Utah Stake President Gets Political In Conference Talk

[gkearney]

In Australia one almost never hears political talk formal or informal in church. It is considered vulgar to talk of such in church. You also can not make assumption here as to the political leanings of church members they are as likely to be liberal as they are to be conservative.

[BCSpace]

voters last year chose "socialism over capitalism, entitlements over free enterprise, redistribution and regulation over self-reliance."

How is that not political??? It's nothing but the standard far-right talking points. He didn't mention Obama by name, but with words like that, did he need to? The implications are absolutely clear.

If these are his personal political views, then that's his right. But trying to inject them into a church sermon was overstepping his authority.

Here's the LDS Church's statement on political neutrality.

There is specific official LDS doctrine against Socialism (see my siggy on the LoC). Also, the principles of free market capitalism are part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and precisely mirror the way agency is set up in 2 Nephi 2. For example, the doctrine is that private property is the fundamental principle of the Law of Consecration. The Church's definition of "equal" and "equality" also precludes redistribution, entitlements, and regulation in this sense.

This SP was merely communicating the doctrine as applied to us and he was correct on all counts as reported.

[teddyaware]

No, I saw it. I just disagree with your application of it.

So the Brethren are not moving because they believe it will be Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois all over again? This also of course assumes that the Left is the enemy and that they are wicked and bloodthirsty and would kill them given the chance. It also assumes that we are still too weak to defend ourselves. I deny all of these erroneous assumptions.

In response to the above, I will first quote the following passages of scripture:

"11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 14)

So let me now describe what I think the above verses of scripture might be saying: It would seem, according to Nephi's prophecy, that we will come to a point in time in the last days when the world at large will be dominated by a force of rulership that will be at odds with Jesus Christ and his Church. Simultaneously, during this same period when the world will be dominated by this oppresive and aggresive system, which Nephi calls describes as "the whore of all the earth," the Church of Jesus Christ will have a much lesser presence in the world as compared to the dominions of the whore. Eventually, this oppressive anti-Christ system of rulership will, in wickedness, unite the world in in the common cause of attempting to destroy Christ and his people on the earth (shades of the war in heaven).

If I understand this prophesy aright, when that time does come, one cannot help but wonder if there will be those who will insist that the whore and her allies are being misunderstood and treated unfairly, are people of good will, not so bad after all, and that the prophesied time of the coming of the great whore of all the earth has not yet arrived. And one wonders if there might be some who will say "we should befriend, compromise with, and work along side the unfairly named whore, and her subordinates, in a spirit of good will so as to create a more harmonius and peaceful world." But could it be that if this time does come, these people won't realize that what they are seeking to do is tantamount to trying to compromise and work along side with the devil himself? And it could be that they will believe as they do because the devil has transformed himself, and the rulers of his kingdom on the earth, to appear as nigh unto angels of light?

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do... (Revelation 13)

[BlueDreams]

There is specific official LDS doctrine against Socialism (see my siggy on the LoC).

Last time I checked, I wasn't aware that student manuals constituted official LDS doctrine. Plus the quoted part on socialism doesn't infer a wholesale support of capitalism either. The purpose of that part was pretty clear: to make sure a man-made ideal wasn't given the same stature as a god-given system.In fact most of the statements mentioned in there could easily be described as reasons against capitalism as well (man-made philosophy, political in nature, dependent on the power of state for implementation, doesn't need God, etc). And it's not even against socialism, per se, as it is against any man-made governing order as being confused as the ways of the Lord. No man-made system is God's: democracy, socialism, communism, monarchy or any random assortment of isms/y's you can think of.

This SP was merely communicating the doctrine as applied to us and he was correct on all counts as reported.

No he wasn't. He set up a string of politically charged, worldly, false-dichotomies and gave it the stamp of approval by saying he felt it by the spirit. I take it with about as much umph as all the other random ideas that people believed in with heart and soul that are wrong and based on man's philosophy given a religious twist. Because that's exactly what it equals: Man made ideals given unwarranted Godly glory. It's political and a perfect example as to why politics do not belong in a church setting.

