Restoring The Ancient Church?-Ancient Lds Church?

[volgadon]

So you can't say why you follow Joseph Smith?

I certainly can say why I follow God and what he restored through Joseph Smith, but what does that have to do with your transparent and disingenious attempt to paint Joseph Smith with the same brush as David Koresh?

[saemo]

Still on your accusatory rant, I see, with never a specific example of these imaginary dishonest parties, because you can find none.

When I attended a very informative and worthwhile course on Catholicism taught by a Paulist Father at Old St. Mary's in Chinatown in San Francisco nearly half-a-century ago, I felt very welcome, and was pleased at the frankness of that priest. The Church library even included the complete works of Martin Luther, and the priest was very open about discussing what motivated Luther. I think a Lutheran would have been pleased to find no hate or vilification in his description of those past events. It was my first introduction to Roman Catholicism, and it left me with a very high respect for that Church and its people. Even among my own coreligionists, I would brook no false statements or accusations -- believe me, I even made some enemies among my fellow Mormons when I forthrightly defended the good Roman Catholic people, priests, and nuns against loose accusations of insincerity. I was young and outspoken then, perhaps too brazen and intolerant of rumormongering.

And now you, Rebecca, spreading similarly ill-informed falsehoods and calling into question the basic decency and sincerity of good Mormons. You clearly know nothing about us, and have made no attempt to do so. I can't recall ever meeting a Catholic as intolerant and unkind as you. I know that your religion does not teach that sort of unchristian behavior, and I am puzzled as to what has created in you such fear of and loathing for Mormons.

So, you still don't want to discuss how Mormons use Catholic writings?

I don't loathe Mormons, but read your own words to understand why I am cautious around most Mormons.

[saemo]

I certainly can say why I follow God and what he restored through Joseph Smith, but what does that have to do with your transparent and disingenious attempt to paint Joseph Smith with the same brush as David Koresh?

I don't view them as the same, in terms of a lot of things. But no, I don't see a difference in following one person who claims to be a prophet over another who claims the same. Both have followers who believe that following the claimed prophet is the same as following God.

So that doesn't really tell me why you follow Joseph Smith, but I'm fairly certain you aren't taking the question seriously.

I am Catholic for several reasons, but particular to the Pope, I accept evidence for the continuity of Christ's Church, including the office that holds the keys given to St. Peter. Patriarch Bartholomew is also a successor to the Apostles. Khomeini, I don't know enough about Islam to comment.

Edited April 12, 2013 by saemo

[volgadon]

I don't view them as the same, in terms of a lot of things. But no, I don't see a difference in following one person who claims to be a prophet over another who claims the same. Both have followers who believe that following the claimed prophet is the same as following God.

So that doesn't really tell me why you follow Joseph Smith, but I'm fairly certain you aren't taking the question seriously.

So with those generalities is it thus fair to compare you to a follower of the Ayatollah Khomeini, or indeed, David Koresh?

[saemo]

So with those generalities is it thus fair to compare you to a follower of the Ayatollah Khomeini, or indeed, David Koresh?

In light of this http://www.worldmag.com/2013/04/army_reserve_presentation_calls_christians_extremists, I'd say the comparison can be fairly made. I can tell you what is different about my beliefs, the why's, and reasoning to my own decisions. Apparently, you cannot.

[volgadon]

In light of this http://www.worldmag....ians_extremists, I'd say the comparison can be fairly made. I can tell you what is different about my beliefs, the why's, and reasoning to my own decisions. Apparently, you cannot.

Apparently, you've mastered mind reading.

[saemo]

Apparently, you've mastered mind reading.

I just read what is posted.

[Robert F. Smith]

Why assume I am hating? Reality is reality. The LDS church is, by nature, in direct opposition to Catholicism. If that weren't so, there would not be thousands of Mormon missionaries in Catholic countries with the sole intent to remove people from their Catholic faith. Did you think this is looked on favorably by Catholics?

Pick a FAIR article, any article, that uses Catholic sources and I'll help you see the spin. Theosis vs. exaltation is always a good subject.

As for Catholic scholars, there are controversial works, which would you like to discuss? Hans Kung, Sister Elizabeth Johnson, Sister Margaret Farley, etc.

I don't hold any belief regarding people of various religious orders.

On this board we have ex-Mormons who have converted to Catholicism or to Eastern Orthodoxy. I have the highest respect for them. It would not occur to me to condemn them or stand in their way. I have even had friends convert to Judaism. I even accompanied a couple of them to the Chief Rabbinate in Jerusalem when they were in the process of conversion. I did not attempt to dissuade them, or say nasty things about their newly intended worship. In fact I have accompanied friends to worship services of their churches and synagogues, always with the utmost respect. I do not find the sincere worship of God to be suspect, regardless of denomination, although there are certainly some fraudulent groups out there which are in it for the money, fame, or power. One must not be foolish about such matters.

