lives of innocent children?

Are there any official statements about when life begins?

Should we be pushing the LDS church to get more into the pro-life battle than it currently is?

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Thanks!

I don't think LDS are as pro-life as Catholics. Leadership handbooks contain (or have contained) specific instances where abortion is deemed to be one of a range of acceptable options - the Rape/Incest and life of the mother considerations. Last I checked the Catholics do have have such consideration.

Your second question is a biased question. Of course marriage equality is not more important than the protecting of innocent children. This is a thread about abortion... the debate itself questions the definition of "what is a child", and in the instance of the mothers health the definition of "what is innocent".

We clearly know that spiritual life begins before conception. We do not however know the precise relationship between spirit and body (be it in the fetus, children or adults). We do know that spiritual life is not ended with the taking of physical life, though we do not know when spiritual life joins the physical. No official doctrinal/scriptural statements on when life begins that I know of - anyone else.

No we should not be more involved in the legislative/political part of the pro-life battle. That does not mean we should not be aggressively involved in expressing our religious views and attempting to sway peoples moral judgements on the matter.

[Bikeemikey]

1. We're every bit as pro-life as the Catholics. However we believe Agency is the most important element in our lives.

2. See Proclamation on the Family.

3. No.

4. No. We allow our members to make up their own minds

We do allow members to make up their own minds but depending on the circumstances abortion may or may not result in church discipline.

[Tacenda]

TSS, we allow members to make up their minds on aborting a child but not to marry the same sex? Something is askewed here.

[thesometimesaint]

We do allow members to make up their own minds but depending on the circumstances abortion may or may not result in church discipline.

True; I don't see how it could work any other way.

[thesometimesaint]

TSS, we allow members to make up their minds on aborting a child but not to marry the same sex? Something is askewed here.

Under Church rules there are rare exceptions to the no abortion rules. No one is going to die, or be seriously injured for being in a same sex marriage.

[changed]

...we believe Agency is the most important element in our lives... We allow our members to make up their own minds

We do allow members to make up their own minds ....

What about the babies involved... do they get to make up their own minds? What about the agency of the child?

Of course marriage equality is not more important than the protecting of innocent children.

I agree. Abortion lies along the lines of the unpardonable sin, while homosexuality is very very far from that line. One of the main arguments against gay marriage is the welfare of the children - and if we are so concerned about the welfare of children, it seems abortion would be a much, much bigger issue - we should be hearing about it more, we should be involved with fighting against it more.

Also, when you consider that about 40% of women have abortions (and only about 2-3% struggle with homosexuality) it would seem to be a much larger problem, affecting many more of the members of the church.

Leadership handbooks contain (or have contained) specific instances where abortion is deemed to be one of a range of acceptable options - the Rape/Incest and life of the mother considerations.

I agree with the church's stance on this, but here's the thing - somewhere around 93% of all abortions are not performed for any of those reasons.

I think it's important to consider - not the rare outlier cases - but the more common reasons women are having them.

Is there anyone out there who would be interested in starting up a grassroots pro-life movement within the church? We could send letters to MormonMessages to make a few vids about it, we could petition someone to put together an official webpage about it (as they have for gay Mormons), and otherwise bring it into the limelight.

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"women who had abortions were 2.6 times more likely to die of suicide compared to women who delivered their babies." - link

Post Abortion Stress Syndrome...

Our girls are not getting the info they need... if we are concerned with "women's health", let's look at what this horrific procedure actually does to women's health, and educate those around us about it.

Let's make an official church website about it (as we have for gay Mormons), let's make videos about it, let's start talking about it more.

Edited March 30, 2013 by changed

[thesometimesaint]

What about the babies involved... do they get to make up their own minds? What about the agency of the child?

What about them? We have no doctrine as to when the spirit enters the body. Further the mind is one of the last things to wake up in a developing child. Do the rights of the fetus always override those of the woman? If a pregnant woman commits a crime. Is it against the agency of her baby growing inside her to be put in jail?