With luv,

BD

[thesometimesaint]

teddyaware:

Whenever that day is that day is not today. To use the Church to conflate such an organization with one of the two major political parties in the US is reckless and contrary stated Church policy.

[mapman]

It seems to me that it is a big problem when so many members of the church can't distinguish between Republican talking points (or any other party) and the gospel. Now that most Mormons don't live in the US, we American Mormons need to remember that most of us aren't Republicans. Looking at our history, we fared best when we weren't perceived as a voting bloc. I think that the Republicaness of American Mormons is largely a fluke of history. It hasn't always been that way and won't always be that way. I think in a few decades Mormons will just find this talk to be funny (or more likely, it will be completely forgotten).

[mapman]

"I don't understand how someone can be a Mormon and a Whig. Obviously the Anti-Masonic Party fits with the principles of the gospel." --what I imagine some early Saints thought.

[ERayR]

No he wasn't. He set up a string of politically charged, worldly, false-dichotomies and gave it the stamp of approval by saying he felt it by the spirit. I take it with about as much umph as all the other random ideas that people believed in with heart and soul that are wrong and based on man's philosophy given a religious twist. Because that's exactly what it equals: Man made ideals given unwarranted Godly glory. It's political and a perfect example as to why politics do not belong in a church setting.

With luv,

BD

What he did was enumerate things that had taken place or is now in the process of taking place in the lives of his congregation and expressed his a belief that they are tied to the tribulations of the end times.

Whatever you think of their significance please don't tell me you deny these things are happening or have happened. They are now part of the everyday life of you, me and the members of his congregation. They are issues that confront us all. He has not gotten partisan. He is speaking of issues. Good grief he is warning his congregation of what is ahead of them. To me that is his job. Would it make the critics happier if he got up and said "Don't worry all is well in Zion. Go about your happy lives and don't pay any attention to what is going on around you".

[volgadon]

If I understand this prophesy aright, when that time does come, one cannot help but wonder if there will be those who will insist that the whore and her allies are being misunderstood and treated unfairly, are people of good will, not so bad after all, and that the prophesied time of the coming of the great whore of all the earth has not yet arrived.

Funny how this is never posted when a Republican is in office.

[ERayR]

It seems to me that it is a big problem when so many members of the church can't distinguish between Republican talking points (or any other party) and the gospel. Now that most Mormons don't live in the US, we American Mormons need to remember that most of us aren't Republicans. Looking at our history, we fared best when we weren't perceived as a voting bloc. I think that the Republicaness of American Mormons is largely a fluke of history. It hasn't always been that way and won't always be that way. I think in a few decades Mormons will just find this talk to be funny (or more likely, it will be completely forgotten).

First he was talking about things that affect the lives of his congregation.

Second he was talking to a congregation in Utah USA and was not talking to anyone outside of that group.

[ERayR]

"I don't understand how someone can be a Mormon and a Whig. Obviously the Anti-Masonic Party fits with the principles of the gospel." --what I imagine some early Saints thought.

Come off it he did not mention, for good or evil. any person or party.

[volgadon]

Come off it he did not mention, for good or evil. any person or party.

Kind of hard to miss.

[ERayR]

Kind of hard to miss.

Sorry but if you notice your favorite person or party andd you perceive it as negative perhaps it is time to evaluate what they really are.

[thesometimesaint]

Classic McCarthyism.

[Saints Alive]

Classic McCarthyism.

I missed the part where the SP called for a witch hunt of democrat members.

Not that I wouldn't support such a thing

[teddyaware]

teddyaware:

Whenever that day is that day is not today. To use the Church to conflate such an organization with one of the two major political parties in the US is reckless and contrary stated Church policy.