Mormon leaders frequently quote leaders of other religions. Mormonism is not averse to truth wherever it might be found. Quoting Mother Teresa is very popular among Mormons, and she is very much admired. Mormons utilize the good offices of Catholic Relief when contributing money for charitable efforts in areas where we do not have a physical presence. We have good relations with Roman Catholics on interfaith councils. I have not met Roman Catholics who hate Mormons -- until I encountered you on this board.

[volgadon]

I just read what is posted.

Ok, secret agent, I give up, I am a dishonest Mormon unable to tell the truth, and out to destroy Catholicism by quoting Catholic sources, thus turning everyone into Koresh follower-like mindwashed minions.

[saemo]

On this board we have ex-Mormons who have converted to Catholicism or to Eastern Orthodoxy. I have the highest respect for them. It would not occur to me to condemn them or stand in their way. I have even had friends convert to Judaism. I even accompanied a couple of them to the Chief Rabbinate in Jerusalem when they were in the process of conversion. I did not attempt to dissuade them, or say nasty things about their newly intended worship. In fact I have accompanied friends to worship services of their churches and synagogues, always with the utmost respect. I do not find the sincere worship of God to be suspect, regardless of denomination, although there are certainly some fraudulent groups out there which are in it for the money, fame, or power. One must not be foolish about such matters.

Mormon leaders frequently quote leaders of other religions. Mormonism is not averse to truth wherever it might be found. Quoting Mother Teresa is very popular among Mormons, and she is very much admired. Mormons utilize the good offices of Catholic Relief when contributing money for charitable efforts in areas where we do not have a physical presence. We have good relations with Roman Catholics on interfaith councils. I have not met Roman Catholics who hate Mormons -- until I encountered you on this board.

If that is what you need to believe, fine. Says more about you than me. Perhaps some day you will seriously consider that the concerns I have for the way that Mormons use Catholic sources is something worth thinking about. Until then, you can continue to imagine that Rebecca hates all Mormons.

[saemo]

Ok, secret agent, I give up, I am a dishonest Mormon unable to tell the truth, and out to destroy Catholicism by quoting Catholic sources, thus turning everyone into Koresh follower-like mindwashed minions.

Lol. I see ck has been talking about me. Too funny. Well, there is more to the story behind my chosen moniker, but it is rooted in my hedonistic, atheistic, strongly leaning feminist days. It doesn't fit any more, but here it is. I'd change it but then you wouldn't have a new shiny toy to play with.

You're such a freaking Mormon! Everything is meant to persecute you to the end of your days. Fine. Feel persecuted.

I'll play the apostate and be offended.

Edited April 12, 2013 by saemo

[volgadon]

Lol. I see ck has been talking about me. Too funny. Well, there is more to the story behind my chosen moniker, but it is rooted in my hedonistic, atheistic, strongly leaning feminist days. It doesn't fit any more, but here it is. I'd change it but then you wouldn't have a new shiny toy to play with.

You're such a freaking Mormon! Everything is meant to persecute you to the end of your days. Fine. Feel persecuted.

I'll play the apostate and be offended.

Oh no, I forgot to mention my persecution complex. I guess we can add absentminded to the list as well.

You yourself posted about your moniker here once.

[saemo]

Oh no, I forgot to mention my persecution complex. I guess we can add absentminded to the list as well.

You yourself posted about your moniker here once.

Oh, absentminded, yes, that is me. No denying that.

I apologize to ChristKnight then.

But I'm still calling you a Koresh robot, just because you seem to like it.

[volgadon]

But I'm still calling you a Koresh robot, just because you seem to like it.

Yes, my day is never complete without being termed a mindless cultist.

[cdowis]

I don't view them as the same, in terms of a lot of things. But no, I don't see a difference in following one person who claims to be a prophet over another who claims the same. Both have followers who believe that following the claimed prophet is the same as following God.

Joseph Smith is unique in the claiments for this divine mission, that he has a "cloud of witnesses" for various aspects of his mission, including the three and eight witnesses for the BOM, multiple shared visions of John the Baptist, the three apostles (including Peter), and a vision of Christ himself.

I am Catholic for several reasons, but particular to the Pope, I accept evidence for the continuity of Christ's Church, including the office that holds the keys given to St. Peter. Patriarch Bartholomew is also a successor to the Apostles.

I find it interesting that the early christian leaders did not show any special recognition to the bishop of Rome or his representative during the Council of Nicea. The emporer was running the show, and the representative from Rome was an equal among equals.

They did not recognize his unique authority, and neither do I.

[Ares]

saemo has been uninvited from this thread for not playing nice. (and a particularly aggregious Godwin's violation).

[mfbukowski]

And now you, Rebecca, spreading similarly ill-informed falsehoods and calling into question the basic decency and sincerity of good Mormons. You clearly know nothing about us, and have made no attempt to do so. I can't recall ever meeting a Catholic as intolerant and unkind as you. I know that your religion does not teach that sort of unchristian behavior, and I am puzzled as to what has created in you such fear of and loathing for Mormons.