[changed]

What about the babies involved... do they get to make up their own minds? What about the agency of the child?

I agree. Abortion lies along the lines of the unpardonable sin, while homosexuality is very very far from that line. One of the main arguments against gay marriage is the welfare of the children - and if we are so concerned about the welfare of children, it seems abortion would be a much, much bigger issue - we should be hearing about it more, we should be involved with fighting against it more.

Also, when you consider that about 40% of women have abortions (and only about 2-3% struggle with homosexuality) it would seem to be a much larger problem, affecting many more of the members of the church.

I agree with the church's stance on this, but here's the thing - somewhere around 93% of all abortions are not performed for any of those reasons.

I think it's important to consider - not the rare outlier cases - but the more common reasons women are having them.

Is there anyone out there who would be interested in starting up a grassroots pro-life movement within the church? We could send letters to MormonMessages to make a few vids about it, we could petition someone to put together an official webpage about it (as they have for gay Mormons), and otherwise bring it into the limelight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"women who had abortions were 2.6 times more likely to die of suicide compared to women who delivered their babies." - link

Do you know what this is? - Post Abortion Stress Syndrome...

Our girls are not getting the info they need... if we are concerned with "women's health", let's look at what this horrific procedure actually does to women's health, and educate those around us about it.

Let's make an official church website about it (as we have for gay Mormons), let's make videos about it, let's start talking about it more.

[changed]

What about them? We have no doctrine as to when the spirit enters the body. Further the mind is one of the last things to wake up in a developing child.

Let's say you are a parent, and there is a 10% chance that the brakes on your kid's car are bad. Would you rather err on the side of caution? or just say "they probably won't die, so I won't worry about it".

The brain does not equal the spirit. The intelligence, and directive powers to form the body

:

[media=]

Do the rights of the fetus always override those of the woman? If a pregnant woman commits a crime. Is it against the agency of her baby growing inside her to be put in jail?

Children are often trapped by the mistakes of their parents, and it is a horror each time it happens.

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

(New Testament | Mark 9:42)

Edited March 30, 2013 by changed

[bluebell]

As lds we have different beliefs when it comes to when life begins than Catholics.

The catholic church teaches that life begins at conception. The lds church doesn't. This is why the lds church is not against hormonal birth control, which has the ability to keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, and the Catholic Church is.

It's also why the lds church believes that in very specific and rare cases abortion is allowable (after much prayer and counsel). We believe that God has the ability to declare that in some cases it is acceptable to end a pregnancy, because We don't believe that all fertilized eggs constitute life and we do believe that God will reveal (again in rare cases) when it doesn't, for the well being of His daughters who otherwise could not emotionally or physically survive the pregnancy.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The church makes webpages / news-releases / gets involved in court cases / tells people how to vote etc. etc. when it comes to marriage issues - but it seems like there is not as much involvement in the pro-life movement, and I was just wondering why not? Part of my family is Catholic, and they are always posting about pro-life stuff, bills that are in the works, or pro-life centers helping pregnant moms, or public statements where their leaders are advocating life - but it doesn't seem to be as much in the lime-light within the LDS church. Sure, the LDS church has family planning resources, but you have to search for them, and I don't recall too many statements in the media, or from the pulpit, about the issue. Sure there is some - but it is very sparse compared to what is said on other controversial topics.

Are LDS members not as pro-life as the Catholics?

Is marriage equality more important than protecting the lives of innocent children?

Are there any official statements about when life begins?

Should we be pushing the LDS church to get more into the pro-life battle than it currently is?

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Thanks!

I know of one thing where they even hinted at how one might vote...actually this was just something not up for general vote. I have never been told "how" to vote. We battle abortion and all others things the way the Prophet Joseph Smith taught..."Teach them correct principles and they will govern themselves".

[CV75]

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Thanks!

I think the translation between the moral circmstance, the Lord's commandment, and a society's law is less clear. Not much to argue about in relation to mariage being between a man and a woman--either the particpants are a man and a woman or they are not. Abortion is not so black and white. The Church has spoken out against abortion for selfish purposes (and against marriage for selfish purposes as well), but not in terms of voting.