First of all, you seem to be reading far too much into what I actually said. I said nothing about our pathetic, and all too often foolish, major US political parties -- both of them. Rather, I was making reference to wickedness in all its forms, regardless of where it's found. The devilish evils the saints will face in these last days will extend far beyond the influence of mere chicanerous political parties, and finger-to-the-wind politicians, but will creep into organizations, institutions and groups of every kind, size and description; it will even bore its way into the very fabric of everyday life. It seems, I believe, we as a race have already traveled far down the road that will culminate in the reign of the whore.

I was born in 1949, and have always been the kind of person -- even as a child -- who was careful to be observant of the Zeitgeist of each progressing year and decade. As a result, I believe the world is beginning to plunge headlong into a future-world where regard for the sacredness of sexual relations, the traditional family, and even life itself is being devalued more and more and, according to abundant prophecy, will all come to a head in the oppressive rule of the whore

The primary point I was trying to make in my previous post was that of an intended echo of that which is heard continually throughout the scriptures,. And the point is this: When a society begins to rippen in iniquity, the majority of the citizens are often totally blind to just how bad things really have gotten. They often end up like the people of King Noah -- totally unaware as to how tragically far down the road to fully ripened iniquity they had already traveled. Like so many others throughout sacred history, Noah's people were utterly oblivious to the fact that their destruction was near, even at the very doors...

8 ... And many things did Abinadi prophesy against this people.

9 And it came to pass that they were angry with him; and they took him and carried him bound before the king, and said unto the king: Behold, we have brought a man before thee who has prophesied evil concerning thy people, and saith that God will destroy them.

10 And he also prophesieth evil concerning thy life, and saith that thy life shall be as a garment in a furnace of fire.

11 And again, he saith that thou shalt be as a stalk, even as a dry stalk of the field, which is run over by the beasts and trodden under foot.

12 And again, he saith thou shalt be as the blossoms of a thistle, which, when it is fully ripe, if the wind bloweth, it is driven forth upon the face of the land. And he pretendeth the Lord hath spoken it. And he saith all this shall come upon thee except thou repent, and this because of thine iniquities.

13 And now, O king, what great evil hast thou done, or what great sins have thy people committed, that we should be condemned of God or judged of this man?

14 And now, O king, behold, we are guiltless, and thou, O king, hast not sinned; therefore, this man has ^blied concerning you, and he has prophesied in vain.

15 And behold, we are strong, we shall not come into bondage, or be taken captive by our enemies; yea, and thou hast prospered in the land, and thou shalt also prosper.

16 Behold, here is the man, we deliver him into thy hands; thou mayest do with him as seemeth thee good.

It has always been thus and, sadly, always will be. This sorry state of affairs is often made possibe by a diabolical tool the devil uses with great success -- it's called flattery.

[CV75]

It's interesting to ponder, especially in this hyper-sensitive politically correct age, but it wasn't so very long ago when some of our general authorities would not infrequently speak in General Conference about the proper role of secular governments and cogently warn against of the evils and encroachments of improper (i.e. unconstitutional) government. The recent conference address of this Stake President is a throwback to those days, when leaders like Ezra Taft Benson and J. Ruben Clark would, without hestitation or apology, say things openly in General Conference that would cause a major controversey and even upheaval if spoken today. So there actually was a time in recent Church history when, according to today's standards anyway, some of our leaders seemed to cross the line of political neutrality that we dare not cross today.

I believe the General Authorities are well aware of the very real dangers that threaten to destroy our freedom, our religion and our families, but confronting these forces openly and directly would be very counterproductive to our missionary work and to the image and perception of the Church in the secular world and popular culture, so of necessity they hold their peace. I believe the Lord will allow the wheat and tares of the world to grow together without much interference from above. But eventually, once the point of ripening in iniquity has been reached, the Lord may very well command his servants to expose the anti-Christ forces of that day. Time will tell...