I know Rebecca from the CAF board and if I have it right, she was raised Mormon and most of her family I think still is Mormon as well. She has discussed attending parties with the families of General Authorities, etc. and seems to be informed at least on a simple level- perhaps from primary, etc. of most of the basic doctrines of the church, with absolutely no understanding of the spirit which lies behind these beliefs.

Perhaps there is something in this that would answer your questions.

Edit- I just noticed that she was banned from the thread and apologize for any inaccuracies in the above- when she cannot defend herself, but I believe she actually mentioned some of this earlier on this thread

Edited April 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Yes, my day is never complete without being termed a mindless cultist.

Hey- who knows- you might get another line for your siggy!

[SamIam]

I know Rebecca from the CAF board and if I have it right, she was raised Mormon and most of her family I think still is Mormon as well.

I wondered if that wasn't who Saemo was, as I too recall her particularly cheery demeanor. We had many long running discussions that I found very entertaining. In a way I am sorry she was thread-banned - not that it was not justified but it was particularly challenging on the Catholic board to complete any conversation for the frequency and obvious bias that was shown to LDS posters while the Catholic posters could defame at will with narry a batted eye.

[cdowis]

I regret that saemo was escorted out of the room. I recently read the interchanges with her, and we were using a meathook approach -- very heavy handed.

The RCC has a credible claim as the legitimate church and very difficult to dislodge. The "gates of hell" argument cannot be so easily dismissed, and, frankly, our arguments were petty and silly.

Edited April 12, 2013 by cdowis

[Ahab]

I regret that saemo was escorted out of the room. I recently read the interchanges with her, and we were using a meathook approach -- very heavy handed.

I admit I was trying to stir some feelings within her, realizing what she's been taught and is aware of. There are worse things than being banned from a thread and maybe this still did her some good, even if only to let her true self come out so we can be more aware of her true convictions now. I'd always rather go deep than just have a shallow on the surface type of conversation, even if everyone is being nice. After all, we weren't saying anything to her that she wouldn't also feel she could say to us about which church is the true Church of Jesus Christ.

The RCC has a credible claim as the legitimate church and very difficult to dislodge.

Bull pucky. I can disarm that claim in an instant even if the person so disarmed still stands there in confusion and disbelief.

The "gates of hell" argument cannot be so easily dismissed, and, frankly, our arguments were petty and silly.

Maybe you just don't see what I see, but what I saw went pretty well except for the violation of Godwin's law, which seems to be a big deal around here. Knowiedge of what a proper baptism involves is all it takes to see which church is the true church of Jesus Christ, and without that a person can't even see the kingdom of God.

[MormonMason]

...The "gates of hell" argument cannot be so easily dismissed, and, frankly, our arguments were petty and silly.

It cannot so easily be dismissed because Hades is the realm of the dead. Period. It has gates that prevail against the dead by keeping the dead inside. The only way for the visible Church to have ever been put in a position to have an attempt at being prevailed against is to face the gates of Hades themselves, and they are in Hades. The only way to get there is to die. If the visible Church did die, then all talk of continuity of the visible Church from the time of the Apostles is moot. If it did not and was not to happen the promise of Jesus would make but little sense, if any at all, in my opinion. But it is something that cannot at any cost be admitted to by Catholics. It would be the undoing of all they hold dear.

Edited April 13, 2013 by MormonMason

[3DOP]

I regret that saemo was escorted out of the room. I recently read the interchanges with her, and we were using a meathook approach -- very heavy handed.

The RCC has a credible claim as the legitimate church and very difficult to dislodge. The "gates of hell" argument cannot be so easily dismissed, and, frankly, our arguments were petty and silly.

cdowis,

Thank you for your candor. I agree about the credible claim. Big surprise there, huh?

But it might come as a surprise that I think LDS have have dealt adequately with the argument many Catholics present for understanding Mt. 16 to say that the Church will never apostasize. Without proving us certainly wrong, you can offer reasonable alternatives. I have heard LDS alternatives that neutralize, if you will, the Catholic argument. That is why Mt. 16 carries only a little weight for me. Of course, admitting this as a Catholic, it is because the arguments presented by others against the claims of the Catholic Church appear to be similarly susceptible to "neutralization".

3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Christ has the "keys to death and hell" and preached to the dead, so of course hell's gates could not prevail.

We believe that our missionaries are in "spirit prison" (hell) preaching to those there- again an instance of the gates failure to "prevail".

Pretty simple as I see it. Rev 1:18

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

How can the gates prevail if He has the keys?

[cdowis]

Bull pucky. I can disarm that claim in an instant even if the person so disarmed still stands there in confusion and disbelief.

Interesting. I have seen the same claim regarding the LDS church.

I accept the challenge. I see you as a light weight, but I will be pleased to be proven wrong. I hope you don't mind my answering your arguments with counter claims in the history of the LDS church.