[changed]

... for the well being of His daughters who otherwise could not emotionally or physically survive the pregnancy.

"women who had abortions were 2.6 times more likely to die of suicide compared to women who delivered their babies." - link

again, do you know what this is? - Post Abortion Stress Syndrome...

Our girls are not getting the info they need... if we are concerned with "women's health", let's look at what this horrific procedure actually does to women's health, and educate those around us about it.

[changed]

."Teach them correct principles and they will govern themselves".

I agree, let's teach the correct principles, let's talk about it more, let's make videos about it, let's educate people about it - let's talk about as much, if not more, than we talk about homosexuality.

Abortion is not so black and white.

It is a harder, more confusing issue, which I think means it should be talked about more. Women need to understand what the alternatives are, what the emotional repercussions are, that they are not alone. When people are afraid to talk about something, that's when problems arise, and everyone gets hurt. We should be a place that is open to talking about all the hard issues.

Edited March 30, 2013 by changed

[ksfisher]

It would seem to me that the church does not speak about abotion so much because we place such strong emphasis on the law of chastity and the sanctity of the family. These principles form the fence guarding us from the cliff. Abortion is the ambulence at the bottom of the cliff.

[bluebell]

"women who had abortions were 2.6 times more likely to die of suicide compared to women who delivered their babies." - link

again, do you know what this is? - Post Abortion Stress Syndrome...

Our girls are not getting the info they need... if we are concerned with "women's health", let's look at what this horrific procedure actually does to women's health, and educate those around us about it.

If God declares after serious prayer and deep soul searching that a girl pregnant because of rape or incest may get an abortion without His condemnation, would you really quote suicide stats to Him? Do you believe that God would allow abortion under such circumstances if the girl would be better off having the child?

The lds belief about when it is acceptable to have an abortion centers on the answer "only when God says it is, but under almost all circumstances it is not even acceptable to ask and almost always the answer is no when it is".

Given that belief, there really isn't any way to argue with the way the church handles this (without suggesting that God doesn't know what He's doing), unless the person wants to argue that life begins at conception.

And thats fine if that is what a person believes but it is not lds doctrine on the matter so when speaking to members of the church the arguments may not seem at all compelling.

Edited March 30, 2013 by bluebell

[MorningStar]

A friend of mine tried for many years to get pregnant, spent tens of thousands of dollars on fertility treatments, and when she finally became pregnant, the baby was growing into her cervix. There was no chance it could survive and it would have killed her if the pregnancy had continued. She was devastated when her only choice was to terminate the pregnancy or die.

Several Catholics I have talked to say there are no exceptions. So no, our church does not have the same view as Catholics, but we are very much against abortions of convenience.

[changed]

It would seem to me that the church does not speak about abotion so much because we place such strong emphasis on the law of chastity and the sanctity of the family. These principles form the fence guarding us from the cliff. Abortion is the ambulence at the bottom of the cliff.

I would not call abortion an ambulance - it is not a procedure that helps anyone, or brings anyone to safety. I think because kids are under such high pressure to have the perfect family, and to do the right things - that when they mess up, there is added incentive to hide what they have done - there is increased shame, and increased fear over talking about what to do. (Where have we seen that pattern before, and what has it led too? It's the same pattern that led to problems with gays, and the same problem that led to issues with pornography... everyone ashamed and hiding it, not talking about it, and creating a larger issue.)

This new bill just passed:

Utah governor signs 50 bills, including abortion-reporting law

Apparentlyit's been Utah's policy to "not talk about it", not report it, pretend it doesn't exist, and doesn't happen. That policy is changing, and I think it's good that it is changing. It's something that desperately needs to be talked about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pornography - there's another subject that too many people were too embarrassed to talk about for too long, and because people did not talk about it, and pretended that it was not an issue, and did not say anything about it - it became a major problem.

It's been my experience that what you do not talk about, is where the largest problems lie.

...Lets not obsess over it..