Yes, times and needs change, and the Lord’s anointed will lead accordingly under His inspiration. I do not know why they are holding their peace about political situations, if that is indeed what they are doing, but one good reason I think they would move from emphasis to emphasis on any subject is that a threshold of saints knows what to do by the power and Gift of the Holy Ghost as leaven for the rest of the world, and it is time to move on to the next message. Another good reason is that it’s “foolish virgin time” on whatever subject no longer gets the emphasis.

[volgadon]

Sorry but if you notice your favorite person or party andd you perceive it as negative perhaps it is time to evaluate what they really are.

Really? I've never voted in the USA, and I can't stand Obama. Doesn't mean that the stake president's references weren't blindingly obvious.

[teddyaware]

Yes, times and needs change, and the Lord’s anointed will lead accordingly under His inspiration. I do not know why they are holding their peace about political situations, if that is indeed what they are doing, but one good reason I think they would move from emphasis to emphasis on any subject is that a threshold of saints knows what to do by the power and Gift of the Holy Ghost as leaven for the rest of the world, and it is time to move on to the next message. Another good reason is that it’s “foolish virgin time” on whatever subject no longer gets the emphasis.

Good points. In the October 1988 conference, President Ezra Taft Benson warned the church that the great worldwide secret combination, prophesied in Ether chaper 8, was, even then in the process of taking over control of the government of the United States (that's almost 25 years ago). At the time, I remember that his dire warning didn't cause so much as even a faint ripple of controversy in or out of the Church.

This was very big news indeed! But the pronouncement seemed to go right over nearly everyone's head. Personally, I was totally dumbfounded and disturbed to hear the awful news, but not one person has ever mentioned this momentous prophetic pronouncement to me even once from then till now. But you can be sure the if the pronouncement were ere remade or reiterated in a General Conference today, we'd never hear the end of it. It would probably even usher in a new wave of presecution.

Like the Prophet Joseph Smith once wisely said, it's often smart to not fully expose wickedness before the time is right and ripe. Perhaps it's fortunate that there are many today who think President Bensen was a bit kooky and fanatical; that way his dire warning will not likely come back to haunt us, even though he said what he said as the Prophet. As for me, I love, deeply respect and wholly believe President Benson and don't think he was at all kooky, but sober and right on the mark. Nevertheless, this perception by many that he was a far right winger will likely enable us to dodge the bullet if his his prophetic remarks are ever used against the Church in the future.

[ERayR]

Really? I've never voted in the USA, and I can't stand Obama. Doesn't mean that the stake president's references weren't blindingly obvious.

I didn't think you had. What I didn't say very well is in a time of hypersensitive political correctness often too much is read into what someone says. As I said I read it twice and if I were looking at it with a hypersensitive view I would say both sides of the US political spectrum was taking a hit. Instead what I got was a warning of trends that he felt were counter to gospel principles. You may not agree with his outlook but take him at his word. "Now, I want to make it clear that it is not my intent today to be controversial, political, or even dire"

[gkearney]

Somehow I suspect that this stake is in line for a new stake president.

Perhaps that was his plan all along. About the fastest way to get a release as stake president, short of doing something that could get you excommunicated or moving, is to say something that Church Public Affairs then has to respond to.

[The Nehor]

Well, makemsure the leftists are not fluoridating our water while you are investigating this conspiracy.

[volgadon]

Well, makemsure the leftists are not fluoridating our water while you are investigating this conspiracy.

Arafat's wife actually accused Israel of that. By then, I had already seen the movie...

[blackstrap]

Is the topic of abortion political? Sure. Can a Stake President speak about it in church? I would think so. Each political party has a position on abortion,some clearer than others. The media and academic have positions on it. Most religions have a position on it.

The current mayor of NY has a position that ,for all intents and purposes, abortion is strictly a woman's decision and the State will not interfere for any reason. The LDS Church's position is considerably less liberal. Is God allowed to have a position on it?

[blackstrap]

Has the LDS Church ever made any statements on DEBT and/or individual self reliance ? Would such statements have any application to state or national situations? Maybe some members just assume there is a connection from individuals to governments when there really is not.