I don't think talking about it is "obsessing" over it. 40-50% of teenagers have sex before marriage - I don't know what the percentage in the church is, but I'm sure it isn't zero. I agree that it is good to teach good principles, but we also need to be willing to talk about what to do if they mess up. Not talking about it is a bad idea.

Several Catholics I have talked to say there are no exceptions. So no, our church does not have the same view as Catholics..

I agree that there are rare exceptions, and I agree with the church policy around that. I think opening up more dialog and awareness about it would be great though, so that everyone would find a larger support group to help them through whatever it is they are going through.

Edited March 30, 2013 by changed

[ERayR]

TSS, we allow members to make up their minds on aborting a child but not to marry the same sex? Something is askewed here.

Nope Tacenda your assessment is in error. The Church teaches the principles and allows the members to "make up their minds" on whatever the issue, be it abortion or SSM.

[ERayR]

I agree, let's teach the correct principles, let's talk about it more, let's make videos about it, let's educate people about it - let's talk about as much, if not more, than we talk about homosexuality.

I don't know what happens where you live but where I live correct principles are taught every Sunday and to our youth every Sunday, every Wednesday night and every weekday morning in seminary. Lets not obsess over it, let them think of other things too.

[changed]

If God declares after serious prayer and deep soul searching that a girl pregnant because of rape or incest may get an abortion without His condemnation, would you really quote suicide stats to Him? Do you believe that God would allow abortion under such circumstances if the girl would be better off having the child?

Even in cases of rape/incest, those poor girls need to understand the emotional trauma that having an abortion might bring - that having an abortion is not a "cure all" and that it might not make them feel any better, it might actually make them feel worse. They need to understand that the child is theirs too - with their eyes, their hair, their DNA - that two wrongs do not always make a right, that it could make a bad situation even worse.

I have a cousin who was the result of rape - going through the pregnancy, and seeing this beautiful child, can be a big part of the healing process for people going through this kind of thing. Having an abortion can make a bad situation worse, because now not only does the girl have to come to terms with a rape, she also has to come to terms with killing her own child. So yes, they need to know.

Given that belief, there really isn't any way to argue with the way the church handles this

My issue is not with the church's stance - but with the lack of programs / support / dialog / action for it. It's one thing to say something... it's quite another to act on what you say, to educate, support, raise awareness, talk about it so that girls facing it aren't afraid to come forward, and are not afraid to talk and seek help.

Edited March 30, 2013 by changed

[thesometimesaint]

Let's say you are a parent, and there is a 10% chance that the brakes on your kid's car are bad. Would you rather err on the side of caution? or just say "they probably won't die, so I won't worry about it".

The brain does not equal the spirit. The intelligence, and directive powers to form the body

:

[media=]

Children are often trapped by the mistakes of their parents, and it is a horror each time it happens.

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

(New Testament | Mark 9:42)

I don't have to pretend I am a parent of three now grown men, and have 5 grand-kids.

It is always a trade off. We can't prevent all bad things from happening to our children. Nor would be it right in doing so. Bad things are going to happen. We as parents try to minimize the number of and damage done when they do occur. Would that no abortions were ever necessary, but that is not the world we live in. I believe the Church has a short list of acceptable exceptions from the stated position of no abortions. These really are rare occurrences.

Incorrect. No brain, no intelligence, at least in this world. Unfortunately there are those that walk around without using very much of that brain, especially politicians.

I've never doubted that the fetus is alive. What we are debating is whether that life must by law take always priority over that of the woman's.

It is only a trap when we make absolutist claims about the rights of the fetus over the rights of the mother.

[ERayR]

I don't think talking about it is "obsessing" over it. 40-50% of teenagers have sex before marriage - I don't know what the percentage in the church is, but I'm sure it isn't zero. I agree that it is good to teach good principles, but we also need to be willing to talk about what to do if they mess up. Not talking about it is a bad idea.

My point was: It is talked about. Chastity is part and parcel of those curriculum. If the teachers aren't covering it them you have a local problem.